Praying to the dead - not Saints

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Worse!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. (Mark 12:24, 46-27)

“O ye spirits and souls of the righteous, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever.” (Song of the Three Youths 1:64)

If you do not believe this is scripture, then open the Bible and tell me where it says which books belong in it.

“O ye angels of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever.” (Song of the Three Youths 1:37)

Sounds Like:

“Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.” (Psalm 103:22-23)

raise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts." (Psalm 148:2)

Pax Vobiscvm

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

The Practice of asking for the intercession of Saints is stemmed in Judaism. On Yom Kippur the Jews would ask their deceased relatives to pray for them.

And many Jews deny that Jesus is the Christ! Must we believe that also? ( I say this SUPPOSING that what you say about the Jews is true )

Why do you insist on human authorities?

In Love,

Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

And many Jews deny that Jesus is the Christ! Must we believe that also? ( I say this SUPPOSING that what you say about the Jews is true )

Why do you insist on human authorities?

In Love,

Yaqubos†

But how do you know that the Bible is Divine Inspired?

Pax Vobiscvm

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. (Mark 12:24, 46-27)

“O ye spirits and souls of the righteous, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever.” (Song of the Three Youths 1:64)

If you do not believe this is scripture, then open the Bible and tell me where it says which books belong in it.

“O ye angels of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever.” (Song of the Three Youths 1:37)

Sounds like:

Pax Vobiscvm

The dead saints are dead for us, but NOT for God. We agree on this.

Although those passages are not Scripture, but they don’t say anything about dead people hearing us.

By the way: it is not me who have to prove to you they don’t belong in the Bible. You have to prove that they belong! Because the whole Church did never believe they are Scripture!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

The dead saints are dead for us, but NOT for God. We agree on this.

Although those passages are not Scripture, but they don’t say anything about dead people hearing us.

By the way: it is not me who have to prove to you they don’t belong in the Bible. You have to prove that they belong! Because the whole Church did never believe they are Scripture!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

The Whole Church did not believe that the Book of Revelation was scripture either.

But how do you know this Book is Divine Inspired?

The Psalms do state we can call on the Intercession of Angels, they are Saints too.

Pax Vobiscvm

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

The dead saints are dead for us, but NOT for God. We agree on this.

Although those passages are not Scripture, but they don’t say anything about dead people hearing us.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Pax Vobiscvm

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and** twenty elders** fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” (Revelation 5:6-8)

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Why do you insist on human authorities?

In Love,

Yaqubos†

Pax Vobiscvm

You know, I could never get how Christ would willingly celebrate the Jewish festival of Hanukah, when it’s not mentioned in scripture (Is he insisting on human authorities?). But Hanukah is mentioned in the Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, there’s two whole books on the subject.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

The Whole Church did not believe that the Book of Revelation was scripture either.

Wrong! The whole People of God believed in that book as Word of God. Some doubted it, but those “some” do not make “the WHOLE Church of God”.
Psalm45:9:

But how do you know this Book is Divine Inspired?

That’s a secret, right?
Psalm45:9:

The Psalms do state we can call on the Intercession of Angels, they are Saints too.

Any verse or passage to prove this heretical teaching?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and** twenty elders** fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” (Revelation 5:6-8)

Amen! Our prayers that are addressed TO GOD ( and not to saints ), are presented to God and are described here SYMBOLICALLY.

What is the purpose of quoting this verse? Do you want to emphasize on the fact that when we pray to God, He hears our prayers?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Sarah_Jane]

YAQUBOS:

Peace!

Amen! Our prayers that are addressed TO GOD ( and not to saints ), are presented to God and are described here SYMBOLICALLY.

What is the purpose of quoting this verse? Do you want to emphasize on the fact that when we pray to God, He hears our prayers?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

We see here that God hears our prayers by the intercession of the saints.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm!

‘Wrong! The whole People of God believed in that book as Word of God. Some doubted it, but those “some” do not make “the WHOLEChurch of God”’.

OK, then that should also apply to The Song of the Three Youths,

‘“Some” do not make “the WHOLE Church of God”’.

Remember?

The Revelation of Peter was held in higher favor then The Revelation of John. The Eastern Orthodox today believe that The Revelation of John is divine inspired, but not part of the canon. (Books that are to be read in church)

“That’s a secret, right?”

Don’t give me a circular answer, just tell me, how do you know?

“Any verse or passage to prove this heretical teaching?”

Anyone who is in Heaven is a Saint. Angels don’t die, so we’re not contacting the dead.

“Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.” (Psalm 103:20-21)

“Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.” (Psalm 148:2)

“O ye angels of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever.” (Song of the Three Youths 1:37)

Here they’re asked to intercede. (I posted them before, you only had to look.)

“And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.” (Revelation 8:3-4)

“Now therefore, when thou didst pray, and Sara thy daughter in law, I did bring the remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One: and when thou didst bury the dead, I was with thee likewise… I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One.” (Tobit 12:15)

Here the angels do intercede for us.

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace!

Amen! Our prayers that are addressed TO GOD ( and not to saints ), are presented to God and are described here SYMBOLICALLY.

What is the purpose of quoting this verse? Do you want to emphasize on the fact that when we pray to God, He hears our prayers?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

That’s the point, through the Saints, just like it said. Please don’t ask you friends and family members to pray for you. “Our prayers that are addressed TO GOD ( and not to saints )” Anyone who has faith in Christ is a Saint. Living here or in Heaven.

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Wrong! The whole People of God believed in that book as Word of God. Some doubted it, but those “some” do not make "the

WHOLE Church of God".

Pax Vobiscvm

Jerome

‘“What sin have I committed if I follow the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating [in my preface to the book of Daniel] the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susannah [Dan. 13], the Song of the Three Children [Dan. 3:29–68, RSV-CE], and the story of Bel and the Dragon [Dan. 14], which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they are wont to make against us. If I did not reply to their views in my preface, in the interest of brevity, lest it seem that I was composing not a preface, but a book, I believe I added promptly the remark, for I said, ‘This is not the time to discuss such matters’” (Against Rufinius 11:33 [A.D. 401]).’ (Keating, 2004)

Council of Rome

’“Now indeed we must treat of the divine scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book, Ecclesiastes, one book, [and] Canticle of Canticles [Song of Songs], one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus [Sirach], one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books” (Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]).’ (Keating, 2004)

Work Cited

Keating, Karl The Old Testament Canon

Catholic Answers 2020 Gillespie Way, El Cajon, CA 92020 USA

catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp

 

[edwinG]

Stylteralmaldo:

I don’t think you would be able to persuede a non-Catholic using this argument. A non-Catholic would probably be more willing to accept the argument if Peter, James or John spoke to Moses and Elijah.

Of course, since Jesus was fully human…it does hold some weight. But he was also fully divine…

It really boils down to who has the authority to interpret as to whether it is ok to ask saints to intercede for us…The Catholic Church.

Hi Stylteralmaldo,
I would have to agree with you that if Moses and Elijah came down to you on earth, that you should talk to them.
Dont you see that Jesus only ever followed the Holy Spirit and this event is obviously led by the Holy Spirit. Did Jesus either before or after this event pray to Moses or Elijah. We dont have evidence of this, in fact their being on earth is more evidence against your position than for it, as Jesus could not pray To them they had to come down to earth.
Imagine if Jesus had prayed to someone other than His Father. Wow there would be world wide acceptance of this practise.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Dave:

We pray to Saints because the Church confirms to us that they are in heavan. Is it ok to pray to people close in our lives who have passed away (even though we can’t confirm that they are in heaven)? If they’re still in Purgatory, can they still intercede on our behalf?

Yes, they can intercede on our behalf. They cannot, however, do anything for themselves which is why praying for the Souls in Purgatory is so important. So, when you pray to a loved one offer up a prayer for their release from Purgatory as well. And I personally wouldn’t stop praying for this and assume someone is in heaven.

Have any of you been to a funeral and the eulagy made it sound as though they were in Heaven already? Even if they were jerks? I think this is one of the worst things that has happened to Catholic funerals.

 

[edwinG]

Sarah Jane:

Our prayers for a friend are not always answered. Do you think that the prayers for our friends are bad?

Hi Sarah Jane,
Your prayers are always always answered. A full stop. You and I are without wisdom. God loves us and He does what is for our best. Even no answer is an answer. It means keep on going as you are, dont change anything. Why, maybe the time is not right or maybe maybe maybe.

This story looses so much by shortening it, but try to fill in the missing pieces.
I wanted to give up smoking and tried and tried and prayed and sometimes I thought I had prevailed. My wife who is Thai hated my smoking. She would buy cigarettes for me etc but when I gave up smoking she was so happy so when I took it up again we would argue. Well this happened many times and eventually I said to her, Can you add anything new to what you have said on every occasion we have had this conversation. She said No. I said I cant add anything new either. These arguements are killing us. Let us never talk about this again because now I am too scared to try to give up because if I fail it will cause another arguement. So we agreed to never discuss this again. My wife is still Buddist. Some time after we went on a holiday together. About 5/6 days. Then on Thursday we went back to work. On Friday morning I went to throw out an empty bottle of beer and to empty an ashtray. I threw away the ashtray and held onto the empty bottle. Now I had had many experiences with Christ and instantly I knew He had injected Himself into my life. So I sat down and had a cigarette and thought about it. I decided it was Christ and I had to stop. So I did, but that evening when I was drinking and playing snooker, I lit up. I put the cigarette in the ashtray to take my turn and when I came back the cigarette had fallen out of the tray and was burning the table. I told God that was unfair to hurt a third party. I stopped, I think but after snooker,played during daylight, in the early evening we went to a golf driving range which was our habit. A Thai man who could not hit a golf ball past his left foot sneezed and I said “God bless” and he said it was my cigarette smoke. He said I wasnt allowed to smoke. I told him I smoked every time and the staff provide ashtrays. He kept on and then he pointed to a sign on the toilet door saying " no smoking" I knew what it was about so I put the cigarette out. However the next day at lunch time, when I was having a beer with my friends I borrowed a cigarette and lit up. I was holding the cigarette and it just fell out of my hands. By this time I was scared. That night I told Tui, my wife what was happening and I had to give up smoking. She said that when we went on holidays she realised just how much I smoked and was scared , and because she could not talk to me, on Thursday night she prayed to Jesus.
Christ be praised. What wisdom. My wife is still a buddist but stubborn as she is , she is slowly realising the truth. I am a hindrance to her as well because of my efforts to cling to Jesus. Not many people would be able to accept my lifestyle. My wife is God’s blessing to me.
Christ be with you
never doubt that your prayers are answered. Just believe and be patient in Faith.
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Stylteralmaldo:

I will concede this much (as I have indicated in my post above), it appears the request was denied…but the rich man was in “hades” - not in purgatory.

Let me issue this warning as it pertains to discernment. Many in the past have claimed the Holy Spirit has led them to the correct conclusion as to the best way to know Christ’s will for us…and have fallen off of the path to Christ.

I know the Catholic Church is true and it is filled with the Holy Spirit. I am hoping you come to the same conclusion someday edwinG.

God bless you.

Hi Stylteralmaldo,
What you say is true, many make this claim. I do not want to change anyones belief. I dont want to tear you away from the catholic church. You believe in Christ. What I do want though is to have you accept a real and active presence of the Holy Spirit in your life. I want this because it will bring you joy.It will bring you closer to Christ. It is in agreement with your scripture and your understanding of the scripture. There is no conflict between your scripture and the Holy Spirit. I want to bring Him alive to you in you life, not to let Him lie as some spoken words. Active active active.
Possible later we can talk about purgatory and hades.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

wisdom 3:5:

We’re not “talking” to them as in divination. We are praying for them and asking them to pray for us.

Hi wisdom,
Can you comment on the two bold words. Is the "for " really “to”
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

** What prayers are efficacious?** The Sacrifice of the Mass has always occupied the foremost place among prayers for the dead, as will be seen from the testimonies quoted above; but in addition to the Mass and to private prayers, we have mention in the earliest times of almsgiving, especially in connection with funeral agapae, and of fasting for the dead (Kirsch, Die Lehre von der Gemeinschaft der Heiligen, etc., p. 171; Cabrol, Dictionnaire d’archeologie, I, 808-830). Believing in the communion of saints in which the departed faithful shared, Christians saw no reason for excluding them from any of the offices of piety which the living were in the habit of performing for one another. The only development to be noted in this connection is the application of Indulgences for the dead. Indulgences for the living were a development from the ancient penitential discipline, and were in use for a considerable time before we have any evidence of their being formally applied for the dead. The earliest instance comes from the year 1457. Without entering into the subject here, we would remark that the application of Indulgences for the dead, when properly understood and explained, introduces no new principle, but is merely an extension of the general principle underlying the ordinary practice of prayer and good works for the dead. The church claims no power of absolving the souls in purgatory from their pains, as on earth she absolves men from sins. It is only per modum suffragii, i.e. by way of prayer, that Indulgences avail for the dead, the Church adding her official or corporate intercession to that of the person who performs and offers the indulgenced work, and beseeching God to apply, for the relief of those souls whom the offerer intends, some portion of the superabundant satisfactions of Christ and His saints, or, in view of those same satisfactions, to remit some portion of their pains, in what measure may seem good to His own infinite mercy and** love i still do pray for my granma i know she was a good person,always helping others. bless you all**

Hi myra hart,
I have bold typed a portion of your last sentence, in which you say, pray for my granma.
This is a lot different than praying “to”
It is the praying “to” that I do not understand.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Sarah Jane:

We see here that God hears our prayers by the intercession of the saints.

Where do you find intercession of saints in that verse? Do you mean the elders? Well, if yes, then let me ask you: do you have 24 saints in Heaven, or a little more?..

I told you: our prayers are presented to God in Heaven, and this is described SYMBOLICALLY. If you want to accept the 24 as a symbol, then you must understand what it symbolizes.

In Love,
Yaqubos†