Praying to the dead - not Saints

[edwinG]

Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm!

*‘Wrong! The whole People of God believed in that book as Word of God. Some doubted it, but those “some” do not make “the *WHOLEChurch of God”’.

OK, then that should also apply to The Song of the Three Youths,

‘“Some” do not make “the WHOLE Church of God”’.

Remember?

The Revelation of Peter was held in higher favor then The Revelation of John. The Eastern Orthodox today believe that The Revelation of John is divine inspired, but not part of the canon. (Books that are to be read in church)

“That’s a secret, right?”

Don’t give me a circular answer, just tell me, how do you know?

“Any verse or passage to prove this heretical teaching?”

Anyone who is in Heaven is a Saint. Angels don’t die, so we’re not contacting the dead.

“Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.” (Psalm 103:20-21)

“Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.” (Psalm 148:2)

“O ye angels of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever.” (Song of the Three Youths 1:37)

Here they’re asked to intercede. (I posted them before, you only had to look.)

“And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.” (Revelation 8:3-4)

“Now therefore, when thou didst pray, and Sara thy daughter in law, I did bring the remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One: and when thou didst bury the dead, I was with thee likewise… I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One.” (Tobit 12:15)

Here the angels do intercede for us.

Hi Psalm45:9
Do you equate angels as saints?
I thought that angels were messengers of God. I thought saints were those who died to earth and were in Christ.
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm!

*‘Wrong! The whole People of God believed in that book as Word of God. Some doubted it, but those “some” do not make “the *WHOLEChurch of God”’.

OK, then that should also apply to The Song of the Three Youths,

‘“Some” do not make “the WHOLE Church of God”’.

The whole Church did never accept that Song as Scripture.
Psalm45:9:
“That’s a secret, right?”

Don’t give me a circular answer, just tell me, how do you know?

Don’t you believe that the Bible is the Word of God? Am I arguing here with a pagan so that I will need to explain the whole matter about the Bible?

“Any verse or passage to prove this heretical teaching?”

Anyone who is in Heaven is a Saint. Angels don’t die, so we’re not contacting the dead.

How do you talk to an angel? Is an angel everywhere like God?

“Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.” (Psalm 103:20-21)

“Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.” (Psalm 148:2)

The angels and all creatures must praise the Lord. So where do you find in those verses living people talking to dead people to pray for them?
Psalm45:9:

Here they’re asked to intercede. (I posted them before, you only had to look.)

Really? Tell me, how is praising an intercession?

“And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.” (Revelation 8:3-4)

Again and again… Those prayers are not addressed to any angel, but to GOD! The angel came and took them FROM THE ALTAR!

So the question remains: how can you talk to dead saints?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

just like it said. Please don’t ask you friends and family members to pray for you. “Our prayers that are addressed TO GOD ( and not to saints )” Anyone who has faith in Christ is a Saint. Living here or in Heaven.

You don’t need to address a PRAYER to a living saint. You just talk to him personally, or you send him a mail, or whatever… I didn’t see anyone living in Asia ( unless a pagan or a believer in New Age ) praying to his mother who is living in America. He just takes the right way by sending her a mail or calling her.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Pisio]

YAQUBOS:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psalm45:9
"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand." (Revelation 8:3-4)

Again and again… Those prayers are not addressed to any angel, but to GOD! The angel came an took them FROM THE ALTAR!

Yaqubos†
Exactly!
The angel presented the prayers to God on behalf of the pray-ers. It acted as an intercessor. The prayers of the saints were taken to God by and intercessor… Not that hard to grasp really…
In Christ, with Mary,
Pisio

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

You don’t need to address a PRAYER to a living saint. You just talk to him personally, or you send him a mail, or whatever… I didn’t see anyone living in Asia ( unless a pagan or a believer in New Age ) praying to his mother who is living in America. He just takes the right way by sending her a mail or calling her.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Pax Vobiscvm

But are your friends everywhere like God? Why ask them to pray for you, just go to God. “Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.” (Acts 8:24) This must be a symbol too, just like Rev 8:5, right?

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:
The whole Church did never accept that Song as Scripture.

Don’t you believe that the Bible is the Word of God? Am I arguing here with a pagan so that I will need to explain the whole matter about the Bible?
Pax Vobiscvm

I see you ignored St. Jerome’s comment, he is the man who wrote the Latin Vulgate. You’re still not telling me why you believe the Bible is the Word of God, am I talking to a Pagan that worships a book?

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

How do you talk to an angel? Is an angel everywhere like God?

The angels and all creatures must praise the Lord. So where do you find in those verses living people talking to dead people to pray for them?

Really? Tell me, how is praising an intercession?

Pax Vobiscvm

“And the *** saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the *** turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ***, to turn her into the way.” (Numbers 22:23)
Balaam does not see the Angel, but he’s there.

“And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.” (Numbers 22:34)

Balaam speaks to the Angel.

“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 18:5)

Since we do not know when we are in the presence of Angels, we must be constantly good, for they stand before God, telling him about us. Notice how he used the word “Their”.

If we do not know when they our in our presence, they could be around us right now, so we can ask the messenger of God to relay a message for us.

“YAQUBUS, praise the Lord.” Wherfore I pray thee? I just told you to praise the Lord, to praise him with me. That’s an intercession, I do not see how it’s differnent then the psalms.

 

[SherryLynn9]

mayra hart:

st paul prays for his departed friend onesiphorus, which makes sense only if he can be helped by prayer. 2tim 1:16-18:“may the lord grant mercy to the household of onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me;he was not ashamed of my chains…may the lord grant him to find mercy from the lord on that day.” in short, if the jews,st.paul, and the early christians prayed for the dead, then we should have no fear of praying for them as well. i sometimes pray to my granma, an she is already gone. .

Hi,
Now I have nothing to back this thought up, but I have always felt or believed that because God is Omnipresent, and not bound by time restraints, that any prayer I prayed that could help before or after something happened, would help a person or situation, because God knew I was going to pray it and a prayer I prayed in ‘’ my time period" would be taken into account.

 

[Psalm45_9]

"Jerome

“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406])." (Keating, 2004)

Listen to the man who translated the Bible so all people could read it

Work cited

Keating, Karl Catholic Answers, The Intercession of Saints
2020 Gillespie Way, El Cajon, CA 92020 USA
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

The whole Church did never accept that Song as Scripture.

"Hippolytus

“What is narrated here [in the story of Susannah] happened at a later time, although it is placed at the front of the book [of Daniel], for it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings. . . . [W]e ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest anyone be overtaken in any transgression and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the judge of all and the Word himself is the eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah” (Commentary on Daniel [A.D. 204]; the story of Susannah [Dan. 13] is not in the Protestant Bible)." (Keating, 2004)

Susannah is one of the “additions” of Daniel, more techinically a subtraction. Just like the Song of the Three Youths, St. Jerome believed it was scripture, and so did Hippolytus, 200 years before St. Jerome.

Work Cited
Keating, Karl Catholic Answers, The Old Testament Canon
2020 Gillespie Way, El Cajon, CA 92020 USA

catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

The whole Church did never accept that Song as Scripture. Pax Vobiscvm

You are going off on a preconceived misconception that you were taught. You have yet to provide sources saying that the “whole” church did not accept it as scripture. St. Jerome did, and many others, they are part of the “Whole” Church. The Councils of Hippo and Carthrage stated that the Deuterocanonicals are scripture. So there had to have been enough people in the church believing that this is scripture for it to be in the Bible. Since then, no one raised an eyebrow over these books until the Reformation.

(Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1146**)“There is no evidence that the Rabbis at the council of Javneh (90A.D.), had the legitimate authority to determine scripture for the Jewish religion”**

(Encyclopaedia of Religion, Vol. 2, page 173**)“The authority of council ( Javneh 90A.D.) was rejected by the early Christians and the Jews of Ethiopia and Alexandria.”**
(Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).“The group of Jews which met at Javneh became the dominant group for later Jewish history, and today most Jews accept the canon of Javneh. However, some Jews, such as those from Ethiopia, follow a different canon which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament and includes the seven Deutero Canonical books”

Even the Jews are in disagreement over the Canon, so how do you know what is The Word of God?

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

You don’t need to address a PRAYER to a living saint. You just talk to him personally, or you send him a mail, or whatever… I didn’t see anyone living in Asia ( unless a pagan or a believer in New Age ) praying to his mother who is living in America.

Pax Vobiscvm!
That’s not compleatly correct, once again, here are all the definitions of the word “Pray”

I will underline the definition used when some prays to God and I will bold the definitions that Catholics use when we say we pray to the Saints.

“*Pray: *1. To utter or address a prayer to a deity. 2. To make a fervent request for something. 3. To beseech; implore. <Latin: precari, to entreat]” (American, 1983)

English is a complex language, and it changes as the years go by and many words have multiple definitions. Back in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, the word “pray” was used regularly in every day language.

“Wherefore, I pray thee?” Is an example of this, it uses the 3rd definition that I have written. The modern translation of this would be, “Why, I ask you?”

Here are some examples from this in The King James Bible:

“And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: Let a little water, I prayyou, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree.” (Genesis 18:3-4)

“And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.” (Genesis 19:2)

“And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.” (Genesis 19:7-4)

 

[Psalm45_9]

(continued)

“And Hamor communed with them, saying, The soul of my son Shechem longeth for your daughter: I pray you give her him to wife.” (Genesis 34:8)
“And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed.” (Genesis 37:6)

“And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.” (Genesis 40:8)

“And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.” (Genesis 45:4)

“And when the days of his mourning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, If now I have found grace in your eyes, speak, I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh, saying, My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my grave which I have digged for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father, and I will come again.” (Genesis 50:4-5)

“And Moses said unto Korah, Hear, I pray you, ye sons of Levi.” (Numbers 16:8)

“And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.” (Numbers 16:26)

“For I will promote thee unto very great honour, and I will do whatsoever thou sayest unto me: come therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people. And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more. Now therefore, I pray you, tarry ye also here this night, that I may know what the LORD will say unto me more.” (Numbers 22:17-19)

“Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father’s house, and give me a true token.” (Joshua 2:12)

“Now therefore come, let me, I pray thee, give thee counsel, that thou mayest save thine own life, and the life of thy son Solomon.” (1 Kings 2:12)

 

[Psalm45_9]

(continued)

YAQUBOS:

He just takes the right way by sending her a mail or calling her.

Exactly, that’s praying:

“And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.And Bath-sheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.” (1 Kings 2:17-18)

This is a perfect example of what Catolics mean when they pray to for a Saint’s intercession.

Work Cited

American Heritage Dictionary
Dell Publishing Co., Inc 1 Dag Hammarskjold Plaza, New York, NY 10017

 

[itsjustdave1988]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Talking to dead people, saint or not saint, is a sin.

In Love,

Yaqubos†

You are a heretic, and heresey is a sin. Peace be with you.

 

[edwinG]

Pisio:

Yaqubos†
Exactly!
The angel presented the prayers to God on behalf of the pray-ers. It acted as an intercessor. The prayers of the saints were taken to God by and intercessor… Not that hard to grasp really…
In Christ, with Mary,
Pisio

Hi Pisio,
I read this as saying the angel came to the altar with an empty censor. He was given incense which contained the prayers of the saints. People dont pray to angels. Angels are messengers of God. We all have work to do. I havn’t counted the number of times in the bible where it says," pray to God, but it must be many many times. I cant understand why you want to dispute this. The only reason I can think of is Mary. Is this the reason you try so hard to defend this most difficult position?
It really is very difficult for me to see why you cling to something so fragile, praying to saints. Many of the members here interchange the words “to” and “for” probably because their belief is tested by this point of view.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

"Hippolytus

“What is narrated here [in the story of Susannah] happened at a later time, although it is placed at the front of the book [of Daniel], for it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings. . . . [W]e ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest anyone be overtaken in any transgression and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the judge of all and the Word himself is the eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah” (Commentary on Daniel [A.D. 204]; the story of Susannah [Dan. 13] is not in the Protestant Bible)." (Keating, 2004)

Susannah is one of the “additions” of Daniel, more techinically a subtraction. Just like the Song of the Three Youths, St. Jerome believed it was scripture, and so did Hippolytus, 200 years before St. Jerome.

Work Cited
Keating, Karl Catholic Answers, The Old Testament Canon
2020 Gillespie Way, El Cajon, CA 92020 USA

catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp

Hi,
When were these two books written? I refer to the ones which are not in the KJV.
Rev 22:18/19 talks about adding to or subtracting from the Holy Scripture.
As I have not read a catholic bible I have no knowledge of the contents of these books. My bible tells me Rev was written somewhere between 70 and 95AD
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Psalm45_9]

The Adding and Subtracting in the Book of Revelation only refers to the Book of Revelation. Nothing has been added or removed to that book. Around 200 BC there was a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures called the Septugint. It was used by the Greek-speaking Jews of the Roman empre. After Catholicism began with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, some Jews gathered around 90 AD a Jamnia (spelling’s) wrong. And tried make a formal canon. They threw out 1 and 2 Maccabees (which tells the story of Hanuka) Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Baruch (Part of Jeremiah) and parts of Daniel and Esther. And the only copies of these books were in Greek, not Hebrew. However, copies of them in Aramaic have been found with the Dead Sea Scrolls. I am talking about the parts of Daniel. They had no authority to do so, and the Etiopian Jews today still use the Septugint with these books in it, over the present “Hebrew” canon.

 

[edwinG]

Psalm45:9:

The Adding and Subtracting in the Book of Revelation only refers to the Book of Revelation. Nothing has been added or removed to that book. Around 200 BC there was a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures called the Septugint. It was used by the Greek-speaking Jews of the Roman empre. After Catholicism began with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, some Jews gathered around 90 AD a Jamnia (spelling’s) wrong. And tried make a formal canon. They threw out 1 and 2 Maccabees (which tells the story of Hanuka) Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Baruch (Part of Jeremiah) and parts of Daniel and Esther. And the only copies of these books were in Greek, not Hebrew. However, copies of them in Aramaic have been found with the Dead Sea Scrolls. I am talking about the parts of Daniel. They had no authority to do so, and the Etiopian Jews today still use the Septugint with these books in it, over the present “Hebrew” canon.

HI Psalm45:9
Thank you for this informationhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

edwinG:

…I would have to agree with you that if Moses and Elijah came down to you on earth, that you should talk to them. Dont you see that Jesus only ever followed the Holy Spirit and this event is obviously led by the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think we are in disagreement here.

edwinG:

Did Jesus either before or after this event pray to Moses or Elijah. We dont have evidence of this, in fact their being on earth is more evidence against your position than for it, as Jesus could not pray To them they had to come down to earth.

Actually, I wasn’t making the “intercession of saints” case by using the Moses & Elijah example. My post dealt with why using the Moses & Elijah example was a bad idea. It’s my understanding that the Catholic position is that the intercession of saints becomes possible because the “spirits were released from prison” upon Christ’s freeing them. All baptized Christians are members of the communion of saints. Those that have died and gone to heaven are saints. We are saints on earth. We can all pray to God for his will be done. The question posed in this thread is whether those in purgatory (saved, but not yet perfectly purified) can do the same.
edmwinG:

Imagine if Jesus had prayed to someone other than His Father. Wow there would be world wide acceptance of this practise…

Imagine if Christ would have written His will down himself instead of relying on His followers to do so…I wonder if the debates would have ceased anyway.