Praying to the dead - not Saints

[Stylteralmaldo]

edwinG:

…What you say is true, many make this claim. I do not want to change anyone’s belief. I dont want to tear you away from the catholic church. You believe in Christ. What I do want though is to have you accept a real and active presence of the Holy Spirit in your life. I want this because it will bring you joy.It will bring you closer to Christ. It is in agreement with your scripture and your understanding of the scripture. There is no conflict between your scripture and the Holy Spirit. I want to bring Him alive to you in you life, not to let Him lie as some spoken words. Active active active…

Ditto…it really isn’t up to any of us to change anyone’s beliefs if you think about it…the Holy Spirit leads us all closer to God’s will…not us. I agree with you whole-heartedly regarding the joy of the Holy Spirit. I can tell from your post that you have felt it too. Until next time, it’s been a pleasure conversing with you.

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

Dave:

We pray to Saints because the Church confirms to us that they are in heavan. Is it ok to pray to people close in our lives who have passed away (even though we can’t confirm that they are in heaven)? If they’re still in Purgatory, can they still intercede on our behalf?

The souls in Purgatory can pray for you but not themselves, thats up to us, and if our prayers are answered then we gain new intercessors in Heaven.

“It is a good and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins.”

 

[Psalm45_9]

It’s nice to see that we’re back on topic again, for now, at least.

 

[Psalm45_9]

edwinG:

Hi,
When were these two books written? I refer to the ones which are not in the KJV.

Actually, these books were in the original 1611 King James Bible, between the old and new testaments. The King could never get rid of them, he even had these books read in Church on certain feast days. The version of these books that I have been quoting is the King James Version.

 

[Psalm45_9]

edwinG:

Hi Pisio,
I read this as saying the angel came to the altar with an empty censor. He was given incense which contained the prayers of the saints. People dont pray to angels. Angels are messengers of God. We all have work to do. I havn’t counted the number of times in the bible where it says," pray to God, but it must be many many times. I cant understand why you want to dispute this. The only reason I can think of is Mary. Is this the reason you try so hard to defend this most difficult position?
It really is very difficult for me to see why you cling to something so fragile, praying to saints. Many of the members here interchange the words “to” and “for” probably because their belief is tested by this point of view.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Did you read my posts about the word “Pray” back at post 54 or so? Once again, if you ask someone to do something for you, it’s prayer, in the archaic definition of the word. If an Angel can relate a message to you from God, they can relate one from you to God, they’re “messengers” after all, that’s their job.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm

YAQUBOS:

How do you talk to an angel? Is an angel everywhere like God?

I see you deny the Holy Spirit.

Why ask your friends to pray for you?

“For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.” (Psalm 139:4)

God already knows our intentions. If you say we can’t ask the Saints in Heaven to pray for us, then you can not ask the Saints on Earth to pray for you either.

“Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves; For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him? And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee. I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.” (Luke 11:5-8)

If you continually knock on the door you will get a result, if you have more people knocking on the door with you, you have faster results.

YAQUBOS:

The angels and all creatures must praise the Lord. So where do you find in those verses living people talking to dead people to pray for them?

You changed the subject; I said we could pray to the angels. You gave me a circular answer. Angels are not dead, we can call upon them:

“Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.” (Psalm 103:22-23)

”Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts." (Psalm 148:2)

“*Pray: *1. To utter or address a prayer to a deity. 2. To make a fervent request for something. 3. To beseech; implore. <Latin: precari, to entreat]” (American, 1983)

Definition 1 which is underlined is the definition that most people think of when they hear the word, “pray”. Definitions 2 and 3, which are bolded, are what Catholics think of when they say, “Saints of God, pray for us.”

Let us analyze what is going on here: The Psalmist is praising and blessing the Lord, he tells the angels to do likewise. He entreated/implored them to praise and bless the Lord with him. That’s definition 3, making it prayer.

(Make sure you look at my post starting at window #52)

 

[Psalm45_9]

(continued)

YAQUBOS:

Really? Tell me, how is praising an intercession?

He asked them to do it, they did it. Scenario: Psalmist: “God, I praise you.” (But this sounds faint, God deserves greater glory.) Psalmist: “Angels, say ‘God, we praise you.” (Suddenly multitude of Angels praise God, with the psalmist. He asked them, they’re doing it. Prayer is more then just asking for something, see definition 1.

YAQUBOS:

Again and again… Those prayers are not addressed to any angel, but to GOD! The angel came and took them FROM THE ALTAR!

So the question remains: how can you talk to dead saints?

I have answered your Deuteronomy 18:10-11 objection in the “Intercession” thread.

YAQUBOS:

Yes, alive for God, and not for us ( how many times did I repeat this till now? )…

As you say: “The saints in heaven”, not on earth.

You say that the saints are dead to us, but not to God. That goes against scripture: “For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.” (Romans 12:4-5)

The Church is one body. Heaven and Earth are the different offices. However, there is only one body in Christ. To say that the Saints are dead to us, is to imply that there are now two bodies in Christ, which flies in the face of scripture. Heaven and Earth were united by Christ, it is one body. Just because somebody’s in a different room doesn’t mean you can’t talk to them.

 

[Psalm45_9]

(continued)

YAQUBOS:

Where do you find intercession of saints in that verse? Do you mean the elders? Well, if yes, then let me ask you: do you have 24 saints in Heaven, or a little more?..

I told you: our prayers are presented to God in Heaven, and this is described SYMBOLICALLY. If you want to accept the 24 as a symbol, then you must understand what it symbolizes.

“And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.” (Revelation 5:8)

(The Angel offers the prayers of the Saints up to God)

“And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them) And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night. Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying, Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness. And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying, The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now. And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word.” (Numbers 14:13-20)

(Moses offers the prayers of the Saints up to God)

How is it that one is symbolic and the other is not?

Work Cited

American Heritage Dictionary
Dell Publishing Co., Inc 1 Dag Hammarskjold Plaza, New York, NY 10017

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

I still like to hear a SCRIPTURAL answer to the following question:

How can you talk to a dead saint?

N.B.: even if you want to say that “pray” means “ask”, then you need to give me an answer to the same question:

HOW CAN YOU PRAY AND ASK A DEAD SAINT???

Where do you read all your human philosophies in Scripture?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[GAssisi]

The reason we can pray/ ask saints in heaven for their prayers is because to us they are not dead. These Saints are ALIVE to God, and St. Paul exhorts us to put on the mind of Christ. Catholics, being the good Bible-believers we are, follow St. Paul’s exhortation. If you don’t want to, then that is your error.

Also your comparison to communicating with people here on earth somewhere in another part of the world actually demonstrates how you have not put on the mind of Christ in this matter. The medium of communication in prayer is not physical, Yaqubos. I am surprised you do not realize that. Rather, it is the HOLY SPIRIT. The reason we can communicate with God and any saint in heaven is because we are ONE IN SPIRIT. We are one Church, living on earth or living in heaven. It is the SPIRIT that communicates our prayers and requests and supplications throughout the heavenly realm. THAT is the reason we do not and CAN not communicate with those in hell – that is, those who are DEAD – because we are not connected by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who deigns to communicate with the physically and spiritually dead are obviously doing it by means other than the Holy Spirit. Thus, it is wrong and even demonic. But we Christians on earth DO have a connection with the Christians in heaven – it is the Holy Spirit, a connection that not even death can sever. Do you really believe that physical death can separate us from our brethren in heaven? If you do, once again, I must say you have not put on the mind of Christ in the matter.

Finally, I would like to ask what YOUR interpretation of the elders who offer up our prayers is. You say it is symbolic. I’ll agree. It appears to be a symbol of the fact that those in heaven, not just angels, can intercede (i.e., bring our prayers) to God for us.

God bless,

Greg

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

I still like to hear a SCRIPTURAL answer to the following question:

How can you talk to a dead saint?

N.B.: even if you want to say that “pray” means “ask”, then you need to give me an answer to the same question:

HOW CAN YOU PRAY AND ASK A DEAD SAINT???

Where do you read all your human philosophies in Scripture?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Pax Vobiscvm:

All who believe are not dead, they are alive. The Chruch is one body, we are never seperated from the Saints. I’m sorry that you doubt God’s Word. But then again, you still have to answer me about how you know the Bible is The Word of God.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

GAssisi:

The reason we can pray/ ask saints in heaven for their prayers is because to us they are not dead. These Saints are ALIVE to God, and St. Paul exhorts us to put on the mind of Christ. Catholics, being the good Bible-believers we are, follow St. Paul’s exhortation. If you don’t want to, then that is your error.

Also your comparison to communicating with people here on earth somewhere in another part of the world actually demonstrates how you have not put on the mind of Christ in this matter. The medium of communication in prayer is not physical, Yaqubos. I am surprised you do not realize that. Rather, it is the HOLY SPIRIT. The reason we can communicate with God and any saint in heaven is because we are ONE IN SPIRIT. We are one Church, living on earth or living in heaven. It is the SPIRIT that communicates our prayers and requests and supplications throughout the heavenly realm. THAT is the reason we do not and CAN not communicate with those in hell – that is, those who are DEAD – because we are not connected by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who deigns to communicate with the physically and spiritually dead are obviously doing it by means other than the Holy Spirit. Thus, it is wrong and even demonic. But we Christians on earth DO have a connection with the Christians in heaven – it is the Holy Spirit, a connection that not even death can sever. Do you really believe that physical death can separate us from our brethren in heaven? If you do, once again, I must say you have not put on the mind of Christ in the matter.

This is human philosophy. There is nothing like this in Scripture. Philosophies like this can lead you to heresies.

I didn’t say that the communication between the Christians is physical. But I said that you can’t have fellowship with them without being able to communicate with them. How can you talk to dead? By the Spirit? So are you saying that the Spirit has become now simply a messenger who takes your prayers and gives them to the saints and then tells them to pray them???

But even if that is true, so why you are not able to hear my prayers to you? If I ask you something now in prayer, can you hear it? I will not try it, for that would be a sin. If you believe it, try it with one of your friends. You will see that he will not even know that you prayed! ALTHOUGH HE HAS THE SPIRIT, and you say YOU CAN COMMUNICATE WITH HIM THROUGH THE SPIRIT.

Forget about human vain philosophy. The Scripture says:

“See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” ( Colossians 2:8 )

To be continued, if the Lord permits.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

Continuing by His Grace…

GAssisi:

Finally, I would like to ask what YOUR interpretation of the elders who offer up our prayers is. You say it is symbolic. I’ll agree. It appears to be a symbol of the fact that those in heaven, not just angels, can intercede (i.e., bring our prayers) to God for us.

God bless,

Greg

Not my interpretation, but what the Scripture teaches.

Those Elders are 24. The children of Israel: 12. The Apostles:12. They represent the whole Church from the beginning till now. They are to be taken as whole and not as individuals, for they do not represent a number ( 24 ). You also ( if you are born again ) you are among them not as individual, but as one body ( the Church ). You are even now among them in Christ by faith and in hope, as the Scripture says:

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus” ( Ephesians 2:4-6 )

The prayers presented by them ( by us, by the whole Church )represent all prayers presented by the Church TO GOD all along history.

In Love,

Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm:

All who believe are not dead, they are alive. The Chruch is one body, we are never seperated from the Saints. I’m sorry that you doubt God’s Word. But then again, you still have to answer me about how you know the Bible is The Word of God.

You don’t believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

All Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God.

So you are not a Christian. I need to talk to you as a pagan. ( dear pagan friend, if you want to talk about the Bible being the Word of God, we can do it in another thread ).

As you are a pagan, so it is not strange if you communicate with the dead.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

QUOTE=YAQUBOS]Peace be with you!

This is human philosophy. There is nothing like this in Scripture. Philosophies like this can lead you to heresies.

I didn’t say that the communication between the Christians is physical. But I said that you can’t have fellowship with them without being able to communicate with them. How can you talk to dead? By the Spirit? So are you saying that the Spirit has become now simply a messenger who takes your prayers and gives them to the saints and then tells them to pray them???

But even if that is true, so why you are not able to hear my prayers to you? If I ask you something now in prayer, can you hear it? I will not try it, for that would be a sin. If you believe it, try it with one of your friends. You will see that he will not even know that you prayed! ALTHOUGH HE HAS THE SPIRIT, and you say YOU CAN COMMUNICATE WITH HIM THROUGH THE SPIRIT.

Forget about human vain philosophy. The Scripture says:

“See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” ( Colossians 2:8 )

To be continued, if the Lord permits.

In Love,

Yaqubos†

Pax Vobiscvm!

You still have yet to tell me how you know that is the Word of God. Anyways, it is tragic you deny the Holy Spirit, I see your faith is very weak, I’m sorry. When a Saint enters Heaven, he receives the fullness of the Holy Spirit, we are still immature here on Earth. With confirmation, we are sealed with its gifts, but it continues to grow in us until we reach Heaven, where it is mature.

 

[Psalm45_9]

(continued)

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.f a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.” (John 15:1-8)

Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot abide in Christ and bear fruit. He is the Vine, we are the branches, all the branches are connected to the same vine. When a Saint enters Heaven, is he cut from the vine? No only those who do not bear fruit are cut and cast into the fire. If they are still connected to the vine, then they are still connected to me, through the Holy Spirit, which is God. I may be a different branch, but it does not mean that I am not connected to the other living branches. To say that the Saints are dead to us is to say that they have been cut from the life giving vine, which goes against scripture, a heresy. It is not Human Philosophy, it is the work of the Holy Spirit, which guides us to all truth.

 

[GAssisi]

Your interpretation is nice. But it is only an interpretation. I wonder if the angels St. John saw were actual angels in your paradigm, or were mere symbols for something else. In any case, your interpretation, by your admission probably, is fallible. Thus, I cannot accept it as true.

With regards to praying with the Spirit, I have actually several times in my life been led by the Spirit to pray for someone, and later on it was confirmed that that person needed prayer. Funny how you think that our connection in the Spirit is akin to telepathy or something. It really demonstrates how far from the mind of Christ you are on this subject.

The Holy Spirit a mere messenger? If that is the only way you can conceive of the Holy Spirit, more’s the pity.

God bless,

Greg

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

You don’t believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

All Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God.

So you are not a Christian. I need to talk to you as a pagan. ( dear pagan friend, if you want to talk about the Bible being the Word of God, we can do it in another thread ).

As you are a pagan, so it is not strange if you communicate with the dead.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Pax Vobiscvm!

Did I say anywhere that the Bible is not the Word of God? No, I just want to know how you know what is scripture and what is not.

 

[YAQUBOS]

“Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.”

Psalm 73:25

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm!

YAQUBOS:

Those Elders are 24. The children of

Israel: 12. The Apostles:12. They represent the whole Church from the beginning till now. They are to be taken as whole and not as individuals, for they do not represent a number ( 24 ). You also ( if you are born again ) you are among them not as individual, but as one body ( the Church ).

Thank you for that wonderful analysis. Indeed, it is the whole church (the communion of Saints). I see that they are offering up our prayers. I do not see how it is symbolic. The Communion of Saints (The Church in Heaven) are offering up our prayers, I can’t see it as only a symbol, but a reality.

"Clement of Alexandria

“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (*Miscellanies *7:12 [A.D. 208])." (Keating, 2004)

History seems to show that too.

Work Cited

Keating, Karl; Catholic Answers, The Intercession of the Saints
2020 Gillespie Way, El Cajon, CA 92020 USA
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp