Praying to the dead - not Saints

[itsjustdave1988]

There’s nothing in early church history which condemns the practice of invoking the saint’s for their intercession. This is an example where the study of liturgy helps to illuminate the entire deposit of faith handed on to us from the apostles. The early church was quick to rebuke anything remotely unorthodox. For example, even the date of Easter was hotly debated by the early church. I would think that if the practice of praying to the saints glorified were not accepted as part of the deposit of faith, there would be several ancient letters or sermons or other written evidence of antiquity showing how this novel practice was debated and only later decided upon as orthodox. No evidence of any refutation exists until the past few hundred years. This makes me suspect that the prohibition against prayers to the saints is the novel doctrine, and not the other way around.

In other words, the contents of Sacred Scripture was more in dispute in the history of Christianity than whether or not it is orthodox to ask the angels and saints in heaven to pray for us. Today, all Catholic and Orthodox assert the orthodoxy of intercessory prayer of the saints, as well as many Protestants. This is really a Protestant-versus-Protestant dispute which has no compelling influence on the majority of Christianity.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

YAQUBOS:

*Peace be with you!

So we just read human philosophy, and still no answer to the question: how can you talk to DEAD people?

Those dead people are not everywhere like God.

In Love,
Yaqubos†*

Spiritually they are alive with Christ. God allows them to hear prayer requests addressed to them.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[MikeB]

I have thought about this over the weekend and it struck me on Sunday that prior to Jesus’ death on the cross there were no "saints’ in Heaven only the Angels so for the Bible not to mention praying to saints is a given. This is why our non-Catholic brothers have lost so much. In an attempt to distance themselves from the Catholic Church they sing this mantra of no “tradition”. The early Church Fathers spoke and wrote on Saints and how they could intecede for us. All of this within years of the Apostles preaching and dying. Do we honestly believe that early Church Fathers were willing to die for this new religion and then create false teaching at the same time? Tradition is what all humans do. Look at the world around us. Our holidays, our form of government or relations with our families and with each other. Traditions of the Church is what makes it so strong. Traditions is what made it survive when evil tried to tear it apart. All we had to do was look back on hundreds of years of teachings. As Jesus said in Matthew 16:18, “The gates of hell will not prevail against (My Church)”.

 

[GaryB]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Still no answer to the question: how can you talk to dead saints?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Yaqubos,
1st. There are no “dead” saints.
2nd. You still have not answered the question, “How do
you know the Bible is the inspired Word of God?”

GaryB

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
MikeB.:

I have thought about this over the weekend and it struck me on Sunday that prior to Jesus’ death on the cross there were no "saints’ in Heaven only the Angels so for the Bible not to mention praying to saints is a given. This is why our non-Catholic brothers have lost so much. In an attempt to distance themselves from the Catholic Church they sing this mantra of no “tradition”. The early Church Fathers spoke and wrote on Saints and how they could intecede for us. All of this within years of the Apostles preaching and dying. Do we honestly believe that early Church Fathers were willing to die for this new religion and then create false teaching at the same time? Tradition is what all humans do. Look at the world around us. Our holidays, our form of government or relations with our families and with each other. Traditions of the Church is what makes it so strong. Traditions is what made it survive when evil tried to tear it apart. All we had to do was look back on hundreds of years of teachings. As Jesus said in Matthew 16:18, “The gates of hell will not prevail against (My Church)”.

1. What happened to Elijah? Is he one of the OT saints? Why didn’t the NT authors write anything about praying to him?
2. Are the OT people still dead even after the resurrection of our Lord? Or did they also, like us, have Life through Jesus Christ?
3. Stephen was a saint. He died very soon. Paul, who was a witness of his death, why didn’t he say anything about praying to him ( to Stephen )?
4. Are the Church Fathers infallible? Are their writings Scripture ( inspired by God )?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

1. What happened to Elijah? Is he one of the OT saints? Why didn’t the NT authors write anything about praying to him?

Why didn’t the NT authors write about the exchange of wedding rings at marriages?

2. Are the OT people still dead even after the resurrection of our Lord? Or did they also, like us, have Life through Jesus Christ?

No, Christ preached to them in Limbo of the Fathers, they’re in Heaven too.

3. Stephen was a saint. He died very soon. Paul, who was a witness of his death, why didn’t he say anything about praying to him ( to Stephen )?

Why didn’t St. Paul write about the Holy Trinity?

4. Are the Church Fathers infallible? Are their writings Scripture ( inspired by God )?

But how do you know what is scripture or not? Did the Bible fall from the sky?

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Why didn’t the NT authors write about the exchange of wedding rings at marriages?

If you don’t put a ring, you are not sinning against God. By the way: who said that the Bible doesn’t say anything about this?
Psalm45:9:

No, Christ preached to them in Limbo of the Fathers, they’re in Heaven too.

So why didn’t the NT authors write anything about praying to them?
Psalm45:9:

Why didn’t St. Paul write about the Holy Trinity?

He wrote about the Holy Trinity. Yet, as the word “Trinity” is not 100% what God is, so the Spirit preferred to tell you that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Do you believe what the Scripture says about the Father, and about the Son, and about the Spirit?
The word “Trinity” is the creation of the human philosophy. It is good to use it to explain a little what we believe. But if someone doesn’t want to use the word “Trinity”, and yet believes that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, he is not sinning.
Psalm45:9:

But how do you know what is scripture or not? Did the Bible fall from the sky?

Is God only in the sky? Can’t the Bible “fall” from somewhere else?

By the way: be honest and open a topic about this, instead of asking this question in every topic and with every step.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

If you don’t put a ring, you are not sinning against God. By the way: who said that the Bible doesn’t say anything about this?

Then you can provide scripture passages about this “human tradition”?

]
So why didn’t the NT authors write anything about praying to them?

They didn’t write about the doctrine of the Trinity either. Why didn’t they?

YAQUBOS:

He wrote about the Holy Trinity. Yet, as the word “Trinity” is not 100% what God is, so the Spirit preferred to tell you that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Do you believe what the Scripture says about the Father, and about the Son, and about the Spirit?
The word “Trinity” is the creation of the human philosophy. It is good to use it to explain a little what we believe. But if someone doesn’t want to use the word “Trinity”, and yet believes that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, he is not sinning.

Where in the bible does it say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three persons of the one God? So now you’re giving into “Human Philosophy”?

YAQUBOS:

Is God only in the sky? Can’t the Bible “fall” from somewhere else?

By the way: be honest and open a topic about this, instead of asking this question in every topic and with every step.

How do you know what is scripture and what is not?

 

[MikeB]

If the early Church Fathers, like St. Augustine and St. Jerome, when they compliled the Bible toward the end of the 4th century, were trying to create some false belief in asking the saints to pray on our behalf why didn’t they fake some “letters” and include them in with the New Testament. Could it simply be that it was accepted and no one questioned the practice. As to Stephen, I’ve noticed that St. Paul generally wrote his letters to the churches when he noticed something was wrong. Maybe he accepted it also and since it was accepted by the early church he saw no reason to write on it. I found an article on the internet and have included it. I paraphrased the article but include the website to get the full text.

Christians constantly ask one another to pray (intercede) with God on our behalf. Asking saints to pray for us simply expands the scope to include our brothers and sisters who are in heaven. We’re all part of the same Body of Christ, after all, and that Body is not divided by death. In fact, the saints in heaven are more alive than we are, and much more righteous. From the beginning of the Church, it was understood that God intended the whole Body of Christ, both in heaven and on earth, to intercede before Him. All Christians everywhere are to pray for one another. Today, all Christians everywhere ask their living brothers and sisters to pray for them, but did you know that Protestants are the only Christians who don’t ask their brothers and sisters in heaven to pray for them too?
**
In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]. (Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

http://catholicoutlook.com/earlycath.php#saints

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

YAQUBOS:

So why didn’t the NT authors write anything about praying to them?

Hi YAQUBOS!

They did. When the rich man is talking to Abraham he’s “praying to” him in this sense of the word. In order for the saints in heaven to take the prayers of those on earth to God (Rev 5:8), they must first be aware of them. They are made aware of them when someone “prays to” them.

Keep in mind that in English the word “pray” can simply mean “a humble request” which is distinctly different from the prayer offered to God alone.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Black_Jaque]

Yaqubos,

My American Heritage Dictionary has 6 different definitions of “Pray”.

Number one is “To utter or address a prayer to a deity or other object of worship”. My guess is, this is the definition you are working from. Which, if this were the only valid usage of the word “pray” you would be entirely correct - we cannot pray to anyone but God.

HOWEVER

Moving along to definition number 2 of the transitive verb it says, “To ask (someone) imploringly, beseech. Often used to introduce and entreaty or question: Pray, be careful.”

THIS is the definition Catholics are using when we “pray to the Saints”. Perhaps a better way of stating it would be that we “pray the saints”.

So, when you ask a living friend to pray for you, or with you, you are “praying your friend”. You are beseeching that they pray on your behalf.

When we pray the Hail Mary we first greet her and butter her up a bit. “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” Then, here’s where we pray her, “Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.”

So which defintion of “pray” are we using when we “pray” the Hail Mary? The first definion? Or the second?

So when we pray FOR the dead, we are asking God directly for favors for our deceased loved ones.

However, when we pray TO the dead, we are beseeching the dead to ask God for something on our behalf.

Nowhere do we pray to the dead as if they were an object of worship.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Where in the bible does it say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three persons of the one God? So now you’re giving into “Human Philosophy”?

You see how much you don’t think biblically? Who said that the Bible says they are three PERSONS? As I told you “Trinity” and “Persons” are not 100% what the fact is. So the Spirit didn’t use them. But these words are useful to explain what we believe.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
MikeB.:

If the early Church Fathers, like St. Augustine and St. Jerome, when they compliled the Bible toward the end of the 4th century, were trying to create some false belief in asking the saints to pray on our behalf why didn’t they fake some “letters” and include them in with the New Testament.

You see how much you underestimate Scripture? Who made you believe that any human has authority or can add anything to the Bible??? God is the Lord of His Word, and no one can change it. People can change it for themselves, believing false teachings. But no one can touch to the Word. Don’t try it! But even if you try, you will fail! Many tried before you.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi YAQUBOS!

They did. When the rich man is talking to Abraham he’s “praying to” him in this sense of the word.

The rich man was dead. We are talking about living saints talking to dead saints.

Catholic4aReasn:

In order for the saints in heaven to take the prayers of those on earth to God (Rev 5:8), they must first be aware of them. They are made aware of them when someone “prays to” them.

Read 1 Samuel 15 to see how much this human philosophy is vain and dangerous.

Catholic4aReasn:

Keep in mind that in English the word “pray” can simply mean “a humble request” which is distinctly different from the prayer offered to God alone.

Keep in mind that we are not talking about praying someone, but about praying TO someone.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

You see how much you don’t think biblically? Who said that the Bible says they are three PERSONS? As I told you “Trinity” and “Persons” are not 100% what the fact is. So the Spirit didn’t use them. But these words are useful to explain what we believe.

OK, can you please tell me what the Holy Trinity is?

YAQUBOS:

You see how much you underestimate Scripture? Who made you believe that any human has authority or can add anything to the Bible??? God is the Lord of His Word, and no one can change it. People can change it for themselves, believing false teachings. But no one can touch to the Word. Don’t try it! But even if you try, you will fail! Many tried before you.

Let me get this straight, the Bible just appeared one day, just like how it is today and no one, including Martin Luther, questioned it?

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pox Vobiscvm!

YAQUBOS:

The rich man was dead. We are talking about living saints talking to dead saints. Read 1 Samuel 15 to see how much this human philosophy is vain and dangerous.

You’re getting it!!! Saul did go against Deuteronomy 18:10-11, he asked for information, through a necromancer, we do not. “Arise, Tabitha” say what you will, but it is clear that St. Peter called upon a dead person. Yes it was the Holy Spirit that had her raised, but at his command.

]
Keep in mind that we are not talking about praying someone, but about praying TO someone.

“Now therefore come, let me, I pray thee, give thee counsel, that thou mayest save thine own life, and the life of thy son Solomon.” (1 Kings 1:12)

Exactly!

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi YAQUBOS!

YAQUBOS:

The rich man was dead. We are talking about living saints talking to dead saints.

Good point. Do you believe that scripture forbids those of us on earth asking those in heave to pray for us?

Originally Posted by Catholic4aReasn
In order for the saints in heaven to take the prayers of those on earth to God (Rev 5:8), they must first be aware of them. They are made aware of them when someone “prays to” them.

Read 1 Samuel 15 to see how much this human philosophy is vain and dangerous.

How does 1 Sam 15 show that what I posted is vain and dangerous? It’s intercessory prayer. Intercessory prayer is good and powerful (James 5:16), not vain and dangerous.

Keep in mind that we are not talking about praying someone, but about praying TO someone.

Nope. We’re talking about asking someone to pray FOR you. That’s what “pray to” means in the context of our brothers and sisters in heaven. To “pray to” someone alive with Christ in heaven is fundamentally and essentially different from “praying to” God. Same words, different meaning. I have no problem with your disagreeing with asking those in heaven for prayer. The trouble comes when you mistakenly confuse it with prayer to God, which is an entirely different thing. In that case, you’re disagreeing with something the Church doesn’t even teach.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

OK, can you please tell me what the Holy Trinity is?

Let me get this straight, the Bible just appeared one day, just like how it is today and no one, including Martin Luther, questioned it?

Open a topic about this, and we can discuss it as much as we can by His Grace and if He permits.

By the way: a part of this was explained in my last reply in the topic that is now closed ( about Salvation and Faith ).

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm!

YAQUBOS:

Read 1 Samuel 15 to see how much this human philosophy is vain and dangerous.

Try as you like, “Tabitha, arise” is what the Bible says. Tabitha is dead, according to your interpretation of Deuteronomy 18:10-11, he is forbidden to call upon her at all, even if he did pray to God. According to the proper context of the word, “necromancer” what he did was fine, since he did not ask for information. It is only vain in your eyes, not God’s. If not, then how can you explain all these miracles attributed to the intercession of Saints? If you’re going to say the Devil, then ,“How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.” (Mark 3:23-24)

“And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?** And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest**. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:13-14)

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Pox Vobiscvm!

You’re getting it!!! Saul did go against Deuteronomy 18:10-11, he asked for information, through a necromancer, we do not.

My friend, it seems that you are reading what you SUPPOSE is 1 Samuel 15. Just take the time to open 1 Samuel 15, and read it, and you will see that it is not about Saul asking for information…

“Now therefore come, let me, I pray thee, give thee counsel, that thou mayest save thine own life, and the life of thy son Solomon.” (1 Kings 1:12)

Exactly!

Yes, pray THEE, and not TO THEE.

So if you accept that you cannot pray TO dead people, now we need to know how you can pray/ask a dead. How does the Bible say you can talk to a dead?

In Love,
Yaqubos†