praying to virgin mary and the saints

[guanophore]

Catholics pray the rosary and recite prayers to Virgin Mary. Also, Catholics pray to the saints. Another thing, catholics also use statues of the saints, Virgin Mary, and of Jesus. But dosent’ this contradict what the bible says? Instead of praying to Mary and the saints for help, why not just pray to God? And why have false idols?

The Apostles taught that we should pray for one another, and ask for help with our prayers, so we do that. There were no cameras or computers in those days, so we did not have photos. We used figures and icons/paintings and tiles instead.

You have a wrong conclusion about asking others for their prayers. We do not do this “instead” of praying to God. Our family members pray with us.

I cannot think of a good reason to have a “false idol”, can you? Even people that use idols do not think they are “false” so it seems like a strange question to me. Do you have a photograph of your mother that is a “false idol”?

I have a question along these lines…How does a saint become a saint? Do they have to do something extraordinary or are they just regular people?

This a multilayered answer, and I see you have already gotten some good replies.

All who have been baptized can be properly called "saints’ in the sense that we are set apart for the Gospel and for sanctification. Those who are in a state of grace on earth may be called saints. We don’t know who is in heaven, except those whom God has revealed to us. Those that have been revealed we recognize as glorified.

So, anyone who has already died and falls under the specifications that Rolltide mentioned can be a saint?

We are all called to be saints. In this life, we are set aside, made holy in baptism, and called to be made worthy of the promises(sanctified). In the next life,if we die in a state of race, we will be glorified. The specifications apply to those whom God has revealed to the Church as glorified.

God used Mary here on earth for a purpose. Everyone on earth as a purpose, but to you it means that we should pray to those who are now in heaven. When an individual is called a saint in heaven, how do you know that person is really a saint? How do you know Mother Teresa is really a saint? Because the pope declared her as one?

In this context “pray to” means to ask their intercession. We do that with those members of the body who have passed on, as well as those still here. The saints in heaven are part of the “great cloud of witnesses” written about in Heb. 11.

Nothing unclean can enter heaven, so all that are in heaven have been glorified- made pure from anything unclean. They are holy, which is what “saint” means.

We know those who are glorified by what has been revealed to the Church. Yes, if the pope declares this, then it means God has revealed this to the Church. I think this will happen with Mother Teresa, but has not yet.

I don’t recall anywhere in the bible where a person prayed the Rosary. Also, the infallibility of the pope is also in question. Everyone want to see and touch the pope. As far as I know, the pope is just a man, he is not jesus.

Jesus’ prayer book consisted of the 150 psalms. The early church prayed all of these daily. This was a very difficult discipline for many, and too difficult for some to master memorizing them. The Rosary developed as an alternate devotional prayer. It did not exist in biblical times, just as we do not find the word “Trinity” in the Bible. there are some things about the faith like this that are not in Scripture.

I suspect that you dont’ understand the doctrine of infallibilty. You are right, though, the pope is just a man.

We had no Rosary at the time of the Bible…Jesus give the Keys to heaven to Peter its called Apostolic SUCCESSION,NON-CATHLOICS DO NOT HAVE IT.

While it is true that Protestants separated themselves from the Apostolic Succession, the Catholic Church recognizes the Succession in the Orthodox communion, which is not considered to be in union with the Bishop of Rome.

 

[guanophore]

In the Word of God Paul speaks of writing to the Saints. Now was he writing to dead people or alive. They are alive. Those who have gone on to be with the Lord cannot hear or intercede our prayers. There are only a couple of instances that God allowed someone to come back from being in the presense of the Lord. If you pray to anyone else you are praying in vain. Jesus is the only one to mediate on our behalf to God the father.

Of course, the scriptures are written to the baptized - those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, and made their souls white as snow. Not everyone’s soul stays that white ,though.

I am curious to learn why you think Samuel, Moses, and Elijah were able to hear and intercede on earth after they departed.

What makes you think persons are any less in the presence of the Lord because they are allowed t appear or take actions here on earth? Do you think Jesus was not “inthe presence of the Lord” when He ws here on earth?

Intercession is not the same as Jesus’ eternal mediation of our salvation through His blood.

You can be sure you are saved by following what the scriptures say on salvation.

The problem with this is that everyone who reads scripture interprets them differently, so that is why we have so many different opinions about what is necessary for salvation.

Another problem with this is, what about the people who were “saved” before the NT was written?

Since the NT did not exist until 382, does that mean no one got saved for four centuries?

Why do you continue to reply when your have no clue what you are saying. …those believers that are with Christ are not interceding for us.

I think the same could be said of yourself!

Rev 5:8-9
8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; 9 and they sang a new song, saying,

Where did these prayers come from, and why are the elders holding them?

Rev 8:3-4
and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Why do you suppose that God revealed to the Apostle John that there are elders and angels with the prayers of the saints, if they are not participating in our prayers?

If you really study the bible you would know that christ is interceding for us to the father.

Well, of course! It is in His generosity that others are allowed to participate.

I know i have been saved because of what God's Word says not by someone like you who continue to spread lies about God's Word.

This is pretty uncharitable ofyou freedom. Just because we understand Scritpure differently than you, it does not make us “liars”. A lie is a deliberate attempt to deceive someone. We really believe what the Apostles taught!

Every time I see a reply from you i pray that no one follows your lies. Please take some time off and really study God’s Word. I think your ego has gotten in the way. Remember there is greater condemnation for those who do not share the truth of God’s Word.

It is true that it is ego that gets in the way. Those who are not willing, as newborn babes, to receive the implanted word from the Apostles often fly off into ego trips about scripture. These persons reject the faith that was committed by the Apostles to the Church.

 

[guanophore]

Denial of the mediatorship of Christ: To use any mere human being to mediate with God is an insult to the all-sufficient, divinely appointed mediatorship of Jesus Christ. I Tim 2:5, Jn 10:9, 14:6/ Hebrews 4:15-16 assures us that in Jesus “we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness”

Yes, I agree. However, the supplications we make to the saints are possible BECAUSE of the all sufficient mediatorship of Christ. It is He who makes us One in His Body, the Church.

Finally It is an insult to the Holy Spirit: To pray to the dead is a denial of the work of the Holy Spirit. Rom 8:6, Eph 2:18

Yes. That is another reason we don’t pray to anyone who is 'dead".

You call me an angry anti catholic which i am not,

Well, when you start saying that people who interpret scripture differently than you are “liars” it sounds pretty angry.

Your views are very anti-Catholic. You may not realize this because you have a gross misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church teaches. You are definitely against what you THINK the Catholic Church teaches.

you call me ignorant.

In our culture, this term has an insulting connoation. What it literally means is that you are lacking knowledge. In this case, you lack knowledge of what the Apostles believed and taught.

First, let’s consider praying for the dead. The Catholic Church teaches that Christians who are alive on earth can come to the assistance of the souls in Purgatory by (among others) intercessory prayers as well as alms giving [giving to the poor] and other pious works.

Evangelicals reject this on the basis that there is no Scriptural support whatsoever for this doctrine.

I think this really sums up the issue. See, Christianity is not a “religion of the book”. The Church that Jesus founded was built upon the Apostles and Prophets. This was their practice, and that is what they committed to their successors. We retain this practice because it is part of the “once for all” deposit of faith to the Church. This practice was alive and well for the first 400 years before the NT was adopted. Our faith practices do not come from the Bible. They are REFLECTED in the Bible. Also, since you have rejected part of the Canon that was used by the Apostles, it is understandible that you are missing part of God’s revelation in this matter.

Second, let’s consider praying to Mary and the saints. The Catholic Catechism says:

“The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives… They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them [the saints] to intercede for us and for the whole world.” Pg. 645, #2683 (See also Pg. 249, #956)

And so the church encourages its followers to pray prayers like this popular pray to Mary…

“O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to call on thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.”

Whee did you find this? I fear you are cutting and pasting without citing your source, which is against the forum rules. I see a little asterisk there by the end, so I know you did not make it up.

Catholics are encouraged by the Roman Catholic Church to pray prayers like this, not to God, but to Mary!! I read this and I gasp! Can we talk favorably about a religion who would encourage its followers to pray to something, or someone else rather than God?

I have never been encouraged by the Catholic Church to pray that prayer. I suspect it is part of someone’s private devotion, which is not binding upon the faithful.

However, supplications and requests for help from other Christians are normal and biblical. There is no reason they should make you gasp, unless you think you don’t ever need any help from other Christians.

 

[guanophore]

When a person continues to provide misinterpretations after being shown where they are wrong, they begin to be lies.

No, freedom. This interpretation is correct for him. Your disagreement with it does not make it wrong. Does he not have the right to interpret scripture as much as you do?

This is not the only thread that i have come across that he will not listen.

We are all listening. We cannot AGREE with you. We are not permitted to accept a different gospel than the one that was committed to us by the Apostles.

For me not to expose these misinterpretations would show a lack of charity. It does not matter if they are catholic or not. If I am wrong in the scriptures i have no problem accepting that. Some people do and they need to be exposed.

What does it mean to be “wrong in the scriptures”?

On the contrary, I would say the “wrong” is in your perceptions. You have separated the Scriptures from the Teachings committed to the Church by the Apostles. Of course you will understand them differently!

This forum is to discuss differences, and the name calling is not helpful. I see you have been told this already, and I am late to the thread, but I wanted to add my voice to theirs.

Never said anything about intercessory prayer for each other did I. My point is prayer to someone who is called a saint. My point is that they are dead and with christ.

If you read the epistles, you will see that they are all addressed to “saints”. Saints are those who are in Christ. Jesus says they will never die, so I don’t know why you are trying to contradict our Lord. It seems to me that Samuel, Moses, and Elijah are very much alive, and knoe exactly what is going on here.

They cannot hear your prayer. So why pray to someone who can’t hear your prayers and not go straight to Christ.

There are two errors here. One is that they cannot “hear” our prayers. You will have to demonstrate that the above mentioned saints could not “hear”, and if not, how did they have a conversation! Second, you erroneously seem to believe that asking others for their prayers means that we do not “go straight to Christ”.

I also didn’t say that just by believing in Christ you are saved alone. We are to show fruits of our salvation in Christ. This is not a personal attack. Just trying to expose those misinterpretations and if your ego gets in the way where you feel you are unteachable then take that up with the Lord. God Bless Brother:thumbsup:

I am glad to hear that you believe a saved person demonstrates fruit.

It is a pretty personal attack to call a person a liar just because they do not agree with how you interpret scripture.

Those scriptures from Rev 5:8 and 8:4. Where does it say that they are holding the prayers to the saints? I read it as prayers of the saints.

I think you are afraid to find out that scripture contradicts what you have been told to believe. It is clear from these passages that the incense offered in heaven is the prayers of the saints.

I read it as prayers of the saints. James 5:16 those prayers are to be prayed to who, dead believers?

No. Catholics hold that all who have died in Christ (believers) live forever. There is nothing to prevent us from asking their intercession just like we do those who are still in this life.

It is The Lord v.14 Again in Rom 12:4-5 where do you see that the living are to pray to those who have gone on to be with the Lord? Same goes with I Corinthians. This passage is talking about the unity of the church.

Exactly. there is no spiritual separation in the Body between those who are here, and those who have gone on to be with the Lord. We do not cease to be members one of another.

You still don’t make any sense

The Scriptures were meant to be understood in the light of Apostolic Teaching. It is difficult for people who are separated from it to make sense of them without great mental gymnastics.

Two of the last scriptures doesen’t even talk about prayers to the dead sorry Saints. Who do you think these prayers are from the living or dead?

There is no distinction between the two. Those who are in Christ are alive foreevermore. Catholics only pray to the living. The prayers are mingled together.

You haven't shown anything in the scriptures that you have provided. Again where does it say in Rev that those prayers are to those in the presense of Christ

Who do you think the elders are? Do you think they are not in the presence of God? Do you think they are not praying? I guess I don’t understand what you see when you read it.

I believe those are the prayers to God that they are holding.

Right…so, where did they come from? They are already in heaven. Do you think the prayers are their own?

 

[guanophore]

 If not like you say, Why even bother then to pray to God. You see it doesn't make any sense. Protestants don't need anyone to intercede for us other than Christ.

Why does anyone bother to ask for prayers from anyone else? You have mixed up intercession with eternal mediation. You have stated you are praying for another member here. Why would you need to do that, when Christ is interceding for him? I think you don’t realize how untenable your position really is.

God is the only proper object of our prayers: Nowhere in scripture is a prayer of anyone on earth actually addressed to anyone but God.

Such a statement reflects a deficient understanding of prayer. While it is true that God is the only proper object of adoration/worship, there are many forms of prayer. David, in the Psalms, enjoins everyone and everything to praise God! He addresses the angels, creation, all the people, etc. This is called “supplication” (asking) or in David’s case, he often uses an imperative mode (directing).

Prayer is an act of religious devotion and therefore only God is the proper object of such devotion

This statement also reflects a deficient understanding of religious devotion. There are a great variety of acts of religious devotion, and although they are all properly conducted “in the name of” God, there are other objects involved. For example:

James 1:26
26 If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man’s religion is vain.

The object of this devotion is a very disciplined bridling of the tongue.

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

The object of this devotion is t care for orphan/widows, and to keep oneself pure.

However, I do agree that God is the only proper object for worship/adoration.

 "Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth for I am God; there is no other!" Isa 45:22

You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that Catholics fail to turn to God when asking for prayers from others. This is false.

Prayer to anyone else is idolatrous: Prayer is a form of worship and only God should be worshiped Ex 20:3

Actually, it is the other way around. Worship is one form of prayer, which, as you note, should only be directed to God. Supplications, intercessions, thanksgiving, and praise are other forms of prayers. Catholics direct supplications to others as well as God.
Cornelius sent for Peter, supplicating him to come to his home and bring him what God wanted him to hear. This is and example of prayer to the saints. Peter answered Cornelius prayer because God directed him to do so.

It is forbidden as witchcraft: The OT condemns all att  empts to communicate with the dead along with other condemnations of witchcraft Dt 18:10-12, Lev 20:6, 27; 1 Sam 28:5-18, Isa 8:19-20

Right. This is why Catholics only supplicate the living.

This is absolutely contradicted by the Bible. The Bible says…

Philippians 4:6

“…let your requests be made known to [who?] God”

Jesus taught us to pray to…

Matthew 6:9

“Our Father who art in heaven…”

The Apostle Paul writes…

1 Timothy 2:5

“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus”

You are misunderstanding, freedom. These are part of prayers to God. God is the center of the Catholic faith. God is the center of Mary’s faith. We are not asking anyone else to mediate our salvation for us. Only Christ can and did that. Asking for spiritual help is something we do from other believers, both here, and those that have gone on before us in faith.

There are prayers in the Bible from Genesis all the way to the Book of Revelation, and NONE of them are addressed to a saint, an angel, or anyone other than God.

Well, we read them differently, don’t we!

Catholics understand that there are many kinds of prayer, worship/adoration being only one. Supplication and intercession are others. There are also imprecatory prayers, but we probably should not get into that here, since you are still on the milk.

In fact, numerous passages in the Old Testament condemn all attempts to communicate with the dead.

That is one reason we only pray to the living.

Is it a serious thing that the Catholic Church would mislead multitudes of people away from the living God and into prayer to the dead?

If this were to happen, which it never would, then yes, it would be very serious. It woudl show that Jesus is too weak to keep His promises to guide the Church into all truth.

It does show you though how serious God takes the issue though.

This being the case, I strongly urge that you avoid making any prayers to the dead.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Yes, I agree. However, the supplications we make to the saints are possible BECAUSE of the all sufficient mediatorship of Christ. It is He who makes us One in His Body, the Church.

Yes. That is another reason we don’t pray to anyone who is 'dead".

Well, when you start saying that people who interpret scripture differently than you are “liars” it sounds pretty angry.

Your views are very anti-Catholic. You may not realize this because you have a gross misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church teaches. You are definitely against what you THINK the Catholic Church teaches.

In our culture, this term has an insulting connoation. What it literally means is that you are lacking knowledge. In this case, you lack knowledge of what the Apostles believed and taught.

I think this really sums up the issue. See, Christianity is not a “religion of the book”. The Church that Jesus founded was built upon the Apostles and Prophets. This was their practice, and that is what they committed to their successors. We retain this practice because it is part of the “once for all” deposit of faith to the Church. This practice was alive and well for the first 400 years before the NT was adopted. Our faith practices do not come from the Bible. They are REFLECTED in the Bible. Also, since you have rejected part of the Canon that was used by the Apostles, it is understandible that you are missing part of God’s revelation in this matter.

Whee did you find this? I fear you are cutting and pasting without citing your source, which is against the forum rules. I see a little asterisk there by the end, so I know you did not make it up.

I have never been encouraged by the Catholic Church to pray that prayer. I suspect it is part of someone’s private devotion, which is not binding upon the faithful.

However, supplications and requests for help from other Christians are normal and biblical. There is no reason they should make you gasp, unless you think you don’t ever need any help from other Christians.

does not one believe what matt has to say Mt 12’26=27

 

[guanophore]

One of the comments here on this thread said that the bible do not even mention the word bible in response to my comment that the bible dosen’t mention the rosary. But the bible does mention the word of God. The bible warns of long meaningless prayers and taught us the proper way to pray.

I am sorry to hear that you were engaged in long meaningless prayers. Perhaps you were not properly catechized. I wasn’t either. I hardly prayed! Never mind "long’.

I used to be a Catholic also and know what goes on. As a Catholic I prayed for a God-fearing wife for a long time. A few years ago I got married to one. She is a non-catholic, but her faith is great. I go to her church now. The lord love me so much that he saved me and led me to the truth.

I am glad that God is leading you to Himself. He did save you, when you were baptized, and will continue to lead you into the Truth, I am sure. I hope your presence here means that you know somewhere inside yourself that you never understood Catholcism properly.

I think you hit that nail on the head!

 

[guanophore]

How can you harmonize misinterpreting scriptures with those that show proof from the Word of God.

I am not sure what you are asking here. The Scriptures are expression of faith, not "proofs’. They demonstrate what the Apostles believed and taught. Your interpretations of them do not. It is good that you recognize there is a lack of harmony here, though.

your right i don’t want to learn anymore misinterpretations from the catholic faith. I went through it for a long time till the Lord led me to a church that teaches the Word of God with scriptures to back up their teachings. Please don’t leave mad Brother

If you are not here for Catholic Answers, why are you here? Some of your posts indicate that you are here to teach us, and lead us to what you believe is the “truth”. CAF is not a venue for you to evanglize us into your 'bible church".

I got this revelation about 3:00 this afternoon lol how about you You didn’t answer the question of if it is part of the canon of scripture then why didn’t Jesus or the disciples ever quote a part of Maccabees like they did other books

I am glad you are learning. Keep it up, it will sink in. Jesus and the Apostles used the Alexandrian Septuagint, and that is the source of most of their quotes. They also referred to Pagan writings (at least Paul did) and Sacred Tradition. Exact quotes from all the books in the Septuagint is not a requirement for their adoption by the Church.

it wasn’t a denomination that compiled the books of the bible:thumbsup:

You know, I think you spoke a truth here without realizing it. You are correct, it was not a denomination that compiled the books that belong in the Bible. It was the Catholic Church. All other ecclesial communities define themselves by which parts of Catholic Teaching they reject. This is why they are called “denominations”. The “de-nominate” themselves from the Apostolic Faith by unattaching from that which was nominated.

If these books were part of the canon of scripturs why did it take the Catholic church over 1500 years to pronounce them part of the canon.

This is a very good question! The answer is, they did not.

The early Church used the Old Testament according to the canon of the Septuagint (LXX).

The African Synod of Hippo, in 393, approved the New Testament, as it stands today, together with the Septuagint books, a decision that was repeated by Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419. These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine, who regarded the canon as already closed. Pope Damasus I’s Council of Rome in 382, issued a biblical canon identical to that. Damasus’s commissioning of the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible, c. 383, was instrumental in the fixation of the canon in the West. In 405, Pope Innocent I sent a list of the sacred books to a Gallic bishop, Exsuperius of Toulouse. **When these bishops and councils spoke on the matter, however, they were not defining something new, but instead were ratifying what had already become the mind of the Church. ** Thus, from the fourth century, there existed unanimity in the West concerning the canon (as it is today).

What happened was that a Catholic invented the printing press in 1440. He printed the most important book with it, the Bible. Just like all bibles before it, it contained the Septuagint. As the Reformation progressed, those who abandoned the Catholic faith found reasons to start taking books out of the Bible that did not agree with their theology. When such heresies are rampant, the Church makes a proclamaition to reiterate what was committed to the Church as the Truth.

The only way you could prove that the council of Trent prounounced something not beleived prior is to prove that the Council of Rome,a nd all those prior to it, did not accept the Septuagint. You would also have to explain why all bibles up to the Reformation included the deuterocanon. Good luck with that!

I did not say all the books but Maccabbe’s is not part of the canon of scripture. God determined which books would be in the Bible by giving their message to a prophet. So only books written by a prophet, an accredited spokesperson for God are inspired and belong in the canon of scripture. The Apocrypha books are not prophetic. No Apocrypha books claim to be written by a prophet. Even the Catholic scholar Cardinal Cajetan who opposed Luther rejected the Apocrypha.

No, freedom, this is also inaccurate. There are many of the books that are not written by anyone determined to be a prophet. some of these are in the NT! For example, how do you know who wrote the book of Matthew? There is nothing in it that indicates who the author may be. Same for the Gospel of John. Which prophet wrote the book of Hebrews?

Nice try, but this was not onen of the Criteria. You are right, Apocryphal books are not considered part of the canon. Many of them have a prophetic character, though. The books the Reformers took out are called “Deuterocanonical”, not Apocryphal. The Deuteros were used by Jesus and the Apostles.

 

[mark_a]

And why have false idols?

Is there such a thing as a true idol? Can someone here explain to me the difference between a true idol and a false idol?

Thanks in advance.

 

[guanophore]

Is there such a thing as a true idol? Can someone here explain to me the difference between a true idol and a false idol?

Thanks in advance.

I am looking forward to Derek_24ca explaining that too.

 

[Brother2]

Wow freedomwriter that is really toe to toe stuff eh. You are getting some ‘bad press’ there, and getting hit for what I wrote too, some miss quoting there…

Born again Catholic, sounds good to me…

We can certainly ask fellow Christians to pray for us…whether Roman Catholic or Protestant, one main reason is that they are Alive and able too.

Yes there some Saints in heaven, but I don’t see in the Bible where we can ask the ‘dead’ Saints to pray for us, the Scriptures advise praying for the Saints who were alive and being persecuted etc.

Who are the 24 Elders in Revelation, it could be symbolic you know.

Our Lord Jesus taught us how to pray? Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name…surely that is how we pray as Christians, and in Jesus name…

Sufficient to say, Roman Catholics need to beware of Spiritualism, talking to the dead,
next thing Mary will be making an appearance, or has she already?? Moving statues and visions of Mary…dangerous stuff my Brothers and Sisters…

Did you know that Lucifer the fallen archangel, Satan the father of lies, Devil the arch deceiver can impersonate dead people??? Happens regularly in Spiritualism, seances, New Age believers…Oh yes, beware my Brothers and Sisters!! Bible says Satan will appear as an angel of light, even impersonate our Lord Jesus at the last…so Mary would be no problem for him!!

Our Advocate before the Father is our Lord Jesus Christ!

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

 

[fbl9]

Proverbs 10:7"The MEMORY of the just will be blessed, but the name of the wicked will rot"…No one has yet to try explaining how a memory of the just is blessed…

No catholic beleives that a Saint acts on their own, it is God who answers prayers directed to Him, whether straight from my lips or the voice of those already in heaven.

 

[fbl9]

Actually what should be asked is why is not her writtings held in equality with the bible since Ellen is considered a prophetess…

 

[fbl9]

freedomwriter;5449848:

However, tide and time, events that are going to happen in our world when Church and State get together again and persecution starts up again in the West, many Christians are already being persecuted in many countries right now and we need to pray for them because our turn is approaching…give Rome half a chance and the stake could be set up again…ha I will probably be one of the first to be burned…a heretic on this Forum protesting against the errors of Rome…

Anyway enough! I repeat I respect all Christians including Roman Catholic Christians and we should all be preaching the Gospel of Good News to a dying world!!

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

Please define “Church”
Truth be known there are very few catholics in govt’ there are more of those who hate catholism in power.
No you are not a heratic
unless you once knew the truth and threw it away for what “truth” you now have

 

[Tomb54]

I don’t agree w/ the conclusions you draw from this but I don’t use the dc’s to discredit the RCC authority. At the end of the day, I think everyone of us acknowledges that at least for the RCC, the issue of OT canon was settled at Trent. Some may argue this happened earlier but there can be no doubt that Trent was the final say for the RCC.

The only reason I will take part in these discussions is that there are many Catholics who have read a few tracts from various popular Catholic apologists and assume everything in church history is a complete slam dunk for the RCC. It just isn’t that clean.

For example in a previous post, either on this thread or on another I posted from Jedin how there was debate as to the canonocity of the dc’s at Trent. While this fact doesn’t take away from the RCC’s authority it certainly does illustrate the fact that not everyone achknowledged the canon set at either Carthage or Hippo.

Additionaly at Trent there was discussion as to what had precedence…scripture or tradition. Many things/subjects/issues that Catholics ridicule Protestants for are a part of their history too.

I realize that I am not going to change your mind about the dc’s but only hope to show you that the history of them is rather complicated and it’s not as if Luther was the only person between Carthage and Trent to doubt their inspiration.

So far, this discussion has been pretty good. Much better than what often transpires here at CAF so we should continue.

To be fair, many non-Catholics use aguments that are simply terrible too. When I listen to debates between the better Catholic apologists and the better Protestant apologists I tend to learn a lot from both sides because they are knowledgeable enough for the most part to know what is and what isn’t a good argument.

I guess I have rambled enough…on w/ the discussion.

Actually Semper is kindof right in that the DC was questioned in the Council stated. I think St Jerome wanted to remove them because the Jews did it. The church decided not too because these book were in the Jewish Bible while Jesus and the Apostles were alive. But I doubt anyone would question the RCC finalized the NT books at these Councils and thus finalized the Christian Bible with none or very little agruments for the next 1000 years.

 

[Tomb54]

freedomwriter;5449848:

Very true freedomwriter. And besides that most of the saints are dead, so is the virgin Mary, laying in their graves awaiting the resurection at the second coming of our Lord

. Some saints are in heaven, Enoch walked into heaven, Elijah was taken up in a firey chariot, and Moses was resurected as an example of those who would rise again. Some saints were resurected along with our Lord and went to heaven with Him.

Spiritualism teaches that the soul lives on after death and this has been sown into the Christian Church by Satan the arch deceiver. The soul that sinneth it shall die the Bible says. Only God is immortal. Until we are given eternal life at the second coming of Christ.

Yes, preaching the Gospel to the unsaved is the most important activity for Christians, although we Protestants have to protest against Rome you know, the error that was sown into the Church in the early centuries by Satan the arch deceiver and has even been inherited by many of the Protestant Churches. That is one reason why there are so many Protestant Churches…each new one trying to remove the errors sown by Satan into the Christian Church.

Many Protestant Churches stopped where their founders stopped…it is better to be a Movement continually searching the Scriptures for Truth.

Rome claims to be ‘the one true church’, this is a big claim to make, also the Scriptures as interpreted by Rome, or by the Church Fathers, no no no, they cannot claim that for it is not true…even though I respect every Roman Catholic that they sincerely believe these things, and I believe God honours those who live up to the light that they have…I also agree with many of the Roman Catholic beliefs…

Once again Brother I appreciate you views and agree that the most important activity is not arguing between ourselves but preaching the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, Crucified and the wonderful Good News that He rose from the grave…death was defeated by our Saviour so that we to can rise again from the grave at His second coming, which is not long away, world events prove that, signs of the times according to the Bible.

I am well aware that my Church comes under much criticism and has done on this forum, and that is privilege of the forum, especially a Roman Catholic Forum…

However, tide and time, events that are going to happen in our world when Church and State get together again and persecution starts up again in the West, many Christians are already being persecuted in many countries right now and we need to pray for them because our turn is approaching…give Rome half a chance and the stake could be set up again…ha I will probably be one of the first to be burned…a heretic on this Forum protesting against the errors of Rome…

Anyway enough! I repeat I respect all Christians including Roman Catholic Christians and we should all be preaching the Gospel of Good News to a dying world!!

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.


You really think Jesus would leave is Mother in the Grave but take the Criminal next to him on calvery to heaven the very day he died? Does that sound like he is Honoring his mother?
I have a little problem with religions that started in the 1500 or later and all the sudden figure they got it right and the Catholic Chuch was wrong from the beginning. I thought Jesus said “The Gates of Hell Will Not Prevail against the Church” and the Holy Spirit would not allow it to be in Error.
You are right we should work together to preach to a dying world. But then why do you think the Church would persecute again and if I remember right during that time it was whoever controlled an area persecuted those who did not agree with them with Protestatn persecuting Protestant also like the Anabaptist being persecuted by Calvinist.

 

[guanophore]

I have never called the Pope or any of the bishops an Apostle because that is a name reserved only for those mentioned in the New Testament.

I think you are right about this.

The Pope, however, has been called an “Apostolic See” as mentioned in the website I posted for Tanner.

Actually, I think the “See” refers to the seat or location where the successor of the Apostle presides. There have traditionally be five major Apostolic Sees. These were known as the Pentarchy.

Rome, in Italy (Saint Peter and Paul the Apostle).
Constantinople, now Istanbul in present-day Turkey (Saint Andrew).
Alexandria, in present-day Egypt (Saint Mark the Evangelist)
Antioch, in present-day Turkey (Saint Peter).
Jerusalem, in the Holy Land (Saint James).

The Apostolic See in Rome is the only one with the Latin or Western Rite. The other four are Eastern Rite.

 

[Tomb54]

Wow freedomwriter that is really toe to toe stuff eh. You are getting some ‘bad press’ there, and getting hit for what I wrote too, some miss quoting there…

Born again Catholic, sounds good to me…

We can certainly ask fellow Christians to pray for us…whether Roman Catholic or Protestant, one main reason is that they are Alive and able too.

Yes there some Saints in heaven, but I don’t see in the Bible where we can ask the ‘dead’ Saints to pray for us, the Scriptures advise praying for the Saints who were alive and being persecuted etc.

Who are the 24 Elders in Revelation, it could be symbolic you know.

Our Lord Jesus taught us how to pray? Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name…surely that is how we pray as Christians, and in Jesus name…

Sufficient to say, Roman Catholics need to beware of Spiritualism, talking to the dead,
next thing Mary will be making an appearance, or has she already?? Moving statues and visions of Mary…dangerous stuff my Brothers and Sisters…

Did you know that Lucifer the fallen archangel, Satan the father of lies, Devil the arch deceiver can impersonate dead people??? Happens regularly in Spiritualism, seances, New Age believers…Oh yes, beware my Brothers and Sisters!! Bible says Satan will appear as an angel of light, even impersonate our Lord Jesus at the last…so Mary would be no problem for him!!

Our Advocate before the Father is our Lord Jesus Christ!

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

Jesus also said that God is the God of the living not the dead. He was talking about Abraham and Moses at the time.
As for visions of Mary this is why it take the Church so long to approve anything like this as the message must only point to Jesus and how to bring the Church closer to God.
Do you ask people in your church to pray for you if you do then you are doing the same thing except we believe that Saints are alive not dead and can also pray for us. Praying to the saints in Catholic terms is talking to them and asking for their prays for us.
Ellen White could also have been used by the devil as he can deceive many if they rely on their own interpetation of the Bible without the traditions and history of the early church. I have seen people state their concern for the degree of authority which Ellen G. White was given in interpreting the Bible.

 

[Brother2]

Brother2;5459988:

You really think Jesus would leave is Mother in the Grave but take the Criminal next to him on calvery to heaven the very day he died? Does that sound like he is Honoring his mother?
I have a little problem with religions that started in the 1500 or later and all the sudden figure they got it right and the Catholic Chuch was wrong from the beginning. I thought Jesus said “The Gates of Hell Will Not Prevail against the Church” and the Holy Spirit would not allow it to be in Error.
You are right we should work together to preach to a dying world. But then why do you think the Church would persecute again and if I remember right during that time it was whoever controlled an area persecuted those who did not agree with them with Protestatn persecuting Protestant also like the Anabaptist being persecuted by Calvinist.

With Respect tomb54 (lovely nickname by the way), the thief on the cross did not go to heaven that day, he also is asleep in the grave…there was no punctuation in those days? ‘I say unto you today, you will be with Me in paradise’, of course he will at the ressurection!! See Hebrews 3:15. also 4:7. I could go on Brother.

Whenever a church starts is largely irrelevant! Adventist Church came out of existing churches, all the initial members came from other Protestant denominations, so after 1500 does not really hold up…and the Protestant Churches came out of the Roman Catholic Church, which in turn came out of the early Church at Jerusalem…

This just goes back to the old story of the ‘one true church’, God has his Saints in every denomination which make up the true Christian Church…

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

PS. Yes Protestant persecuted too, I disagree with Roman Catholics being persecuted too!! And yes we can agree on taking the Gospel of Good News to a dying world!!

 

[Brother2]

Jesus also said that God is the God of the living not the dead. He was talking about Abraham and Moses at the time.
As for visions of Mary this is why it take the Church so long to approve anything like this as the message must only point to Jesus and how to bring the Church closer to God.
Do you ask people in your church to pray for you if you do then you are doing the same thing except we believe that Saints are alive not dead and can also pray for us. Praying to the saints in Catholic terms is talking to them and asking for their prays for us.
Ellen White could also have been used by the devil as he can deceive many if they rely on their own interpetation of the Bible without the traditions and history of the early church. I have seen people state their concern for the degree of authority which Ellen G. White was given in interpreting the Bible.

Ha beware the Traditions of men Brother!! I take your point about Ellen White especially when you don’t agree with her writings…however she did point people back to the Bible, her writings are full of advice to return to the Scriptures…at the time the Bible was quite neglected and needed to be renewed in the minds of Christians…people believed that the world was getting better and a golden age of the millennium was coming in…

I do understand about you praying to Saints if you believe they are all alive in heaven, I really do!! However, I don’t see much evidence in Scripture for it, our Lord asked us to pray to our Father in heaven, nowhere are we told to pray to Mary or Saints…I do understand also that you have other Books that you regard as inspired, so I do respect you for what you believe even though I do not agree with you.

Our Lord Jesus is our Mediator and we are to come ‘boldly’ to the Throne of Grace…

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.