praying to virgin mary and the saints

[freedomwriter]

Sure…Why not? I talk to my daddy all the time,& he went home to be with the Lord i=60 years ago come Christmas. I can know to a reasonable certainty that you are in a state of grace =saved] at any particular moment.
If I give into a natural but seriously sinful impulse to, say, :bigyikes:throw somebody into the nearest turkey fryer, I am, not to put too fine a point on it, well and truly…well…going tohttp://bestsmileys.com/evil/11.gif (No joke. Just the facts, ma’am.

Thank you, Jon, again, for your presence & your:thumbsup: words.

Umm…You do realize that you just said that Christ is dead?:crying:
The saints are either alive with Christ, or Christ is not risen from the dead, & the whole lot of us in this conversation (& all over the world) are "of all men most miserable, dead in our sins, & going to hell. Every single one who has ever lived is damned fro eternity.
So…Would you like to re-phrase that just a lily wean??? With respect–You may want to consider taking your own advice before you try to hand it out to somebody else.

Now** look**, yean, I was reading my Bible before ye were hatched, & take an old lady’s advice born of decades of experience,laddie, and dinnae try to teach ye’re granny how to suck eggs.
Bless you, Jon. Your Christian spirit is a bright & shining light, & a testimony to your faith in & love for Our Lord.

---

And since we are on the subject of prayer: I pray the rosary. Heck, I make rosaries. I consider it the deepest, most amazingly simple yet sophisticated way to center down into the presence of the Almighty.:shrug:So, shoot me.

Hi Miss Daisy, with all due respect even the oldest saints can be wrong. (I am talking to a living saint right?). I also did not mean that Christ is dead if that is how you took it. I also take my own advice. I can humble myself when i am wrong. I haven’t any problem with that. I am so glad to know that you have been reading the bible since i have been hatched lol When you reply could you respond with scripture to support your thoughts. Surely you could give us some correction with that many years of reading your bible. Have a blessed 4th of July Miss Daisy

 

[Bill_Pick]

Jharek, I,am very sorry My PC is acting up and I do not know what I,m doing. Please do not be mad at Me and to all other I,m sorry. PEACE

 

[Brendan]

Today, the meaning of the word tends to be reserved for something done to God alone, but until relatively recently, the word was simply a synonym for “to ask”

Actually, it still does, just look in Websters.

transitive verb
1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

It’s root is the Latin verb “precare”, to ask,or to implore.

Shakespear uses it correctly in Hamlet when Queen Gertrude prays to Hamlet

“I pray thee, go not to Whittenburg”

Gertrue IS PRAYING to Hamlet.

So when can see that there is nothing wrong with a one mortal praying to another.

The question then becomes if they can hear us. The Bible says that yes they can!!.

Look at the book of Hebrews, Paul tells us of the remarkable faith of the OT Saints (Heb 11:32-39) and then, in Heb 12:1 notes that they surround us as a cloud of witnesses.

Now, we know that they certainly can hear us, but are their prayers effective? Certainly, as James tells us, the prayers of a righteous man are powerful indeed (Jame 5:16)

 

[Zooey]

Hi Miss Daisy, with all due respect even the oldest saints can be wrong. (I am talking to a living saint right?). I also did not mean that Christ is dead if that is how you took it. I also take my own advice. I can humble myself when i am wrong. I haven’t any problem with that. I am so glad to know that you have been reading the bible since i have been hatched lol When you reply could you respond with scripture to support your thoughts. Surely you could give us some correction with that many years of reading your bible. Have a blessed 4th of July Miss Daisy

Well, first, as anyone who has been around here for more than 15 minutes could tell you…Miss Lily Daisy is my http://bestsmileys.com/cats1/19.gif , and whilst she is smarter than a lot of human people, cats are, thus far, incurably illiterate.
And, no, yean, I am no saint; I am still on this mortal coil with all the rest of the Church Militant. I live in hope and confidence in the infinite merits of the Saviour who shed His precious blood that we might have a better hope than the OT saints.
I suggest a close reading of the Gospel records, followed by close attention to the Revelation to St John on the Isle of Patmos, where we find that the saints in Heaven are pouring out their prayers for us all, before the one & only true God.
Dinnae be flippant, laddie; it is the truth, unless you are very long in the tooth indeed, that I have been in the Scriptures that long; I have been reading myself since I was 4 years old, & before that I listened to it being read by my grandmother, every night before I was tucked up in my bed,so dinnae think that I know just a wee verse here & there. I learned at her knee that there are three rules for proper understanding & interpretation of Scripture, and I commend them to you:
1st:** Context**;
2nd:** Context**;
&3rd being of course: Context.
Reading a text out of context (like a certain wee yean I might name if I were as rude an old lady as I am a cranky old lady), leads us to a pretext.
Now then, were you wanting your wee “proof text” in Latin, Dutch Netherlandic, or English?:curtsey I :coffeeread:cannae give you the German until after church tomorrow when I can consult my pastor on the Greek & Hebrew as well, and my mother the French teacher is…one of those saints who has joined the Church Triumphant, & is ever offering the prayers of the Church Militant before His altar).

The 4th of July. So it is, laddie. And a grand day, but ne’er so grand as the day Our Lord went here:
http://bestsmileys.com/religous/6.gif
Now** there** was an Independence Day!!!

 

[Zooey]

For one the book of Maccabees is not part of the canon of scripture. If you read the bible you will see that neither Jesus or the disciples quoted any of these books. As for the scriptures you posted, these do not have anything to do with purgatory LoL Come on now I showed you scripture why purgatory is not biblical Have a blessed 4th of July my friend

And this uch:revelation of the canon came to you–When, exactly?
Maccabees was in the canon from the beginning. It was only in the 18th C. that people finally got around to following Luther’s disapproval of it, & removed it from non-Catholic, non-EO Bibles. Not, I may add, for theological reasons; the publishers suddenly realized that since there were people who weren’t reading it all that much, they would just omit it it, & charge the same price as before for less Bible.
I cannot prove a family relationship with Reader’s Digest Condensed Books, but I think of it that way all the same…

http://bestsmileys.com/hugging/6.gif

 

[freedomwriter]

And this uch:revelation of the canon came to you–When, exactly?
Maccabees was in the canon from the beginning. It was only in the 18th C. that people finally got around to following Luther’s disapproval of it, & removed it from non-Catholic, non-EO Bibles. Not, I may add, for theological reasons; the publishers suddenly realized that since there were people who weren’t reading it all that much, they would just omit it it, & charge the same price as before for less Bible.
I cannot prove a family relationship with Reader’s Digest Condensed Books, but I think of it that way all the same…

Bestsmileys.com)

I got this revelation about 3:00 this afternoon lol how about you You didn’t answer the question of if it is part of the canon of scripture then why didn’t Jesus or the disciples ever quote a part of Maccabees like they did other books

 

[Benjamin8o8]

I got this revelation about 3:00 this afternoon lol how about you You didn’t answer the question of if it is part of the canon of scripture then why didn’t Jesus or the disciples ever quote a part of Maccabees like they did other books

why don`t you first answer this question:

Why didn`t your denomination compile the books of the Bible?

 

[freedomwriter]

why don`t you first answer this question:

Why didn`t your denomination compile the books of the Bible?

For one I asked the question that was not answered and for another it wasn’t a denomination that compiled the books of the bible:thumbsup:

 

[Benjamin8o8]

For one I asked the question that was not answered and for another it wasn’t a denomination that compiled the books of the bible:thumbsup:

Exactly it was The Church that Jesus Christ established who compiled the books of the bible. a denomination didn´t even have the chance to be- well a denomination.

 

[freedomwriter]

why don`t you first answer this question:

Why didn`t your denomination compile the books of the Bible?

If these books were part of the canon of scripturs why did it take the Catholic church over 1500 years to pronounce them part of the canon.

 

[Zooey]

freedomwriter:

why didn’t Jesus or the disciples quote Maccabees like they did other books

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

Matt. 2:16 - Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - treasure in heaven;Sirach 29:11.
Matt… 7:12 -: converse of Tobit 4:15
Matt. 7:16,20 “you will know them by their fruits” : Sirach 27:6
Matt. 9:36 - “like sheep without a shepherd” : Judith 11:19
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ “Lord of heaven and earth”: Tobit 7:18
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to book of Wisdom
Matt. 16:18 “power of death” & “gates of Hades” : Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Tobit 3:8 & 7:11
Matt. 24:15 “desolating sacrilege” : 1 Macc. 1:54& 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - “flee to the mountains” : 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him: Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 seeds fall on rocky ground, no root:Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - hell descibed: Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth calls Mary’s blessed: Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Magnificat: Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon: Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - men from east and west rejoice in God: Baruch 4:37.
Luke 21:24 - “fall by the edge of the sword”: Sirach 28:18.
Luke 24:4& Acts 1:10 - two men in dazzling apparel: 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 1:3 - all made thru Him, the Word: Wisdom 9:1.
John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven: Baruch 3:29.
John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus, Luke and Paul-“signs and wonders”: Wisdom 8:8.
John 5:18 - Jesus calls God His Father: Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse: Sirach 24:21.
John 10:22 - the feast of dedication: 1 Macc. 4:59.
John 10:36 – Jesus analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration: 1 Macc. 4:36.
John 15:6 - branches don’t bear fruit + are cut down: Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
Acts 1:15 - Luke’s 120: 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - God shows no partiality: Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - false gods as like gold+ silver made by men:Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul’s on the knowledge of the Creator & the ignorance and sin of idolatry:Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - God’s existence seen in nature: Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles:Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 idolatry results in sexual perversion: Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham father of many nations: Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - death and sin the world: Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - the potter& the clay,2 kinds of vessels:Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - “who has known the mind of the Lord?”:Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony:Sirach 36:18, 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul says many “gods” but one Lord: Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea: Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - pagans sacrifice to demons not to God:Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf: 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - prayer for a “spirit of wisdom”:Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 breastplate of righteousness: Wis. 5:18.Also 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 whole armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield; Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - God King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
2 Tim. 4:8 - crown of righteousness: Wisdom 5:16.
Heb. 4:12 - God’s word as sword:Wisdom 18:15.
Heb. 11:5 - Enoch taken up: Wis 4:10 & Sir 44:16; Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.
Heb 11:35 - martyrdom of mother+ sons: 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
Heb. 12:12 - “drooping hands” & “weak knees”:Sirach 25:23.
James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond: Sirach 5:11.
James 2:23 - reckoned to him as righteousness: 1 Macc. 2:52 -
James 3:13 - perform works in meekness:Sirach 3:17.
James 5:3 - silver which rusts& laying up treasure: Sirach 29:10-11.
James 5:6 - condemning & killing “righteous man”:Wisdom 2:10-20.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - testing by purgatorial fire: Wisdom 3:5-6 & Sirach 2:5.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds: Sirach 16:12
2 Peter 2:7 - God’s rescues righteous man (Lot): Wisdom 10:6.
Rev. 1:4 –7 spirits who are before His throne :Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is 1 of 7 angels who present prayers of the saints before the Holy One.
Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death& gates of Hades: Wis. 16:13.
Rev. 2:12 - two-edged sword is similar to God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.
Rev. 5:7 - God seated on His throne, Sirach 1:8.
Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by angel: Tobit 12:12,15.
Rev. 8:7 - rain of hail &fire to earth: Wisdom 16:22 & Sirach 39:29.
Rev. 9:3 - rain of locusts on earth: Wisdom 16:9.
Rev. 11:19 - the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of gloryprophesied: 2 Macc. 2:7.
Rev. 17:14 - God = King of kings: 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 19:1 - “Hallelujah” at the coming of new Jerusalem: Tobit 13:18.
Rev. 19:11 - the Lord on a white horse in the heavens: 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.
Rev. 19:16 - our Lord as King of kings: 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 21:19 new Jerusalem with precious stones:Tobit13:17.
Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53
Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercession of deceased Samuel for Saul:Sirach 46:20.
2 Tim. 3:16 - Scripture that Paul was refers to includes deuterocanon.
The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom & parts of Daniel +Esther; in the Septuagint that Jesus& apostles used.
Sir. and 2 Macc – Jews that rejected them-Jamnia- 90 - 100 A.D. were the councils reject the NT & Christ

 

[Zooey]

If these books were part of the canon of scripturs why did it take the Catholic church over 1500 years to pronounce them part of the canon.

They were always part of the canon.
It was just that after 1500 years of acceptance, Luther unilaterally declared them out…“Because Dr Luther says so”–Martin Luther

I’ve said it before, and I’ll no doubt say it again: “I think I have an idea to make the Bible more popular; let’s throw out the Ten Commandments and put in the ‘Six or Seven Excellent Suggestions’…and if anyone doesn’t like it, tell them that it is so because Zooey says sohttp://bestsmileys.com/tongs/11.gif."neener, neener, neener”
I’ve got just as much right as Luther to make these executive decisions. I can say “because I say so” just as loud as anybody else in the room. (And:newidea: unlike Luther,I can do it in:wink:** King James English**).

 

[Brendan]

I got this revelation about 3:00 this afternoon lol how about you You didn’t answer the question of if it is part of the canon of scripture then why didn’t Jesus or the disciples ever quote a part of Maccabees like they did other books

Freedom writer, on a related note, could you tell me where Christ or an Apostle quotes from the following books: Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum?

Don’t forget to add the book chapter and verse for each reference please.

 

[Church_Militant]

Catholics pray the rosary and recite prayers to Virgin Mary. Also, Catholics pray to the saints.

Instead of praying to Mary and the saints for help, why not just pray to God?

I’m so glad you asked! Here’s the article I wrote on my blog dealing with this very topic. The Intercession & Communion of Saints

Another thing, catholics also use statues of the saints, Virgin Mary, and of Jesus. But dosent’ this contradict what the bible says?

Gosh! You really have hit on all the topics that I had to satisfy for myself! Happily, here’s another blog article that I wrote on this topic too. (Thank You Jesus! :extrahappy Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

And why have false idols?

See the article above

One of the comments here on this thread said that the bible do not even mention the word bible in response to my comment that the bible dosen’t mention the rosary.

The Bible also doesn’t even infer anywhere that it is to be the sole and ultimate authority for all that Christians believe and the New Testament itself shows us that the apostles read and accepted tradition and taught from it. I have a couple of articles on my blog about it.
Infallibility & How The Apostles Taught the Study of Sacred Tradition.
Tradition? No way!

But the bible does mention the word of God.

Sure does…in several different contexts as in the 1st chapter of St. John’s Gospel, but again, nowhere is there a passage of scripture that specifically claims sole and ultimate authority for itself and I defy you to provide one. It’s simply not there and that errant interpetation has only been around for the last 500 years or so which makes it a new wind of doctrines of men.

The bible warns of long meaningless prayers and taught us the proper way to pray.

I’ve never seen anything against long prayers, and nothing I pray has ever been meaningless.

I suppose you will take issue with Our Lord Himself since as a faithful Jew He would have prayerd the same prayers in temple and on feasts. And then of course He was obviously dead wrong to repeat the same prayer 3 times in the Garden of Gethsemane on the night He was arrested, right?

I used to be a Catholic also and know what goes on.

Really? Well I used to be a non-Catholic for over 30 years, so I guess I also “know what goes on.” Here’s My Testimony as to why I am now a Catholic.

As a Catholic I prayed for a God-fearing wife for a long time. A few years ago I got married to one. She is a non-catholic, but her faith is great. I go to her church now. The lord love me so much that he saved me and led me to the truth.

Sorry freind, but you have been decieved by well meaning people with Bibles. I know because that is what happened to me.

You would do well to sit down and honestly compare what you have come to believe with both the Bible and Catholic teaching. Shoot me a PM if you want to get into it because I can hook you up with the sources.

 

[Church_Militant]

Catholics pray the rosary and recite prayers to Virgin Mary. Also, Catholics pray to the saints.

Instead of praying to Mary and the saints for help, why not just pray to God?

I’m so glad you asked! Here’s the article I wrote on my blog dealing with this very topic. The Intercession & Communion of Saints

Another thing, catholics also use statues of the saints, Virgin Mary, and of Jesus. But dosent’ this contradict what the bible says?

Gosh! You really have hit on all the topics that I had to satisfy for myself! Happily, here’s another blog article that I wrote on this topic too. (Thank You Jesus! :extrahappy Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

And why have false idols?

See the article above.

 

[Church_Militant]

If these books were part of the canon of scripturs why did it take the Catholic church over 1500 years to pronounce them part of the canon.

Because no one challenged them until then. The only reason that Trent defined it was because the so-called “reformers” errantly attacked it.

 

[freedomwriter]

Freedom writer, on a related note, could you tell me where Christ or an Apostle quotes from the following books: Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum?

Don’t forget to add the book chapter and verse for each reference please.

I did not say all the books but Maccabbe’s is not part of the canon of scripture. God determined which books would be in the Bible by giving their message to a prophet. So only books written by a prophet, an accredited spokesperson for God are inspired and belong in the canon of scripture. The Apocrypha books are not prophetic. No Apocrypha books claim to be written by a prophet. Even the Catholic scholar Cardinal Cajetan who opposed Luther rejected the Apocrypha.

 

[freedomwriter]

Because no one challenged them until then. The only reason that Trent defined it was because the so-called “reformers” errantly attacked it.

For 1500 yrs?

 

[freedomwriter]

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

Never said the Apocrypha books were not used. I said they are not part of the canon of scriptures.

 

[antonivs]

I did not say all the books but Maccabbe’s is not part of the canon of scripture. God determined which books would be in the Bible by giving their message to a prophet. So only books written by a prophet, an accredited spokesperson for God are inspired and belong in the canon of scripture. The Apocrypha books are not prophetic. No Apocrypha books claim to be written by a prophet. Even the Catholic scholar Cardinal Cajetan who opposed Luther rejected the Apocrypha.

Here is what Cardinal Cajetan wrote and commentary by someone named Carrie concerning it:

“Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.”

Carrie: “Cajetan recognized that though the deuterocanonicals may be called canonical, they were not recognized as canonical in the same sense as the other Old Testament books.”

source: thesearewritten.blogspot.com/2007/08/cardinal-cajetan-on-biblical-canon.html