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fbl9
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it ain’t my post you are talking about.
Now can any one tell us just how the the mere memory of the just is blessed?
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Now can any one tell us just how the the mere memory of the just is blessed?
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freedomwriter
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Why respond if you can’t give scripture. Leave it to someone that will. I simply asked the question why pray to mary or the saints. I am responding to your reply.
Bill,
Please go back and reread what I’ve written. I think you’ll find I haven’t bashed the CC, quite the contrary.
Jon
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freedomwriter
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Could you provide scripture from your thought on why we should or shouldn’t pray to Mary and the saints. I would like your thought on this subject. I really don’t want to go to someone else’s reply. Thanks God Bless
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Bill_Pick
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JonNC, the post was not for you,it was for fbl9,sorry if I made a error
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Bill_Pick
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Originally Posted by Bill Pick
fb9 I went back and look at post (I think it was 209) and it was a very good post and I can see you are not looking for the truth and you have been very rude , You are not being very good Christian and are giving a bad name to christians I hope you change in time and become more repectful to people, May Our Lord bless you and your…
On this issue, I look to the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, which says in part:
IOW, there is nothing certain in scripture supporting the invocation of saints. But there is certainly numerous scripture supporting our calling on Christ Himself: Matt. 11:28
John 5:23. etc.
Therefore, calling on Christ in heaven has a certainty of being heard that is lacking in the invocation of the saints. That the Church in heaven prays for us is clear by scripture, Zech. 1:12, etc. That they hear our request for prayer is not clear.
That does not, however, mean I condemn Catholics for doing something that their tradition has done for centuries, joined in some ways by those in the East.
Hope that helps.
Jon
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Bill_Pick
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The warning is not to communicate with the Dead, Saints are not dead they are alive as all are alive to God Deut. 18:10
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Robert_in_SD
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Where in the bible does it say that prayer and adoration are interchangeable concepts? Again, Catholics agree that adoration (i.e. worship) is something reserved for God alone. Where does it say that a man cannot make a petition for help from someone other than God - I.e Father Abraham, please help me, or my family members.
What if every prayer to a saint began with a phrase like: “Dear saint _____: I know you are not God, or even a lesser divinity, but that you are a sanctified man (or woman) who now lives in the presence of God as a member of the body of Christ. If it is God’s will, please make the following prayer request: [Add intention here.]”
I see no reason why such a petition would be a violation of Scripture, despite your conclusion to the contrary. What it seems to contradict is your very restrictive definition of the word “prayer” in a manner that makes it synonymous with the terms worship or adoration. Your only proof for such a restriction is that “you say it it so.” That’s no proof at all - unless you claim authority to interpret scripture.
Peace,
Robert
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Robert_in_SD
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I think it is important to add that Catholics do pray directly to God the Father. All of the prayers of the mass are directed to God. Spontaneous prayer is to God. The amount of seeking intercession of the saints is, as a practical matter, a small part of the prayer life of a practicing Catholic. I think that this is sometimes forgotten (if it was ever known) by some of those strongly opposed to the practice.
And to be fair, I would tell a Catholic whose devotion to a saint was getting in the way of a real and personal relationship with Jesus Christ that such a devotion was not a healthy one.
Prayers to saints should be an adjunct to a healthy Catholic prayer life, and not the center of attention. It is as an acknowledgement of the reality of the Family of God that such prayer increases that loving relationship between God and His Church, and those of His Church with God and each other. If saying a Hail Mary or a Litany of the Saints does not move you closer to God, try something else by all means. But again, I say that understood properly, a good devotion to the saints only increases one’s love of God and gratitude for Christ and His Lordship over all of us.
Peace,
Robert
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Bill_Pick
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When Catholics pray to Mary and the other saints in Heaven they are not bypassing Christ, whom they acknowledge as the sole Mediator between God and man. They are going to Christ through Mary and the other saints. They are asking Mary and other saints to intercede for them before the throne of Christ in Heaven. “For the continual prayer of a just man avail much.” (James 5:16). How much more availing is the unceasing prayer of the sinless Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ! St. Paul asked his fellow Christians to intercede for him: “Brethren, pray for us.” (2 Thess. 3:1). And again: “I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God…” (Rom. 15:30). Christ must particularly approve of our going to Him through Mary, His Blessed Mother, because He chose to come to us through her. And at Cana, He performed His first miracle after a word from His Mother. (John 2:2-11).
It is clear in Sacred Scripture that the saints in Heaven will intercede for us before the throne of Christ if they are petitioned in prayer (Apoc. Or Rev. 8:3-4), and it is clear in the records of primitive Christianity that the first Christians eagerly sought their intercession. Wrote St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century: “When thou perceives that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies, but to His friends, the martyrs the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power.” If the saints have such power with God, how much more His own Mother.
It is clear in Sacred Scripture that the saints in Heaven will intercede for us before the throne of Christ if they are petitioned in prayer (Apoc. Or Rev. 8:3-4), and it is clear in the records of primitive Christianity that the first Christians eagerly sought their intercession. Wrote St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century: “When thou perceives that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies, but to His friends, the martyrs the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power.” If the saints have such power with God, how much more His own Mother.
Robert,
thanks for your comments. I have a question that seems to relate here. Eucharisted, on another thread, made this comment about the doctrine of sola Christus:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=356197
Do Catholics teach Christ as the sole mediator?
Jon
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freedomwriter
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Protestants reject this on the basis that there is no Scriptural support whatsoever for this doctrine. There is not a single example, in the Bible of a person praying for a person who has died.
This is absolutely contradicted by the Bible. The Bible says…
Philippians 4:6
“…let your requests be made known to [who?] God”
Jesus taught us to pray to…
Matthew 6:9
“Our Father who art in heaven…”
The Apostle Paul writes…
1 Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus”
There are prayers in the Bible from Genesis all the way to the Book of Revelation, and NONE of them are addressed to a saint, an angel, or anyone other than God. In fact, numerous passages in the Old Testament condemn all attempts to communicate with the dead. Those verses include:
–Deuteronomy 18:10-12
–Leviticus 20:6, 27
–1 Samuel 28:5-18
–Isaiah 8:19-20
In the Old Testament, if a person violated these commands they were to be put to death?
For the sake of time i pasted part of an article written by Charlie Campbell and Norman Geisler. I do agree with them on what the Word of God has to say on this issue. Hope this helps. God Bless
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Reuben_J
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I can understand why Protestants reject this. You lack History and you read the Bible as if it falls from the sky today and try to decipher the message through 21st century lens. Of course it’s never the conventional way to understand a written book but that’s what they do.
Protestants say they listen and allow the Holy Spirit to teach them. The problem with this is that both Catholics and Protestants say they listen and allow the Holy Spirit to teach them. The question is of course who truly have the Holy Spirit when two people who claim to have the same Holy Spirit come out with totally contradicting message from him? Thus it certainly much more than just claims that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of Scripture. He can guide and inspire us but his message is never one of contradiction as he is the Spirit of order not of confusion.
Some messages never change and it is not for man to change them whenever they do not agree with each other.
How many times that we are reminded that lots of things and theology are not found in the Bible either?
Yes, but this does not say that we should not intercede for the dead. It only asks to present our request to God. If my request is for the repose of the soul of my loved one who has just departed, is not that a request too?
Sure we pray this prayer most of the time and many times. I don’t see any problem there.
This is a stated fact of Christianity and I do not see praying for the dead or asking those believers who have died to intercede for the living transgresses this Biblical verse nor are we denying that Jesus is the Mediator. The final decision is God’s and Jesus is God’s Son who came to earth to redeem us from our sins.
We know too that a third party does represent a client to a higher authority and sometimes that works. The centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant and Jesus did. On account of Mary, Jesus turned water into wine.
There were certainly people who spoke to angels in the Bible and Jesus did appear WITH Moses and Elijah.
The question here is praying to God for the dead or asking those who had died to intercede for us to God. This is not the only prayer that a Christian has in his disposal but there is nothing either in the Bible that says we cannot do this.
If you say the verses you quoted amount to the above then I am afraid your understanding of the Bible is truly suspect and if that is the case then you need to go through them again for a better understanding.
The verses you quoted are about mediums and worshipping the dead. You are wrong if you thought this is amounting to what Catholics do as some Protestants are wrong when they erroneously think we worships statues and icons.
Not a big fan of the two mentioned. If there is any dispute I would rather refer back to what the Church has been doing, practicing and believing. I cannot believe that God’s people made mistake all these 2000 years only to be corrected by the likes of Campbell and Geisler today.
God bless you too.
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Robert_in_SD
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Yes Jon. Absolutely. To the extent that the saints are in any position to offer their prayers and intercessions on our behalf, they do so because of Christ’s One Mediatorship. Their actions arise entirely because they, like us, are incorporated into the Body of Christ. There’s no “end run” past Christ by asking for a saint’s intercession, because … just like you and me, any prayer that saint can make is made through Jesus Christ as his or her One Mediator as well.
Peace,
Robert
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rinnie
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I am sorry but if we would pray to someone other than God we would be breaking a commandment. Never has the Catholic Church ever said that praying to the Blessed Mother and asking her help by praying with us and for us ever takes the place of God.
How would it be possible to while in our prayer’s we Pray Dear Blessed Mother please remember our Kids, Parents etc in your prayers and please ask your Son to help us, Could possibly replace God.
Hail Mary Full of Grace the Lord is with you (that is true we are saying God is with you Mary and you are full of Grace thats in the bible.
Blessed are thee among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. IS she again not blessed and her son not also blessed.
HOLY MARY MOTHER OF GOD PRAY FOR US SINNERS NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH AMEN.
Now where was Jesus Christ ever replaced. All we say is she is Holy, Holy means without sin, If you read Job he said the righteous will be listened by God. We are asking someone who is sinless and made perfect by Christ to help us who have not been made perfect yet. We ask for her prayers which we know are heard because she is righteous just like Job was righteous in Gods eyes. Now if you could explain to me where asking someone who is righteous to pray for you is a sin, and making her a false God and False Idol I would love for you to show me that. Did we call her the Blessed Mother and Mother of God or do we call her God. Did you ever see one Cathlic prayer that ever said Mary is equal to her son or above her son. I think Not. Mary just is the perfect example of bringing Glory to her son.
When we ask her to pray for us who are you saying she Prays to? What you are saying makes no sense to me. Why would we ask her to pray for us if we think shes God? Could you explain this to me. Please review the Hail Mary and get back to me. I would really appreciate this. Thanks.
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rinnie
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Freedom writer we are also taught as RC never to try to contact the dead. But contact of the dead is not forbiden if it is willed by God. God can and has used the dead many of times as angels to forewarn the living.
It happens to us in our dreams. But there is a big difference between them contacting us and us them. I think many of us can understand this. How many people have a dream about a loved one telling then something or warning them or waking them up just in time. But again there is a big difference. Fortune tellers are forbided in the Catholic Faith.
My Dad also told me also that if you keep thinking of someone that is dead, or keep dreaming of them they are in need of your prayers.
As RC we do not believe in death only everlasting life. We believe in souls being cleansed in purgatory and believe our prayers up here and good deeds can help others. So what if protestants are right and Catholics are wrong (which I do not think but anyway) what harm is it for a Catholic to pray for their loved ones, and do good for others. Only good can come out of being kind and praying for people.
But look at the other, just think if we are right. Think of the souls that your prayers and good works in this world COULD have helped, I will take my chances. I believe my Dad and Brother are with God, but just in case they many be in the process of being cleansed I pray for them every single time I think of them. And I will until the day I die. Trust me thats alot of prayers. You would never believe how much they come to my mind in a day. Then I pray that if they are already with God which I really do believe that my prayers and the good I do can be offered up to another soul in need.
How can God be mad at me for that.
It happens to us in our dreams. But there is a big difference between them contacting us and us them. I think many of us can understand this. How many people have a dream about a loved one telling then something or warning them or waking them up just in time. But again there is a big difference. Fortune tellers are forbided in the Catholic Faith.
My Dad also told me also that if you keep thinking of someone that is dead, or keep dreaming of them they are in need of your prayers.
As RC we do not believe in death only everlasting life. We believe in souls being cleansed in purgatory and believe our prayers up here and good deeds can help others. So what if protestants are right and Catholics are wrong (which I do not think but anyway) what harm is it for a Catholic to pray for their loved ones, and do good for others. Only good can come out of being kind and praying for people.
But look at the other, just think if we are right. Think of the souls that your prayers and good works in this world COULD have helped, I will take my chances. I believe my Dad and Brother are with God, but just in case they many be in the process of being cleansed I pray for them every single time I think of them. And I will until the day I die. Trust me thats alot of prayers. You would never believe how much they come to my mind in a day. Then I pray that if they are already with God which I really do believe that my prayers and the good I do can be offered up to another soul in need.
How can God be mad at me for that.
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rinnie
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Why is it when I show scripure proving praying to the saints it is ignored. What we don’t want to hear it, refuse to hear it or what.
Let me show it again for the hundreth time.
Here is is everyone as George Strait says WRITE THIS DOWN!
Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb each holding a harp and with the golden bowls full of imcense which are the prayers of the Saints.
Get it, do you see it now. Why did the saints fall down before the Lamb, the Lamb guys the Lamb of GOd, Get it now. Now how can us asking the Blessed Mother and other Saints to pray for us replace God in ANY way. Do you not see that the prayers we ask for are said right at the foot of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
And sorry you better read Deut 18:10-11 14-15 God indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information, one is to look to Gods Prophets instead. But common sense knows there is a difference between holding a seance to the dead to speak to you, and asking Dad at the Grave to have Jesus pray for you. The difference is between night and day one is a occult practice and the other a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on ones behalf.
You better read Deut again, what about in Matt when Moses and Elijah appear with Christ and his apostles at the transfiguration.
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