praying to virgin mary and the saints

[rinnie]

Here is another good piece of scripture ignored. Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous than anyone on earth, since they have been made perfect to stand in Gods presense. Heb 12:22-23

 

[murtad]

Two comments,

No translation that I know of says “Pray to Mary…”
bible.cc/romans/16-6.htm
Douay-Rheims Bible says:
“Salute Mary, who hath laboured much among you.”
and the NAB on the USCCB website says:
“Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.”

Catholic Church is Bible-based and we regard Holy Tradition as proper interpretation of Scripture. The Protestant concept of Sola Scriptura leads to multiple different interpretations from man-made interpretations of thousands of sects.

That said, if I were a Protestant and I advocate Sola Scriptura, I will interpret Bible in this way so that all of us must pray to Saint Mary the Mother of God! All Protestants must pray to St Mary as it is Biblical. Sadly, many Protestant Bibles such as RSV and NIV deliberately mistranslate this verse as “greet”, and so the NCC has mutilated the RSV text.

" Pray to Mary the Virgin, Theotokos, who hath worked hard among you."
( Book of Romans, Chapter 16, Verse 6 )

This is from NEW RHEIMS VERSION (NRV) and the use of the word Theotokos is proof this verse does not speak of any Mary but specifically the Mother of God.

 

[freedomwriter]

I can understand why Protestants reject this. You lack History and you read the Bible as if it falls from the sky today and try to decipher the message through 21st century lens. Of course it’s never the conventional way to understand a written book but that’s what they do.

Protestants say they listen and allow the Holy Spirit to teach them. The problem with this is that both Catholics and Protestants say they listen and allow the Holy Spirit to teach them. The question is of course who truly have the Holy Spirit when two people who claim to have the same Holy Spirit come out with totally contradicting message from him? Thus it certainly much more than just claims that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of Scripture. He can guide and inspire us but his message is never one of contradiction as he is the Spirit of order not of confusion.

Some messages never change and it is not for man to change them whenever they do not agree with each other.

How many times that we are reminded that lots of things and theology are not found in the Bible either?

Yes, but this does not say that we should not intercede for the dead. It only asks to present our request to God. If my request is for the repose of the soul of my loved one who has just departed, is not that a request too?

Sure we pray this prayer most of the time and many times. I don’t see any problem there.

This is a stated fact of Christianity and I do not see praying for the dead or asking those believers who have died to intercede for the living transgresses this Biblical verse nor are we denying that Jesus is the Mediator. The final decision is God’s and Jesus is God’s Son who came to earth to redeem us from our sins.

We know too that a third party does represent a client to a higher authority and sometimes that works. The centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant and Jesus did. On account of Mary, Jesus turned water into wine.

There were certainly people who spoke to angels in the Bible and Jesus did appear WITH Moses and Elijah.

The question here is praying to God for the dead or asking those who had died to intercede for us to God. This is not the only prayer that a Christian has in his disposal but there is nothing either in the Bible that says we cannot do this.

If you say the verses you quoted amount to the above then I am afraid your understanding of the Bible is truly suspect and if that is the case then you need to go through them again for a better understanding.

The verses you quoted are about mediums and worshipping the dead. You are wrong if you thought this is amounting to what Catholics do as some Protestants are wrong when they erroneously think we worships statues and icons.

Not a big fan of the two mentioned. If there is any dispute I would rather refer back to what the Church has been doing, practicing and believing. I cannot believe that God’s people made mistake all these 2000 years only to be corrected by the likes of Campbell and Geisler today.

God bless you too.

Thank you for your comments. Could you provide scriptures to what you believe in. Thank you God Bless

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by JonNC

No translation that I know of says “Pray to Mary…”
bible.cc/romans/16-6.htm
Douay-Rheims Bible says:
“Salute Mary, who hath laboured much among you.”
and the NAB on the USCCB website says:
“Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.”

=murtad;5441257]Catholic Church is Bible-based and we regard Holy Tradition as proper interpretation of Scripture. The Protestant concept of Sola Scriptura leads to multiple different interpretations from man-made interpretations of thousands of sects.

That said, if I were a Protestant and I advocate Sola Scriptura, I will interpret Bible in this way so that all of us must pray to Saint Mary the Mother of God! All Protestants must pray to St Mary as it is Biblical. Sadly, many Protestant Bibles such as RSV and NIV deliberately mistranslate this verse as “greet”, and so the NCC has mutilated the RSV text.

Well, I knew of no translation, up until now.
Notice, though that I did not quote a Protestant Bible, but instead I intentionally used 2 Catholic Bibles - Douay-Rheims, and the NAB. The NAB I got from the US Council of Catholic Bishops website, and it says “Greet Mary”. So, the term Greet Mary is not the result of sola scriptura or the NCC mutilating the verse.

" Pray to Mary the Virgin, Theotokos, who hath worked hard among you."
( Book of Romans, Chapter 16, Verse 6 )

This is from NEW RHEIMS VERSION (NRV) and the use of the word Theotokos is proof this verse does not speak of any Mary but specifically the Mother of God.

Who said it was about a different Mary? All I said was that my understanding was even the CC doesn’t require anyone to request intercession of the Blessed Virgin - a Catholioc must belief she can pray for us, but is not requitred to access her in this way. If you or someone can provide documentation one way or the other, that would be great, as I do not want to have the wrong impression.

Jon

 

[freedomwriter]

Why is it when I show scripure proving praying to the saints it is ignored. What we don’t want to hear it, refuse to hear it or what.

Let me show it again for the hundreth time.

Here is is everyone as George Strait says WRITE THIS DOWN!

Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb each holding a harp and with the golden bowls full of imcense which are the prayers of the Saints.

Get it, do you see it now. Why did the saints fall down before the Lamb, the Lamb guys the Lamb of GOd, Get it now. Now how can us asking the Blessed Mother and other Saints to pray for us replace God in ANY way. Do you not see that the prayers we ask for are said right at the foot of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

And sorry you better read Deut 18:10-11 14-15 God indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information, one is to look to Gods Prophets instead. But common sense knows there is a difference between holding a seance to the dead to speak to you, and asking Dad at the Grave to have Jesus pray for you. The difference is between night and day one is a occult practice and the other a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on ones behalf.

You better read Deut again, what about in Matt when Moses and Elijah appear with Christ and his apostles at the transfiguration.

Now are these prayers that were prayed to the “saints” or to Christ. This thread is talking about prayers to “saints” lol. Do you not see how serious it is too contact the dead for info or prayers. The last part of v.11 says or “one who calls up the dead” God forbids that. This verse is easy too read and understand. Why even pray to anyone else but Christ. Get it. Do you not see that it is an offense to pray to anyone else but Christ. You might want to read the scriptures that were provided a little bit more slowly. Then ask yourself what that verse means to you. If you need help let me know God Bless you rennie

 

[rinnie]

Now are these prayers that were prayed to the “saints” or to Christ. This thread is talking about prayers to “saints” lol. Do you not see how serious it is too contact the dead for info or prayers. The last part of v.11 says or “one who calls up the dead” God forbids that. This verse is easy too read and understand. Why even pray to anyone else but Christ. Get it. Do you not see that it is an offense to pray to anyone else but Christ. You might want to read the scriptures that were provided a little bit more slowly. Then ask yourself what that verse means to you. If you need help let me know God Bless you rennie

I don’t know any way of explaining it better than what I did. Do you not know what intercession is.

Intercession is when you pray and ask others to also pray for you. How could you possibly LOL at the prayers that the Saints do for us in intercession. I showed you the scripture.

You also have me confused on dead Saints. Do you not believe that when a person dies and is accepted into heaven they become perfect and become saints. How do you then explain Heb. 12:22-23. Having others pray for us is a good thing not something to be despised or set aside. Of course we pray directly to GOD WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND. Asking the Saints to pray for us is not praying to someone other than God. Can you explain to me how it is. Can you tell me the difference between asking someone to pray for you in this world or asking someone already in heaven to pray for you. Are these souls still not the same souls? Are these souls not alive in Christ. And are not the souls in heaven not only alive but do they not get to talk directly to Christ. Do you not believe that when a person leaves this world their soul rises and goes to the next? Do you not believe in eternal life? If you do, then how could you possibly reject the thought of our Brothers and Sisters already united with Christ not being able to pray for us?

 

[rinnie]

Now are these prayers that were prayed to the “saints” or to Christ. This thread is talking about prayers to “saints” lol. Do you not see how serious it is too contact the dead for info or prayers. The last part of v.11 says or “one who calls up the dead” God forbids that. This verse is easy too read and understand. Why even pray to anyone else but Christ. Get it. Do you not see that it is an offense to pray to anyone else but Christ. You might want to read the scriptures that were provided a little bit more slowly. Then ask yourself what that verse means to you. If you need help let me know God Bless you rennie

Freedomwriter please read the scripture. what does it say, When we pray and ask the Saints to pray for us, What are we asking freedomwriter. read it again, we are asking the saints to pray for us. Now if that is worthless and not something God likes why does Rev. 5:8 say that John sees the saints in heaven offering our Prayers to God. Who are the Saints praying to freedomwriter, who are we asking the saints to pray to for us freedomwriter. Please exercise some common sense here. If we believed that the Saints had power over God why would we ask them to pray for us. Why not just worship them? Please read the scripture, and please investigate what intercession is, and how it works, and why it works, before you pass judgement on others. Especially false judgement.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Now are these prayers that were prayed to the “saints” or to Christ. This thread is talking about prayers to “saints” lol.

Think of it this way. If you are in your church and listening to a beatiful hymn, and you turn to the person next to you and say “Praise Jesus brother!” and he says to you “Amen, brother. Amen!” Were you “praying” to Christ, or were you talking to the person next to you?

You were praying to your friend: because you certainly were not asking Jesus to praise himself, right? You were asking your friend to praise Jesus, and the two of you, together were engaged in an act of adoration of God. Think of prayer to a saint as virtually the same thing. I say to Mary (or Joseph, or whoever) "Praise Jesus, sister (or brother) and they say “Amen, brother” and add their praise to mine. But it’s all Christ-centered.

freedomwriter:

Do you not see how serious it is too contact the dead for info or prayers. The last part of v.11 says or “one who calls up the dead” God forbids that.

Asking a saint for intercession is not an attempt to summon a spirit. It is not divination or necromancy. Stop trying to compare apples to oranges.

freedomwriter:

Why even pray to anyone else but Christ. Get it.

Because His apostles tell us to offer prayers and supplications for one another. And because prayer amongst the members of the body of Christ edifies Christ and builds up His body in community and love.

freedomwriter:

Do you not see that it is an offense to pray to anyone else but Christ.

I see that it is an offense to worship any thing or any person other than God. It is not an offense to recognize that we are all members of Christ’s body and we all need each other as the members of the body are all one.

Peace,
Robert

 

[freedomwriter]

Freedomwriter please read the scripture. what does it say, When we pray and ask the Saints to pray for us, What are we asking freedomwriter. read it again, we are asking the saints to pray for us. Now if that is worthless and not something God likes why does Rev. 5:8 say that John sees the saints in heaven offering our Prayers to God. Who are the Saints praying to freedomwriter, who are we asking the saints to pray to for us freedomwriter. Please exercise some common sense here. If we believed that the Saints had power over God why would we ask them to pray for us. Why not just worship them? Please read the scripture, and please investigate what intercession is, and how it works, and why it works, before you pass judgement on others. Especially false judgement.

This is not false judgement. I ask you to read the context of the passage. The 24 elders represent the church, bowls of incense are peoples prayers raising to who? The Lamb. I haven’t seen the intercession that you are talking about. Must be a new translation. My bible says holding the prayers to who? The Lamb and who is the Lamb? Christ. Nowhere in the NKJ version does it say that these are prayers to saints who are interceding. Please read it again. Are you asking yourself what this verse means to you or are you just adding your own translation. Think of another verse to try and support your thought.

Philippians 4:6
Paul said “let your requests be made known to [who?] God”

 

[Selene]

This is not false judgement. I ask you to read the context of the passage. The 24 elders represent the church, bowls of incense are peoples prayers raising to who?

The 24 elders are the Holy Saints in Heaven who already stand in the presence of our Lord. Isn’t it wonderful that what they carry with them are our intecessory prayers to God. This verse is in alignment with Revelations 8:3-4. Even the angels offer our prayers to God.

Revlations 8:3-4 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. A large quantity of incense was given to him to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that stood in front of the throne, and so from the angel’s hand the smoke of the incense went up in the presece of God and with it the prayers of the saints.

Catholics pray not only to the saints but also to the angels. Both the angels and saints carry our prayers of intercession to God. God hears all prayers.

Peace be with you,
Selene

 

[fbl9]

This is not false judgement. I ask you to read the context of the passage. The 24 elders represent the church, bowls of incense are peoples prayers raising to who? The Lamb. I haven’t seen the intercession that you are talking about. Must be a new translation. My bible says holding the prayers to who? The Lamb and who is the Lamb? Christ. Nowhere in the NKJ version does it say that these are prayers to saints who are interceding. Please read it again. Are you asking yourself what this verse means to you or are you just adding your own translation. Think of another verse to try and support your thought.

Philippians 4:6
Paul said “let your requests be made known to [who?] God”

Who’s prayers are in the bowls? the prayers of the saints…to whom are they made it does not say in this passage nor does it say that these prayers are not prayers for others.So freedomwritter you are putting words there that aren’t there.
Perhaps you should take your own words and put them to pratice yourself.

 

[peary2]

Catholics pray the rosary and recite prayers to Virgin Mary. Also, Catholics pray to the saints. Another thing, catholics also use statues of the saints, Virgin Mary, and of Jesus. But dosent’ this contradict what the bible says? Instead of praying to Mary and the saints for help, why not just pray to God? And why have false idols?

You better get your definition of “false idols” accurate. A false idol is a nonChristian god; it is not someone who belongs to the Body of Christ or Communion of Saints in Heaven. Statues, icons, pictures of saints in a house of worship is the same thing as you would have if you have pictures of your loved ones displayed in your own house. Why do you have these? To remember them. Why do you think it is any different in a Catholic or orthodox church?

Mary is not a nonChristian god. In fact, she isn’t even a god. She is the MOTHER of Our Lord and Savior. One of the commandments in “Honor your mother and father.” As Jesus is Our Lord and Savior, Mary too is to be honored because She is our mother by ADOPTION, just as we are adopted. To honor her is to respect her, and to love her. As it says in Luke: “All generations shall call me blessed.” Very few protestants and nonCatholic/Orthodox would be caught dead calling Her ‘blessed.’

The saints are not nonChristian gods. They are members of the Body of Christ. They are the Communion of Saints who reside in Heaven. And show me specifically in the Bible where it states that our work for the Lord STOPS when he go to Heaven. You can’t. So you can’t presume or assume that it does. By the very fact that God permits the saints to intercede for us on earth reveals to us that God’s love even breaches the boundaries between heaven and earth. Otherwise, miracles could not occur.

The fact is, most Catholics pray to God but they do keep in mind the existence of the saints. Some have personal devotions to particular saints which is fine. But the saints, and even Mary, do not supplant Christ in any way, shape or form.

 

[rinnie]

This is not false judgement. I ask you to read the context of the passage. The 24 elders represent the church, bowls of incense are peoples prayers raising to who? The Lamb. I haven’t seen the intercession that you are talking about. Must be a new translation. My bible says holding the prayers to who? The Lamb and who is the Lamb? Christ. Nowhere in the NKJ version does it say that these are prayers to saints who are interceding. Please read it again. Are you asking yourself what this verse means to you or are you just adding your own translation. Think of another verse to try and support your thought.

Philippians 4:6
Paul said “let your requests be made known to [who?] God”/QU

Oh my. The 24 elders represent the twelve tribes of israel and the 12 Apostles. Are the apostles not Saints now in heaven. And is the Lamb not Jesus Christ. You know the Lamb that was killed for all of our sins. You mean to tell me you have never heard the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. That my friend is Jesus Christ. Who do you think it is?

 

[rinnie]

By the way Prayer raised to WHO? Who is the only person annyone raises prayers to? I would hope Jesus Christ Son of God. The only and only. Tell me who else would the saints raise their prayers to. Especially the Apostles who died for Christ for goodness sake.

 

[freedomwriter]

freedomwriter;5444040:

This is not false judgement. I ask you to read the context of the passage. The 24 elders represent the church, bowls of incense are peoples prayers raising to who? The Lamb. I haven’t seen the intercession that you are talking about. Must be a new translation. My bible says holding the prayers to who? The Lamb and who is the Lamb? Christ. Nowhere in the NKJ version does it say that these are prayers to saints who are interceding. Please read it again. Are you asking yourself what this verse means to you or are you just adding your own translation. Think of another verse to try and support your thought.

Philippians 4:6
Paul said “let your requests be made known to [who?] God”[/QU

Oh my. The 24 elders represent the twelve tribes of israel and the 12 Apostles. Are the apostles not Saints now in heaven. And is the Lamb not Jesus Christ. You know the Lamb that was killed for all of our sins. You mean to tell me you have never heard the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. That my friend is Jesus Christ. Who do you think it is?

lol your are funny. I know who the 24 are but where are they called saints in heaven. When Paul wrote his epistles was he writing them to those who are in heaven or those believers who are alive on earth. I wasn’t sure if you knew who was the Lamb of God. He is the one who we pray too. Yes we can intercede for each other but not those who are in the presence of God.

[/quote]

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;5447900:

lol your are funny. I know who the 24 are but where are they called saints in heaven. When Paul wrote his epistles was he writing them to those who are in heaven or those believers who are alive on earth. I wasn’t sure if you knew who was the Lamb of God. He is the one who we pray too. Yes we can intercede for each other but not those who are in the presence of God.

Yes there are saints in heaven and here is how we know. Because read 5,11,19,16, Then go to Ex 19, 16 then Ez 1, 4 13. The seven spirits of God the seven angels of the PRESENCE.

There is no time with God. Like the bible says a second to God is like a thousand years to us. God is everwhere, forever. God has no time frame the way we do.

 

[rinnie]

This is not false judgement. I ask you to read the context of the passage. The 24 elders represent the church, bowls of incense are peoples prayers raising to who? The Lamb. I haven’t seen the intercession that you are talking about. Must be a new translation. My bible says holding the prayers to who? The Lamb and who is the Lamb? Christ. Nowhere in the NKJ version does it say that these are prayers to saints who are interceding. Please read it again. Are you asking yourself what this verse means to you or are you just adding your own translation. Think of another verse to try and support your thought.

Philippians 4:6
Paul said “let your requests be made known to [who?] God”

I am sorry that you disagree but that is the teaching of the Church. These are angels taking the incense to the foot of Christ.

 

[rinnie]

Getting back to thread I must also say one thing. The intercession of Mary does indeed differ from that of the other saints. All the saints interede for us as fellow creatures happy for fulfill Gods will that in the communion of Saints we care and intercede for one another.

The difference is Marys intercession lies in its universality and its intensity. When God chose Mary as mother of Jesus and his associate in his redeeming work he called her to be the sprititual Mother of all the faithful. She was called to have a loving concern for all who are redeemed by Christ. Inspired by her close union with her son she embraces all of us in all of our needs. She cares with intense love for the entire fulfillment of his work of salvation. That is why she is said to be the Madiatrix of Graces.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

lol your are funny. I know who the 24 are but where are they called saints in heaven. When Paul wrote his epistles was he writing them to those who are in heaven or those believers who are alive on earth.

I thought you were addressing John’s Apocalypse?

freedomwriter:

I wasn’t sure if you knew who was the Lamb of God. He is the one who we pray too.

Do comments like this really move the discussion forward?

freedomwriter:

Yes we can intercede for each other but not those who are in the presence of God.

You have not shown this statement to be supported by Scripture. Indeed, Christ’s teaching on the Vine and the branches and the NT teaching on the Body of Christ - with each of us as dependent members - supports a contrary conclusion i.e. that those who are in Heaven certainly are connected to the rest of the Body spiritually and that their prayers (being the prayers of those who are righteous) are of great weight and assistance to the rest of the Body. But I understand that your tradition limits you from thinking within this framework - and takes a much more rigid and literalistic approach to what Scripture teaches. I think that what you do have is wonderful. Please do continue to worship only God (just as Catholics do). And maybe, eventually, you might also want to say “hi” to God’s friends as well.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Brother2]

The poll results don’t surprise or upset me. The true Church has always been maligned and hated by Protestants. Having been a Protestant for 30 years I can say with a little authority that many see the Catholic Church as “the beast” spoken of in the Revelation. They don’t understand what we believe, and haven’t studied deeply enough to see that the traditions established by the Church and the beliefs we hold dear are the most scripturally correct view that can be taken. Some have placed the Pope in their view as the prophet of the antichrist. I have listened to the diatribes; and there was a time I believed it myself. One truly has to read and study to be able to get past the venom in some belief systems.

Venom?..plenty of venom around in the Dark Ages when Protestants were burned at the stake eh…the Roman Catholic Church had the venom then…

I respect every Christian for what they believe including Roman Catholics…Protestants have every right to interpret Scripture in that way especially as the Roman Catholic Church acted as a beast in the Dark Ages, give them a chance and it could happen again if Church and State ever get together again…

The pope is a Christian leader just like the leader of the Baptists or the leader of any church…but he is not The leader of the Christian Church…our Lord Jesus Christ is the Leader of the Christian Church and the Rock on which the Christian Church is built…Scripture as interpreted by Rome is wrong there and as Protestants protesting against the errors in the Roman Catholic Church we have every right to believe that!

I can hear them getting the stake ready for me…

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.