Praying with non Catholics

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Here is how Vatican II stated the divine law:
Common participation in worship (communicatio in sacris) which harms the unity of the Church or involves formal acceptance of error or the danger of aberration in the faith, of scandal and indifferentism, is forbidden by divine law.
Clearly not all common prayer and worship does this. If a non-Catholic shows up at Mass and prays and worships along with the Catholics, there is technically a situation of common worship. But clearly no one thinks it hits any any of the above problems (giving the person the Sacrament might though) and was not forbidden in the past.

There have always been exceptions that have allowed communicatio in sacris when there is a greater good to be had and the dangers above are avoided. Mixed marriages are the quintessential example and have always been allowed, even if at times as an exception or requiring a dispensation. Furthermore, Catholics have been allowed to receive other sacraments administered by non-Catholics when necessary and the dangers are avoided.

Common prayer when seeking unity has also generally been allowed. Such prayers were offered up at the reunion Councils, while common participation in the Eucharist was not. Similarly, the Holy Office under Pius XII in 1949 did the same in its instruction regarding ecumenical meetings:
V—Although in all these meetings and conferences any communication whatsoever in worship must be avoided, yet the recitation in common of the Lord’s Prayer or of some prayer approved by the Catholic Church, is not forbidden for opening or closing the said meetings.
Clearly from this sentence alone we can glean there is a difference between forbidden common worship and permitted common worship (of which common prayer is a form).

As can be seen above, whether a particular example of common prayer and worship is of the kind that violates the divine law is a question of fact. No doubt, in the past a Catholic going to a non-Catholic church and joining in was seen as witnessing against the unity of the Church, which is why there was a blanket forbidding. None could dispense from this kind of thing.

However, as history shows, not all forms of common worship and prayer violate the divine law like that, and the Church has permitted some at times. Certainly, our pastors have judged the danger to be present a lot less these days. That’s a question of fact that can be debated (and I personally find much of it unwise).

(an aside on Pius XI’s Mortalium Animos–it is addressing a specific kind of assembly or society. See Mortalium Animos 7. It is addressing pan-Christian societies that state the unity of Christ’s Church has failed, that the Church now consists of various separated branches which are to be reconciled and united by compromise of their differences. They sought to establish a visible Communion based on the lowest common denominator or compromises in doctrine. Clearly a Catholic could not join such a group since the ends are evil. This is different than the kind permitted by Pius XII and Vatican II, where the Catholics are ostensibly working to seek true unity and common prayer is used for this purpose).
 
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Like I said, modernists can only point as far back as VII.

Traditional Catholicism embraces the entire deposit of the faith and rejects modernist novelty. Hence the reason it continues to grow.
Are you suggesting that Vatican II is a “modernist novelty”?

How do you feel about a canonized saint praying with the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury?

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"Are you suggesting that Vatican II is a “modernist novelty”?
Excellent. Then please provide references for your position that are not from abrogated documents. You act as if canons from the 1917 Code still are in force even though they are no longer part of canon law. And yes, “not being mentioned” does mean it’s no longer in effect.
 
Again, just because it is not stated in the new code, does not mean that it is no longer Catholic teaching.
Nor does it mean it is. You haven’t provided any authoritative current documentation for your position.
 
Yes, I have, I pointed to the entire body of Tradition before the Modernist novelties were introduced into the Church.
Which you stated occurred at Vatican II. That certainly makes it sound as if you’re rejecting a valid Council of the Church.

The point remains that the provision from the 1917 Code was removed from the 1983 Code. It’s no longer in effect any more than, say, women covering their heads in church.
 
Perhaps the question is the wording. NonCatholics can pray ecumenically with Catholics but it is to be a Catholic church approved, Catholic led service. Should Catholics pray with nonCatholics, or non Christian’s at their services- no.

In all charity to those in this thread who are fighting to defend Catholics praying with protestants and other religions, would you be as supportive if the question was, can Catholics pray with SSPX Catholics? Based on previous threads, I suspect the answer would be no, stay far far away from them.

I would take all this support for praying with non Catholics seriously if there was just as much support for praying with all Catholics first.

For some reason we are always more charitable to those outside of our family.

I’m praying all this isn’t a true example of the state of our Church
 
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Again I never said that.
In good faith, @Ryan22, I am puzzled by your position.

I quoted from Unitatis Redintegratio - the conciliar (Vatican II) decree on ecumenism promulgated by Pope Paul VI - and you answered by saying “yes, which goes against the entire Tradition of the Church”, and stating things like this :
But this is the problem modernists think have no problem with insulting the constant Tradition of the Church in order to promote their novelty.
How is that not considering a conciliar document promulgated by a pope a “modernist novelty” ?

I hope I’m not coming across as aggressive, I’m simply trying to understand you. To me, saying what you are saying about official Church teaching is not easily reconciled with acknowledging the authoritative role of the Magisterium in Catholic tradition. I don’t see how one can get around it, except by saying that one does not recognize as Church teaching that particular Council promulgated that particular Pope - but that’s not how it works, according to Canon Law:
The College of Bishops also possesses infallibility in its teaching when the Bishops, gathered together in an Ecumenical Council and exercising their magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals, definitively declare for the universal Church a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals
(Canon 749,2)
 
Canon Law is not a reference for Catholic teaching, but rather for regulations.
Indeed. And yet you chose to cite the 1917 Code to support your position. So, naturally, we are pointing out that your reference is no longer valid.
 
Perhaps the question is the wording. NonCatholics can pray ecumenically with Catholics but it is to be a Catholic church approved, Catholic led service
But that again will cause problems with things like St. John Paul praying with the Archbishop of Canterbury in an Anglican cathedral, and renewing his baptismal promises there, alongside the archbishop and a Methodist minister.

I’m uncomfortable with the idea that St. John Paul was engaging in what Ryan22 keeps referring to as “apostasy.”
 
The Principle is valid for all times. If old code where my main or only reference, point granted. But I have the entire body of Tradition that agrees with that point, to go against it is contrary to the faith.
You keep saying that. But have yet to produce a current ( which, after all, is part of “all times”) reference to support that understanding. Meanwhile, others have produced teaching from Vatican II, current Canon Law, and examples of several popes (including at least one saint) praying with non-Catholics.
 
You try to act like I reject the New Code.
You may have noticed that here on CAF, people are often asked to cite appropriate documentation. That’s hardly an accusation of rejecting said document.
I am a Sedevacantist. etc.
Please point out the post number where I said, hinted at, or even implied such a thing.
 
it is to be a Catholic church approved, Catholic led service
I’m not sure about the Catholic-led bit – at least, that’s not always how it happens in practice.

I am (still) a Reformed pastor (even tough I’m on my slow and long-winded way out of here and into the Church), and I participate in organizing such events. The way “official” ecumenical services work is that a pre-agreed liturgy, elaborated by an international ecumenical committee, is sent to participating churches, who then split the roles between ministers. It is not always the Catholic priest who is the presiding minister, as, in order to avoid “diplomatic incidents” which would be counterproductive, ministers take turns presiding (and preaching; the minister who presides is generally not the one who gives the homily).
would you be as supportive if the question was, can Catholics pray with SSPX Catholics?
I actually have a very nice memory from my student days, when I and a bunch of other Protestant students ended up praying the Rosary in the seminary chapel at Econe, with the rector and seminarians (long story).
 
Please point out the post number where I said, hinted at, or even implied such a thing.
I think I’m the culprit on that one, @Ryan22 – but I was not accusing you of being a sedevacantist, I was merely saying that I couldn’t make sense of your position unless you were one. It seems you are not, and I am still puzzled.

Please accept my sincere apologies if I offended you. It wasn’t my intention.
 
As regards Vatican II it was not a dogmatic council nor did it make use of dogmatically binding authority.
Fair enough.

But it didn’t prevent the same pope Paul VI, in the apostolic brief In Spirit Sancto, from stating:
We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquillity and peace of all men.
 
I’m not sure about the Catholic-led bit – at least, that’s not always how it happens in practice.
I realize that is not how they happen but that is how they should happen. I used to attend ecumenical services when I was a young Catholic. They led me right out the door of the Church to a state of confusion. That is why it should be Catholic led or Catholic arranged only.
I actually have a very nice memory from my student days, when I and a bunch of other Protestant students ended up praying the Rosary in the seminary chapel at Econe, with the rector and seminarians (long story).
That is nice, a rare happening though.
But that again will cause problems with things like St. John Paul praying with the Archbishop of Canterbury in an Anglican cathedral, and renewing his baptismal promises there, alongside the archbishop and a Methodist minister.

I’m uncomfortable with the idea that St. John Paul was engaging in what Ryan22 keeps referring to as “apostasy.”
Yes it is an uncomfortable thought. Pope St. John Paul II is one of my favorite popes though not perfect. Those ecumenical happenings have caused a lot of confusion among many Catholics and have led many right out the door and did not bring others in as they had hoped.
But it didn’t prevent the same pope Paul VI, in the apostolic brief In Spirit Sancto , from stating:
We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquillity and peace of all men.
Whenever popes speak on faith and morals we are to take it respectfully, seriously and with great regard but not everything a pope says is dogmatic or doctrinal or infallible. When a pope speak ex Cathedra or dogmatically or doctrinally on faith and morals then it is to be obeyed because then it is infallible . Vatican II did not pronounce any new doctrines or dogma, nor was anything expressed ex-Cathedra.
 
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Those ecumenical happenings have caused a lot of confusion among many Catholics and have led many right out the door and did not bring others in as they had hoped.
Well, if anything, I’m one of these others brought in. I certainly wouldn’t be where I’m now were it not for the ecumenical movement, ecumenical prayers, and my involvement in them.
 
I heard a short discussion by a priest saying that we as Catholics can not pray with non Catholics. Apparently this is a church teaching (which I have never heard of). Now I understand not praying with other religions (i.e. muslims, hindu, etc.), but would this mean we can’t pray with other Christians? Has anyone else ever heard of this?
I pray once a week with a mixed group of guy friends. We are a mixture of evangelical and Catholic.
 
I will simply say.
  1. The ordinary magisterium can err. This is a clear teaching of the Church. This doesn’t mean we do not love and respect it. But that we acknowledge that at times it can err. And this is one such instance.
So, what we have is:
Canon Law is irrelevant
A valid Church council can apparently be dismissed
The ordinary magisterium can err

In other words, the only defined tradition that is legitimate is what you have decided is legitimate, not what the actual Church has decided.

This is becoming much clearer.
 
Yes, this is a question of the ordinary Magisterium.
Of universal ordinary Magisterium, which includes, if memory serves, the corporate Body of Bishops.

And in the words of John Paul II,
This magisterium is not above the divine word but serves it with a specific carisma veritatis certum, which includes the charism of infallibility, present not only in the solemn definitions of the Roman Pontiff and of Ecumenical Councils, but also in the universal ordinary magisterium, which can truly be considered as the usual expression of the Church’s infallibility.
(To the Bishops from the United States of America on their “Ad Limina” visit, Thursday, 15 October 1988)

I guess we could exchange quotes back and forth for a while. I think it is clear we disagree here, and I’m not sure I’m correctly grasping why you say what you say. It’s probably me being dense, I’m tired 😅
Just read what St. Vincent of Lerins says about Tradition. It is clear - The deposit of the faith is that which was always clearly set forth by the Church in the past.
I’m familiar with the Vincentian rules, and if you’re alluding to the first one, he qualifies it a bit more than that : we are to believe “what has been believed always, everywhere and by all” (not sure of how it was translated into English, but that should be the gist of it). As saint John Henry Newman pointed out, the continuous presence of these three criteria is not that easy to ascertain, even for fundamental dogmas like the Trinity.
 
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