Predestination and Free Will

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Predestination and foreknowledge are two different concepts. In the former, God makes things happen. In the latter, He know what will happen.
One way to look at it:
Since God foreknows all the choices we will make (whether we will freely choose good and end up in heaven or whether we will choose to reject good and end up in hell) His decision to create us could be considered “predestining” us. The foreknowledge is distinct from the predestination, but it is what makes His decision to create us, a “predestination”. Notice it in no way interferes with our free will.

Foreknowledge without creation = no predestination
Foreknowledge with creation = predestination
Nita
 
One way to look at it:
Since God foreknows all the choices we will make (whether we will freely choose good and end up in heaven or whether we will choose to reject good and end up in hell) His decision to create us could be considered “predestining” us. The foreknowledge is distinct from the predestination, but it is what makes His decision to create us, a “predestination”. Notice it in no way interferes with our free will.

Foreknowledge without creation = no predestination
Foreknowledge with creation = predestination
Nita
But with this argument, God knows some will choose hell, God creates them, therefore He predestines them to hell. This I think is against Catholic doctrine.

What am I missing? :confused:
 
But with this argument, God knows some will choose hell, God creates them, therefore He predestines them to hell. This I think is against Catholic doctrine.

What am I missing? :confused:
You’re not missing anything. He does predestine them to hell, but not in the sense of sending them there when they did nothing to deserve it and not in the sense that He forced them to choose evil.

Many, I think, in their understanding of predestination see it as God sending someone to heaven or hell regardless of what they freely choose to do. I think this is the Calvinist position, isn’t it? Others may think God predestines someone to hell by not offering sufficient graces for them to ever be able to reject evil or to choose good. This also would be contrary to Catholic teaching.

Why God chooses to still create someone whom He knows will choose to reject Him is a mystery. But we know He does it - with angels as well as with man. God even lets us in on a little of His foreknowledge through His prophetic revelations in Scripture (eg. Judas’ betrayal foretold).

Does this help?
 
Matt 6:33 , Matt 7;7 Acts 17:26-26
**
These citations fail to support your argument that man has free-will to seek God. Let me explain; The word ‘seek’ is also the common word ‘ask’ in the bible.

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

aiteo “to ask,” . . . Aiteo more frequently suggests the attitude of a suppliant, the petition of one who is lesser in position than he to whom the petition is made; e.g., in the case of men in asking something from God, Matt_7:7; a child from a parent, Matt_7:9,10; a subject from a king, Acts_12:20; priests and people from Pilate, Luke_23:23 (RV, “asking” for AV, “requiring”); a beggar from a passer by, Acts_3:2. With reference to petitioning God, this verb is found in Paul’s epistles in Eph_3:20; Col_1:9; in James four times, James_1:5,6; James_4:2,3; in 1 John, five times, 1_John_3:22; 1_John_5:14,15 (twice)
Code:
zeteo "to seek, seek after," also signifies "to require, demand," "shall be required," Matt-6:36, Luke_12:48; 1_Cor_4:2, "it is required (in stewards)."
What is the context of Matt 6:33 as to what is required of the Believer? It is required of the Believer to strive for the Kingdom and then, food, drink, and clothing will be provided.

Matt 6:31 "Do not worry then, saying, What will we eat?' or What will we drink?’ or `What will we wear for clothing?’ 32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Matt 6:33 is a popular verse of the charismatics who think if they ask for it, they can get money and material possessions.

Acts 17:
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

The word determined is the greek word horizo.
It is very similar to predestination → pro’orizo
seek → zeteo - required

Thus, the context of Acts 17:27 is conditional only to the predestinated elect. Not to the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.**

itsjustdave1988 Using your teenager as an example. Let’s assume he is 14 years old. If he came to you and said, ‘Dad, may I drive the car to school today?’. Does he get the keys to the car because his free-will led him to ask? No. His receiving the keys to the car is conditional. The condition being that he has a valid drivers license. Let me take this one step further. What if the the teenager down the street, who is 17, knocks on your door ‘seeking’ your car keys to drive to school. Does he get what he asked for? No, because he is not pre-bound to the rules of your household.
 
itsjustdave1988
Thus, even the non-elect are made to SERVE God, but they have been given freewill, such that as Josh 24:15 states, they can “Choose this day whom you will serve…” I
**Joshua is not addressing the non-elect The next verse says so . . .

16 The people answered and said, "Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, F284 and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. **
 
God’s indictment of man is that none is good, and none seeks God (Rom 3:10ff); how then do you reckon that God could foresee anyone choosing Him?
The Catholic Church teaches that you are taking this out of context. God does grace people and make them good.
Jesus says that no one has the ability to choose Him, but must be drawn, helkūō, literally, “dragged,” by the Father to Him; how then do you reckon that anyone not “dragged” by the Father would be able to do anything other than “choose against Him?”
Well, think about human slavery. When the Europeans went into Africa and kidnapped people, loaded them on ships, and “dragged” them to America in chains, sold them into bondage, and forced them into labor, were the victims exercising free will? Remember that old saying about how you can lead a horse to water?
That is a strawman; when one is dragged, and regenerated by God, he then will freely choose; he does so, because it is God’s will that he do so.
God created us to be in loving relationship with Him, and pursues us each as the hound of heaven, desiring all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. But that love will never be returned to Him if He then nullifies the free will that He gave to mankind. Not everyone freely chooses God, as you well know, but that does not remove anything from His persistant desire that all should do so. Your the reformed notion of predesination theology tramples the creation of free will in man.
Another strawman; it is OK for God to violate or impinge upon man’s free-will, because God does what He pleases (Ps 115:3). Read the case of Abimelech in Gen 20; God certainly impinged upon Abimelech’s will; Read of the case of the rulers of the earth in Ps 75:6-8; Read of the case of the host of heaven, and the inhabitants of the earth in Dan 4:35; and what of Paul’s will to remain a Jew, and continue persecuting the Church in Acts 9?
Indeed, it does seem that there are some individuals who are predestined in this manner. It is a mystery to me how that works, but I do recognize that there are some people that seem to be chosen before they are born, and even in the face of their own willfulness. Paul is not a good example of this, though,because Paul chose to repent, God did not “force” him into obedience.
The human will is not neutral, but apart from God is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34); the human condition is never one of neutrality, but one of fulfilling its own selfish desire.

In Rom 9:22, the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction are in the accusative, and the verb is a passive; IOW, they are the passive, direct object of the preparation for destruction.
It is improper to apply this teaching to humanity as a whole. Jesus said about Judas, also, that it would have been better for him if he had never been born. But this is a particular situation with a particular person, and should not be applied universally.
Romans 8:29

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;Scripture teaches predestination initiated by foreknowledge.
Scripture does teach this, but that is not the ONLY think that it teaches. It is essential to take the scriptures together as a whole, and not excise parts out of them.
 
God incorporates free will in his plan of salvation (predestination). The precise relationship between the due has been the subject of much debate and is unclear.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Truthstalker,

The CCC has very little on predestination.
Para. #600 says: To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore He establishes His eternal plan of “predestination,” He includes in it each person’s free response to His grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” (Acts 4:27-28; cf Ps 2:1-2) For the sake of accomplishing His plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

Do you have “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ludwig Ott? It would be worth your while to get it if you don’t. If you do, check out pp 243-245 which goes into “The Mystery of Predestination” and “The Mystery of Reprobation”. One quote from the Reprobation portion:

*b) According to the teaching of the Church, there is a conditioned positive reprobation, that is, it occurs with consideration of foreseen future demerits (…).

The conditional nature of Positive Reprobation is demanded by the generality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. This excludes God’s desiring in advance the damnation of certain men (cf. 1 Tim 2:4; Ez 33:11; 2 Peter 3:9).

St. Augustine teaches: “God is good, God is just. He can save a person without good works, because He is good; but He cannot dondemn anyone without evil works, because He is just.” (Contra Jul. III 18,35).*

Nita
 
**These citations fail to support your argument that man has free-will to seek God. **
Unless you consider yourself the infallible norm for determining the sense of these Scripture passages, your opinion remains just another person’s contrary view of Scripture. This only serves to prove that the Protestant epistemology of sola scriptura remains insufficient as a final authority on the matter.

I think perhaps you keep forgetting that you are in a Catholic forum, where Catholics reject the erroneous Protestant “Bible alone” epistemology, an epistemology which has itself never been proved from Scripture alone (ironically).

Whether you agree with Catholicism or not, you should at least understand that you will fail to be very persuasive among Catholics by simply asserting your personal interpretation of Scripture. Written language is inherently ambiguous, and as such can be understood in many different ways (as Protestantism’s various divisions prove time and again).

Instead, if you desire to be persuasive among Catholics (which I hope is your intent, otherwise why are you here?), you ought to attempt to form your arguments based upon Catholic epistemology, which understands that the Church is the “pillar and bulwark of truth” (1 Tim 3:15) and the final arbiter Christians are bound to listen to in resolving disputes among brethren (cf. Matt 18:15ff), especially regarding the authentic sense of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.

To do otherwise will only result in the same thing that always results in many Protestant theology forums…lots of words which basically amounts to “I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture.” Protestants seem to start with the (false) premise that Scripture is perspicuous, and so are astonished when someone interprets a passage differently then they do.

I spent years in Protestant theology discussions, and they never seem to resolve doctrinal differences, because they don’t consider it necessary to listen to the “pillar and bulwark of truth” (1 Tim 3:15). After such extensive Biblical debates, they still disagree regarding what they deem essential doctrines of Christianity, because every person’s personal interpretation of Scripture is the only norm for them in determining Christian doctrine.

So the Arminians say Scripture teaches their essential doctrine, and the Calvinist say otherwise, the Lutherans disagree with them, the Baptists and Mennonites say something different, the Christadelphians, through Scripture alone assert that Jesus is not Divine, and the Universalists through Scripture alone, determine that the wicked, demons, and Satan will enter heaven after their punishment in the lake of fire which lasts “forever and ever” is over with. These are not merely theological differences, which will always exist, but are disputes about what they consider essential Christian doctrine.

Surely there is a Scriptural means of resolving such disputes? Ah…but there is, and it was exercised in the Book of Acts, ch. 15, where the apostles and *presbyters *of the Church gathered together in council to consider the matter. After there “had been much disputing”, Peter rose and prefaced his decision by affirming, “God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe…”, then after stating what “we believe” on the matter, “the assembly kept silence” (Acts 15:12). Then the presbyters drafted and delivered the dogmata (Acts 16:4) for the Churches to keep (to observe, protect).

So, Catholics use a very first-century epistemological principles of what we are to “keep” (observe, protect) regarding Christian doctrine, and that view is not simply our own personal interpretation of Scripture, but includes observing that which the Church calls ***dogmata. ***From a Catholic point of view, we don’t unendingly renew past Scriptural disputes which have been settled authoritatively by the Church, which has presented dogmata for us to continue to keep (to observe, protect). Like the first century Christians, dogmata present what is authentically Christian. We accept this dogmata from the Church as the first century Christians did, as a consolation (paraklesis) in which we rejoice (cf. Acts 15:31).

You can perhaps see then that when someone continues to argue against Church dogmata, it is not very persuasive.
 
…** Acts 17:27 is conditional only to the predestinated elect. Not to the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.**
😃 Not even close. Acts 17 is referring to those who are descendents of Adam. It states, "***standing in the middle of the Are-op’agus, [Paul] said: “Men of Athens…I proclaim this to you” ***(Acts 17:22-23). He speaks to those pagans who worshipped the “unknown god” (Acts 17:23). He says to them, God “made from ONE [ie. Adam] every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth… ***that they should seek (Gk zeteo) *God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him.” (Acts 17:26-27).

All the descendants of Adam “should seek God,” whether they are among the elect or not (which only God could know.)

Nonetheless, see my above post. Unless you attempt to presuade Catholics from a Catholic epistemology, your assertions will be seen to be, in the final analsysis, no more than “I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture,” which has never been very persuasive.
 
itsjustdave1988 Using your teenager as an example. Let’s assume he is 14 years old. If he came to you and said, ‘Dad, may I drive the car to school today?’. Does he get the keys to the car because his free-will led him to ask? No.
The point was that all of my descendents, my teenagers are subject to me, the Father, whether they seek to do my will or not. It is my desire that all my teenagers freely seek to do my will. However, it is my will that they have freedom to do so principally out of love for me, but at least because of fear of just punishment. Thus, my teenager does indeed have the free will to disobey me, in other words, steal the keys of my car contrary to my will. If he does so, I have predestined that he will suffer the consequences of such disobedience.

Yet, he also has the freewill to obey me. I desire the latter, but know full well he may choose the former. All of my descendants have free will, just as all the descendents of Adam have free will. All of my descendants should seek to do my will, just as all the descendents of Adam should seek to do God’s will. Yet, I have predestined that if my descendants should use their freewill in defiance of my will, they will receive a just punishment. I have also predestined that should my descendents use their freewill correctly, in accord with my will, I may decide to reward them (yet, I am not obliged to).

Likewise, God has predestined that if the descendants of Adam shall use their freewill correctly, in accord with His will, God may decide to reward them (yet, God is not obliged to). If the descendants of Adam instead use their freewill contrary to God’s will, they will place a barrier to grace, a barrier to a life of holiness, and as such they will suffer punishment. If they remain finally impenitent in their defiance of God’s will, God has predestined that they will be punished eternally.

Thus, predestination and freewill can and do coexist.
 
I’m still curious as to why you think that predestination and free will cannot coexist.
I believe that Predestination is a mystery. Prestination and free will coexixt the same way one God can exist as three persons. Defies our limited logic, but true nonetheless.

God Bless,
Michael
 
itsjustdave1988 . . . stop right there . . . with your very first sentence . . .
The point was that all of my descendents, my teenagers are subject to me, the Father, whether they seek to do my will or not.
**Their subjugation to you the Father is not a matter of choice. That’s predestination! They are pre-bound to you the Father to do something. That something is to conform to the rules you set for the household.

Can we agree on this one point?
**
 
Is there a problem with saying that preveneinet grace is needed in order for our wills to turn to God. In other words, our wills, unenlightened by grace, cannot chose God.

Secondly, God can incorporate free will in the salvation of His elect.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Their subjugation to you the Father is not a matter of choice…

LOL! You must not have teenagers. 😃

I don’t think we can agree on that point. I give my commandments to my children, but go figure…sometimes they freely choose to disobey.

Now, I could pinch his ear really hard until he tells me he loves me, but I don’t think that would solicit an authentic response. 😉
 
If we do not have free will, why do we sin even after being justified and receiving the Holy Spirit? If God’s grace is irresistible, then why can’t we perfectly conform our lives to His will and cease from sinning?

2 Corinthians 6:1

**1As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. **

If God’s grace is irresistable, how can it be received in vain?

God Bless,
Michael
 
How can these coexist?

How can light be​

  • a particle
  • a wave ?
  • yet it is both. Maybe predestination & free will are related in a similar way.
Predestination does not necessitate, BTW. It acts supra-temporally - unlike free-will; at any rate, it seems they are both really operative, but not in the same way. Maybe one is a condition for the other, & nececessary for the exercise of free will. Maybe they are like space & time - we live in space & time, yet how many of us can say how they are related (if indeed they are not the same thing in different modes) ?

Predestination doesn’t stand by itself - it cannot be separated from its causes, or its consequences; it goes with other things, so it can be separate from them only in our minds, but not in reality; otherwise, it becomes unreal & meaningless.
 
A question:

If predestination is true, then why bother preaching the Gospel? After all, those God has determined to be saved will be saved regardless of whether or not they hear the Gospel. As for those predestined to Hell, they are going to burn how much you preach to them.
 
A question:

If predestination is true, then why bother preaching the Gospel? After all, those God has determined to be saved will be saved regardless of whether or not they hear the Gospel. As for those predestined to Hell, they are going to burn how much you preach to them.
No, nobody is saved without accepting Grace, and that comes usually through the Gospel. God simply knows beforehand who receives the Gospel, who accepts Grace, and therefore who is Saved.

Again, you must juggle time and Eternity at the same time in order to properly grasp this. Eternity is all moments at once, future and past, and time is the progression of moments experienced by creatures. What is true in any given moment, future or past, is known to God immediately in Eternity 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
A question:
If predestination is true, then why bother preaching the Gospel?
Because the predestinated elect are called to do something . … conform to the image of Christ. That takes a lifetime.
As for those predestined to Hell, they are going to burn how much you preach to them.
**
The vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction . . . not predestinated for it.

Romans 9:20-23 – Who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed It, why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter the power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour-- What if God willing to show his wrath, and make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath afore prepared unto glory.
* fitted - Greek: katartizo- to complete thoroughly; fit; frame; arrange; prepare**
 
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