Predestination and Free Will

[tabcom]

Maybe predestination & free will are related in a similar way.

**
God put a boundary around Adam and Eve (predestination). He said, from every tree in the garden they may eat (free-will).

Gen 2:16

The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;

For the record: ‘freely’ is not in the original text.
**

 

[Catholic_Dude]

God put a boundary around Adam and Eve (predestination). He said, from every tree in the garden they may eat (free-will).

Gen 2:16

The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;

For the record: ‘freely’ is not in the original text.

Im not sure if “freely” is in the original text, but the concept is clearly there so your assertion is bogus (ie verse 17 “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”). To remove the concept of free will with Adam makes you guilty of the damnable heresy of Calvinists where God predestined Adam to sin (and is the underlying author of all sins).

 

[Catholic_Dude]

No, nobody is saved without accepting Grace, and that comes usually through the Gospel. God simply knows beforehand who receives the Gospel, who accepts Grace, and therefore who is Saved.

Again, you must juggle time and Eternity at the same time in order to properly grasp this. Eternity is all moments at once, future and past, and time is the progression of moments experienced by creatures. What is true in any given moment, future or past, is known to God immediately in Eternity

Peace and God bless!

Let me give it a try
:juggle:

 

[NewGuyInChurch]

God lives OUTSIDE of the human perception of time. Everything that we see as happening in a linear, past present future kind of way is all one instant to God. It’s not about knowing the future for God, because God transcends time.

 

[RNRobert]

Why is it that those who believe in predestination are so sure they’re predestined to heaven? I can’t recall hearing anyone claim they were predestined to hell…

 

[spauline]

Why is it that those who believe in predestination are so sure they’re predestined to heaven? I can’t recall hearing anyone claim they were predestined to hell…

Yes, because, of course, the Calvinist says, I “know” I’m going to heaven. But why God didn’t choose you, I don’t know. Who am I to question God’s desires? But at least *“I’m” going to heaven. And you’re going to hell? Oh well, too bad. Well, I’m busy now, so I have to get back to my Calvinist Bible Study. God Loves you! *

 

[AndyF]

Tabcom,

… While I get that you disagree with Catholic doctrine, lest you think yourself infallible, your opinion does not have much edifying value in describing Catholic teaching on the matter.

If it is your intent to re-engage in a debate about the truth of Catholicism with regard to this topic, perhaps we can take up that discussion again here I believe predestination means . . . , so that we don’t simply regurgitate on this thread that which had already been discussed elsewhere.

I’m sure if our OP is interested in your contra-Catholic thesis on predestination and free-will, he can also read the debate linked to above which, in my opinion, shows how some of your expressed views are untenable, taking Scripture passage out of their proper context.

Ad Hominum.

The poster is using sound reasoning in a spirit of Sentia Pia and is conforming with the Church’s rule of Opinio Tolerata. Neither states the view must initially be positive in favor of the Church’s stance.

In fact I admire his oganized and collected objective approach to the topic presented. Unless I’m mistaken, I see nowhere in the forum rules where it states all posts require an “edifying value” of conformity.

Lastly, it is you who is uncomfortable with the post. Perhaps you should simply leave the debate environ where you can breathe easier and absorb the earth shattering information that has been presented so far, meanwhile the rest of us will continue this constructive discussion as usual.

AndyF

 

[Jennifer_G]

A question:

If predestination is true, then why bother preaching the Gospel? After all, those God has determined to be saved will be saved regardless of whether or not they hear the Gospel. As for those predestined to Hell, they are going to burn how much you preach to them.

Then you’re predestined to not preach the Gospel.

Actually, I look at it like this (probably a bad analogy…) -

It’s like a movie, or a tape (or those old film reels that you can see pictures on). When we look at it, we can see the whole thing at once, from beginning to end. If our eyes were good enough, we could see each individual scene. We know that the hero is going to save the damsel in distress and that the bad guy’s gonna by falling into a crocidile infested lagoon. As far as the actors are concerned on the tape, they travel through a linear progression. Ok, so they follow a script, but the point is, the script could be anything they want, and we see the entire thing from beginning to end.

Likewise, God already knows what’s going to happen (i.e., think of when we say “…as it was then, is now, and ever shall be…”). Yes, we have free will, but we only exist on a 1-dimensional plane of time. That is, quite like a time line, but where we’re only conscious of “right now”. Sure we have free will to decide if we want to take the car for a ride in the park, or do something stupid like stick our hand in boiling water. God knows what’s going to happen, and what the effects are (Think of maybe, a 2nd or 3rd dimension of time where you’re not limited to “now”, but you can view an entire section like a movie, or different versions of that same move – alternate endings, for example being like a 3rd dimension of time).

I think I’ve been listening to Dr. Michio Kaku on the Discovery Channel too much.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

A lot of people have questions about this subject, and there have been a lot of errors in this area.

I’ll explain it the way I understand predistination and free will, which, at least for me, makes perfect sense and leaves no questions.

Firstly, we know that “God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth”. The Church also teaches that God gives all men sufficient grace to be saved.

What determines who will and who will not be saved, is the cooperation between the will of man and the grace of God. God wills that all be saved, and gives sufficient grace to all men, but most, for whatever reason, do not properly correspond to that grace, and as such are lost.

God, who knows all things, knows who will and who will not be saved. If he did not know this, he would not be all-knowing. He created all men for heaven, and wills for all to be saved; but most resist the grace of God and are therefore lost.

Those who God, in His infinite wisdom, knows will be saved, are the predestined. Those who will be lost are the reprobate.

Predestination is based on the foreknowledge of God. He knows in advance who will be saved, and these are the predestined - “Those who he foreknew, he also predestinated…” (Romans 8:29

I don’t know if I explained that clearly, but it makes perfect sense. Predestination must exist since God is all knowing. Predestination does not mean that God determines who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. It simply means that God knows who will correspond to His grace and be saved. It is a simple as that.

 

[RNRobert]

Then you’re predestined to not preach the Gospel.

Actually, I look at it like this (probably a bad analogy…) -

It’s like a movie, or a tape (or those old film reels that you can see pictures on). When we look at it, we can see the whole thing at once, from beginning to end. If our eyes were good enough, we could see each individual scene. We know that the hero is going to save the damsel in distress and that the bad guy’s gonna by falling into a crocidile infested lagoon. As far as the actors are concerned on the tape, they travel through a linear progression. Ok, so they follow a script, but the point is, the script could be anything they want, and we see the entire thing from beginning to end.

Likewise, God already knows what’s going to happen (i.e., think of when we say “…as it was then, is now, and ever shall be…”). Yes, we have free will, but we only exist on a 1-dimensional plane of time. That is, quite like a time line, but where we’re only conscious of “right now”. Sure we have free will to decide if we want to take the car for a ride in the park, or do something stupid like stick our hand in boiling water. God knows what’s going to happen, and what the effects are (Think of maybe, a 2nd or 3rd dimension of time where you’re not limited to “now”, but you can view an entire section like a movie, or different versions of that same move – alternate endings, for example being like a 3rd dimension of time).

I think I’ve been listening to Dr. Michio Kaku on the Discovery Channel too much.

There was a forum member either here or on another post (probably a Calvinist) who said that God “drags” us to him. That is we have no choice about being saved. My point is, if we really have no choice in the matter, then what difference does it make whether or not somebody hears the gospel?

 

[AndyF]

A lot of people have questions about this subject, and there have been a lot of errors resulting a lack of understanding.

Pax:

Thanks for the post.

I’ve withheld my view on predestination as I feel it’s negative, Reprobation, is a much more serious and important a topic of discussion. I will jump in when/if that comes up for discussion: However a very good explaination of both can be found at:

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

AndyF

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Why is it that those who believe in predestination are so sure they’re predestined to heaven? I can’t recall hearing anyone claim they were predestined to hell…

Thats a fundamental error in those Protestants denominations who put such a disproportionate emphasis on Predestination. When I first heard of Calvinism a few years ago this was one of the first questions that I came up with: how does one know if they are elect? Its a fair and honest question. The fact is, and this is something the Calvinist I talked with couldnt handle, is that you cant know for sure, and thus the so called “assurance” is founded on sand, worse yet its the sin of presumption.

I came up with the ultimate question that destroys their so called “assurance” by asking them:
Is everyone who thinks they are going to Heaven really going to Heaven?

They have two options here, if they say ‘yes’ then that contradicts the passages of Scripture where people who thought they were worthy are found to be unworthy due to sin…however if they say ‘no’ (which they have to) then their own “infallible assurance” is destroyed because though they “thought” they were going to Heaven doesnt mean they are!
Its very amusing watching them twist and turn to try to get out of this bind.

The best way to deal with Protestants is to use their own logic against them, I call their theology “trap door theology”, they start off tossing out all these “facts” and “evidence” against Catholic theology, yet when you apply their own logic to their system they dont know what to say and instead they slip away through a trap door (ie they run off).

 

[RNRobert]

The fact is, and this is something the Calvinist I talked with couldnt handle, is that you cant know for sure, and thus the so called “assurance” is founded on sand, worse yet its the sin of presumption.

That, or it could lead to the sin of despair. If someone is struggling with sin, or is experiencing dryness in their spiritual life, they might think, “well, perhaps I’m doomed to hell.”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

That, or it could lead to the sin of despair. If someone is struggling with sin, or is experiencing dryness in their spiritual life, they might think, “well, perhaps I’m doomed to hell.”

wow, that is a very good point, I didnt even consider that…I guess I said that because I never met a Calvinist who wasnt sure he was guaranteed Heaven, not realizing there must be some people who think they have no hope

 

[Ghosty]

That, or it could lead to the sin of despair. If someone is struggling with sin, or is experiencing dryness in their spiritual life, they might think, “well, perhaps I’m doomed to hell.”

There are some famous cases of this happening. Look up the famous (and tragic) British writer William Cowper.

Peace and God bless!

 

[tabcom]

Im not sure if “freely” is in the original text,

**Original Hebrew text to Gen 2:
pdftohtml.markoer.org/pdf2html.php?url=http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen2.pdf

To remove the concept of free will [with Adam makes you guilty of the damnable heresy of Calvinists

**I was the OP on another predestination thread about a year ago. I’m on record there as to why I am not a Calvinist.
**
[/QUOTE]
**

 

[tabcom]

but the concept (of free-will) is clearly there . . . (ie verse 17 “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”).

I’m not following you. How does Gen 2:17 validate the concept of free-will?

 

[tabcom]

Why is it that those who believe in predestination are so sure they’re predestined to heaven? I can’t recall hearing anyone claim they were predestined to hell…

**Once again, you have to define predestination. Predestination is God putting his family within a boundary before they were even born and commanding them to do something. That doing something is conforming to the likeness of Jesus. That is not a one time event. It takes a lifetime to complete.

Romans 8:29,30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Predestinate is the Greek word Pro’orizo. Pro’orizo means to prebound or predetermine boundary lines in advance. Pro’orizo is a construction of the prefix pro (our prefix “pre”, meaning before) and the Greek word ‘Orizo – to bound or to mark out a boundary, to appoint, decree, specify, declare, determine, limit, ordain

The small mark ‘ before the word ‘Orizo is called a diacritical mark. It has an “h” sound. The word ‘orizo is written “Horizo” and pronounced, “Horidzo”( the “z” is pronounced “dz” in the Greek). This word looks similar to our word “Horizon”. That is because it is exactly our word horizon. The horizon was a very familiar boundary line to Jewish mind. It was the division or the boundary of light (day) and darkness (night). Jesus said, “Ye are the light of the world.” (Matt. 5:14). Light is equated with Truth throughout scripture. Paul said, “Ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord, walk as children of light. – have no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness” (Eph. 5:8,11). Again, Paul said, “Be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers – what communion hath light with darkness?” (II Cor. 6:14). Unbelievers are equated as living in darkness, therefore believers are equated with light – light is always equivalent to Truth. We are commanded to walk in the light.**

 

[tabcom]

Ad Hominum.

The poster is using sound reasoning in a spirit of Sentia Pia and is conforming with the Church’s rule of Opinio Tolerata. Neither states the view must initially be positive in favor of the Church’s stance.

**Excuse my ignorance.

Would you be so kind as to define ‘Ad Hominum’ and ‘Sentia Pia’?**

 

[tabcom]

**Kleenex and tissue.
Band-Aid and bandage
Calvinist and predestination

How is it that the Calvinist did such an excellent job of marketing to get their name linked with the word predestination every time it it mentioned?**