Predestination/Calvinism

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cruxis117
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Cruxis117

Guest
Well, let’s talk about predestination/Calvinism.

While it is known that God has predestined some events, I’m talking about pure predestination (people chosen to go to heaven or hell). What’s your opinion? Maybe a discussion on this can flourish.
 
Well, let’s talk about predestination/Calvinism.

While it is known that God has predestined some events, I’m talking about pure predestination (people chosen to go to heaven or hell). What’s your opinion? Maybe a discussion on this can flourish.
I am assuming what is meant is if some have no choice of heaven or hell.

My personal take is this would be the ultimate cruel joke. The carrot of salvation hung before you yet it can not be obtained due to the fact you were made to go to hell. I think paragraph 600 of the CCC should be referred to.

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396
 
Although GOD knows what decision we will make at any given time, HE does not make us make that decision. We are capable of making our own decisions … we have free will. We are predestined to make a choice ; to follow HIS will or to follow our own .
 
Although GOD knows what decision we will make at any given time, HE does not make us make that decision. We are capable of making our own decisions … we have free will. We are predestined to make a choice ; to follow HIS will or to follow our own.
Is this like a “garden of forking paths” kind of thing?

If so, just for the sake of discussion, let’s say I tell you that’s paradoxical. God knows what decision we will make, and since He knows what will happen and He’s never wrong, that means only one future is possible. But in order to uphold free will, we assume that you must have “the ability to choose otherwise.” This necessitates a situation where two futures are possible. The one where you follow His will, and the one where you follow your own.

But if God knows which one you will choose, doesn’t that mean the other one is impossible? For if God knows what choice you will make, even though you don’t know it yourself, it is impossible for you to make a choice if God knows you will not make it. Therefore, if both paths were actually possible, God would not know exactly which one you will take. But that’s not consistent with God’s nature, is it?

So we must uphold God’s ability to know the future, to be outside of time, to see eternity past and eternity future as equally present. So when you come to a fork in the road with two ways to go, God knows which one you will take and it is impossible for him to be wrong. Therefore, when you say it actually is possible for you to take either path (in order to uphold free will), are you not saying, in effect, “God could be right, but it’s equally possible for Him to be wrong”? This, too, is not consistent with God’s nature.

I think it goes something like that. I’m playing devil’s advocate, of course. Just trying to get things going. This is just one way of describing the conundrum, but it consists of affirming two things about God: -A- He knows the future, and -B- He can’t be wrong. How then do you preserve free will, insofar as free will requires that you have “the ability to do otherwise”?
 
What about the Jews in the OT. There were none saved outside them except a handfull of others.
 
How do we know that the Jews in the OT weren’t saved?
The Jews were Gods’ chosen people. There were few outside them who were saved. Have you not read the OT and seen Gods’ intimate relationship with them.

God limited salvaltion exclusively to Abraham, Issac and Jacob. When Jesus came he made it possible for the gentiles.
 
The Jews were Gods’ chosen people. There were few outside them who were saved. Have you not read the OT and seen Gods’ intimate relationship with them.

God limited salvaltion exclusively to Abraham, Issac and Jacob. When Jesus came he made it possible for the gentiles.
Oh. I misread your post. I thought you said the Jews weren’t saved except for a few.

What you actually said was that unless you were a Jew you probably weren’t saved, right?

Well, who is it that you know that is in hell from the OT?
 
Oh. I misread your post. I thought you said the Jews weren’t saved except for a few.

What you actually said was that unless you were a Jew you probably weren’t saved, right?

Well, who is it that you know that is in hell from the OT?
There was What’s’isname, wasn’t there? Who could ever forget What’s’isname? 🙂

Nostalgically,
Mick
👍
 
The Jews were Gods’ chosen people. There were few outside them who were saved. Have you not read the OT and seen Gods’ intimate relationship with them.

God limited salvaltion exclusively to Abraham, Issac and Jacob. When Jesus came he made it possible for the gentiles.
Hi jericho777:

Why do you suppose that God made all of the other people who lived outside of Judaism? What are your thoughts on all of the Asian cultures, Native American cultures, African cultures, Nordic peoples, Eskimos and so forth? Were they put here to serve as a dull backdrop to further glorify a small tribal culture who were “chosen” ? What are your thoughts on that? If He had a chosen people, what criteria did He use to sort them out from all the billions of other souls He created, and why would He create all of these these other souls in the first place? How was it that the majority of the people He created weren’t selected to know about the creation of the universe 6,000 years ago in six earth days, and Noah’s Ark and Adam and Eve? I wonder what was in the DNA or spiritual makeup of the Jewish people that caused this exclusivity and favor? Just interested in your thoughts and reasoning on that.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
Hi jericho777:

Why do you suppose that God made all of the other people who lived outside of Judaism? What are your thoughts on all of the Asian cultures, Native American cultures, African cultures, Nordic peoples, Eskimos and so forth? Were they put here to serve as a dull backdrop to further glorify a small tribal culture who were “chosen” ? What are your thoughts on that? If He had a chosen people, what criteria did He use to sort them out from all the billions of other souls He created, and why would He create all of these these other souls in the first place? How was it that the majority of the people He created weren’t selected to know about the creation of the universe 6,000 years ago in six earth days, and Noah’s Ark and Adam and Eve? I wonder what was in the DNA or spiritual makeup of the Jewish people that caused this exclusivity and favor? Just interested in your thoughts and reasoning on that.

Your friend
Sufjon
Hello Sufjon, I do not know the mind of God; nor do I know why He has set things up as they are. He ultimately chooses who will be saved or lost. His sovereign will, will be fulfilled. What He purposes will come to pass.

He sovereignly chose to save Noah and His family while damning the rest of the world. That said we have the great commission to fulfill. We are to preach the gospel to all men and let God do the rest.

This might give some insight into the purposes of God.

Romans 9:16-24 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
 
Hello Sufjon,

-He ultimately chooses who will be saved or lost. His sovereign will, will be fulfilled. What He purposes will come to pass.

-He sovereignly chose to save Noah and His family while damning the rest of the world. That said we have the great commission to fulfill.
Thanks Jericho:

These are some of the things I find puzzling, and I have some questions on that if I may. If God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost, is that predetermined, or does He find out later after it happens and then judge people? If He knew all along, then why would He make all of the people who ultimately don;t make it? The only purpose I can see in that would be to watch some people suffer. If on the other hand He doesn’t know the outcome of each soul beforehand, then He is lacking in knowledge, and makes things that go awry. Case in point is the the story of Noah you mentioned. It didn’t seem He was happy with the outcome on how people acted in Noah’s time. This means He created a world that didn’t turn out the way He wanted it to, so He got mad and broke it. Let’s call that the free will version of God. That means that He is the sort of creator who makes things that don’t turn out the way He plans and then gets mad and busts it up like so many toys when He doesn’t get His way. The alternative is that He knew people would turn out the unlike what He wanted and created them anyway so He could destroy them. Let’s call that the no-free will God. In either case, it would seem rather sad to me that we would have that sort of creator. So, I have three questions. First, can you tell me if there is a third alternative other than the two I listed? Secondly, can you tell me which of these creators you think we have, and thirdly, how do you come to love something like that? I can easily see how you could fear something like that, but loving it would be another matter. Being one of His creations would seem to be like being the child of some twisted guy who keeps you trapped and tormented in his basement and he only lets you out to play in the yard when you make him feel good. Is it something like Stockholm Syndrome?

Thanks for your patience and help.

Your friend,
Sufjon
 
Well, let’s talk about predestination/Calvinism.

While it is known that God has predestined some events, I’m talking about pure predestination (people chosen to go to heaven or hell). What’s your opinion? Maybe a discussion on this can flourish.
I’ve flogged this one to death on this forum but on the night my father died he appeared in my room. He started with an apology for his years of cruelty (summed up by himself literaly as “I’ve been an absolute mongrel to you!”), we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this almighty, terrifying scream and then disappeared.

I think it was him, and I believe he’s in hell.

However during the discussion he once blurted out, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!” I argued back, saying that couldn’t be right (incidentally I was an atheist at the time - this was 1979). He replied, “Oh, it’s right, all right. You can see that from here!”

But later he also admitted, “I was WILLING” (to do the things that damned him).

When I spoke about this to my old pastor, his comment was “I think he was willing. In fact, I’d say he was very willing”.

So predestination may well operate, but so does our choice.

As an anecdote, he died in Nundah, which is a suburb of Brisbane. At the time I was living in Yeronga, another suburb.

Sometime around 2005/6 I was driving a cab a couple of nights a week. One night I happened to be in Nundah, and this brought to mind the above episode. Since there is some frustration associated with this, I prayed that if what happened that night was real, could I please have some sort of “sign” or confirmation. I got this sense I ought to know better than ask, but I did so.

Later that same night I was sitting on the Queen Street rank, when a bloke came up, weaving slightly from too much alcohol, hopped in and said, “Nundah!” I asked him where, and he said, “Just drive. I’ll tell you where to go.”

Off we went. I followed his instructions and ended up at the house directly opposite the unit where my father died. I even mentioned it to him, but I don’t think he found it edifying.

But that was the very same night I asked for a “Sign”. And I got it.

Now I had free will where I drove that night, every other cabbie and passenger who used the Queen Street rank that night used their own free will, and the bloke who wanted to go to the house directly opposite my father’s death unit also had free will. Yet somehow God managed to get it all to line up.

Free will? Predestination? Sheer co-incidence? You tell me, and we’ll both know.
 
Thanks Jericho:

These are some of the things I find puzzling, and I have some questions on that if I may. If God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost, is that predetermined, or does He find out later after it happens and then judge people? If He knew all along, then why would He make all of the people who ultimately don;t make it? The only purpose I can see in that would be to watch some people suffer. If on the other hand He doesn’t know the outcome of each soul beforehand, then He is lacking in knowledge, and makes things that go awry. Case in point is the the story of Noah you mentioned. It didn’t seem He was happy with the outcome on how people acted in Noah’s time. This means He created a world that didn’t turn out the way He wanted it to, so He got mad and broke it. Let’s call that the free will version of God. That means that He is the sort of creator who makes things that don’t turn out the way He plans and then gets mad and busts it up like so many toys when He doesn’t get His way. The alternative is that He knew people would turn out the unlike what He wanted and created them anyway so He could destroy them. Let’s call that the no-free will God. In either case, it would seem rather sad to me that we would have that sort of creator. So, I have three questions. First, can you tell me if there is a third alternative other than the two I listed? Secondly, can you tell me which of these creators you think we have, and thirdly, how do you come to love something like that? I can easily see how you could fear something like that, but loving it would be another matter. Being one of His creations would seem to be like being the child of some twisted guy who keeps you trapped and tormented in his basement and he only lets you out to play in the yard when you make him feel good. Is it something like Stockholm Syndrome?

Thanks for your patience and help.

Your friend,
Sufjon
Hello sufjon, First God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Also we all deserve to be eternally separated from a holy and just God but by His grace we are saved. Therein lays the dilemma. If you do a word search for foreknew, predestined, elect, election, chose and chosen. Read all the related scripture verses I think you will be able to get the answer for yourself.

This is by no means an exhaustive list. Gen. 45:8; 50:20; Job 14:5; Psalm 33:13-14; 115:3; 147:5; Prov. 5:21; 15:3; 16:1, 4, 9, 33; Is. 14:26-27; Dan. 4:33-34; John. 1:13; 13:18; Acts 2:23; Rom. 8:29-30; 9:9-18; Eph. 1:2-14; 2 Thess. 2:13-15; 1 Pet. 1:1-3, 20

Please re read Rom 9:16-24 it contains many of the different issues you are asking about. The JW’s can’t love a God who would send someone to hell for eternity.
 
Sufjon,

I think you’re making this more complicated than you need to. God is omnipresent in space/time. He sees the past, present and future all at once. Now, suppose I travel forward in time and record next year’s Superbowl. I know which teams make it there, who does what during every play, and how it all goes down. That doesn’t change the fact that each and every player in the league still has the free will to make the correct choices necessary to get to that Superbowl and win it. Some players have already made choices to get them well on the road to victory. Others (like most of the players on my Cleveland Browns for instance) haven’t done such a great job. The free will choices between players, coaches, owners, teams and divisions, coupled with varying circumstances such as weather, sickness, injury, etc. will ultimately, in the end, determine who wins the Superbowl. But the concept that the end result may be “known” by an entity who can see forward in time does not negate the principle of free will; in fact it DEPENDS UPON IT. Besides, God knows it doesn’t matter if you win or lose, it’s how you play the game! Go Browns!!! 😉
 
Sufjon,

I think you’re making this more complicated than you need to. God is omnipresent in space/time. He sees the past, present and future all at once. Now, suppose I travel forward in time and record next year’s Superbowl. I know which teams make it there, who does what during every play, and how it all goes down. That doesn’t change the fact that each and every player in the league still has the free will to make the correct choices necessary to get to that Superbowl and win it. Some players have already made choices to get them well on the road to victory. Others (like most of the players on my Cleveland Browns for instance) haven’t done such a great job. The free will choices between players, coaches, owners, teams and divisions, coupled with varying circumstances such as weather, sickness, injury, etc. will ultimately, in the end, determine who wins the Superbowl. But the concept that the end result may be “known” by an entity who can see forward in time does not negate the principle of free will; in fact it DEPENDS UPON IT. Besides, God knows it doesn’t matter if you win or lose, it’s how you play the game! Go Browns!!! 😉
Dear AngloCatholic: Thank you for the reply. Perhaps I am in fact making this harder than it needs to be, like you said. You mentioned that God knows the outcomes but we have free will. I can’t see those two things being other than at odds with one another. It seems to me that there is a strong relationship between a given reality and the observation of the reality. They are interdependent. By observing a given potential outcome, I have caused that outcome to collapse into a reality through my observation. Once it has been observed, there is no other outcome. That points to a unified theory, which seems to require that all events between the beginning and the end are inescapable from the beginning. This also means that the beginning is also dependent on the end and all events in between are encoded like information on a DVD. All we can do is play them out. In that case we would experience the illusion of free will because the illusion of time makes it appear that the events are occurring in serial as we move through them, when really they were always there and we are just the reading devices that play them out, like a DVD player. In short, by knowing the outcome of next year’s Super Bowl, my conscious observation of the outcome has caused that potential outcome to collapse into a certain reality. The players on all of the football teams competing with one another experience the illusion of free will, but they are now only marching into a certainty that I created by observing it in the first place. All of their efforts are now merely a cruel joke unless you happen to be the team I knew would win, or if you somehow just found a way to enjoy the experience along the way without any attachment to a particular ending.

Your friend,
Sufjon
 
Hi jericho777:

Why do you suppose that God made all of the other people who lived outside of Judaism? What are your thoughts on all of the Asian cultures, Native American cultures, African cultures, Nordic peoples, Eskimos and so forth? Were they put here to serve as a dull backdrop to further glorify a small tribal culture who were “chosen” ? What are your thoughts on that? If He had a chosen people, what criteria did He use to sort them out from all the billions of other souls He created, and why would He create all of these these other souls in the first place? How was it that the majority of the people He created weren’t selected to know about the creation of the universe 6,000 years ago in six earth days, and Noah’s Ark and Adam and Eve? I wonder what was in the DNA or spiritual makeup of the Jewish people that caused this exclusivity and favor? Just interested in your thoughts and reasoning on that.

Your friend
Sufjon
good question Sufjon. yes i would be curious to know about Melchezidech who was not a Hebrew, who was a priest of the most high God, before, the nation of Israel was even conceived of. where did he get his knowledge? Interesting huh?👍 maybe the legends surrounding the Zohar, are true after all! that would be amazing. peace to you and yours. 🙂
 
God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. that being said, i dont believe he predestines anyone to hell, or heaven. God wishes that all men come to a knowledge of the truth, and receive salvation from him. he hinders no man/woman. seek and ye shall find. knock, and the door shall be opened unto you. are we to say, that God is a liar? that some people knock, and seek, but dont receive these promises because God has already condemned them from eternity? how silly is this? i was raised Calvinist, and one of my biggest fears, was that i could just be fooling myself. because even if i believed in Jesus, and lived the Christian life, it could very well be in vain, because, God may have already damned me from eternity. i know i was not the only one who felt this way. Peace 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top