Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...

[PRmerger]

Oh, good. I can see you’re online now, Christian Unity.

Can you please answer the question I posed on page 9: When was it that Cornelius became regenerated?

I didn’t understand your answer. Please be specific. Thanks.

 

[fhansen]

From first beginnings to final completion, salvation is by grace

Since these things are so, everything that is commanded to human beings by the Lord in the holy Scriptures, for the sake of testing human free will, is either something we begin to obey by God’s goodness, or is demanded in order to show us our need of grace to do it. Indeed, a person does not even begin to be changed from evil to good by the first stirrings of faith, unless the free and gratuitous mercy of God produces this in him…. So, therefore, we should think of God’s grace as working from the beginning of a person’s changing towards goodness, even to the end of its completion, so that he who glories may glory in the Lord. For just as no-one can bring goodness to perfection without the Lord, so no one can begin it without the Lord.

Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, 2:23

Yes. “Apart from Me you can do nothing”. And apart from a savior throwing a drowning man a life preserver the man cannot be saved. And yet, unless the man, however weakly, grabs onto the life preserver he will not be saved anyway. Another Augustine quote:

"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."
St. Augustine, Sermo 169,11,13L 38,923

 

[Christian_Unity]

Oh, good. I can see you’re online now, Christian Unity.

Can you please answer the question I posed on page 9: When was it that Cornelius became regenerated?

I didn’t understand your answer. Please be specific. Thanks.

Before he was baptized.

 

[guanophore]

 Okay, help me understand why you consider the Bible to be a Catholic book.  When the OT was being recorded, I think the Catholic Church did not exist, correct? Do you think OT believers were saved by the work of Christ on their behalf, or the Church, or some other way?

Yes.

Matt 13:17
17 Truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

John 8:56
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad."

 On the other hand, I believe in remnant theology in which OT and NT saints makeup one redeemed people of God; all saved by the person and work of Christ.  I rejoice with Job saying that my redeemer lives (Jesus Christ). Outside of Christ, there is no salvation. ;)

Christ is not separated from His One Church. It is not a headless church. You cannot be part of HIm without also being part of His Church.

 

[guanophore]

Since you are an RCIA student, it is good to remind you that the CCC recognizes Protestants baptized in the Triune formula without participating in the Catholic Church as your separated brethrens.

Actually it would be more accurate to say that such baptisms ARE a participation in the CC.

Do you know what Scripture reveals about those who do not obey the gospel? Can you show me in Scripture that participation in the Catholic Church is required for obeying the gospel?

Eph 5:29-31
… as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body…

1 Cor 6:15
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?

Eph 4:4-6
here is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

All who are members of Christ are members of His One Body, the Church. Jesus only established One Church.

Better yet, please share with me your understanding of the gospel according to Paul? Please participate on the Forensic justification thread if you want to discuss Sola Fide.

Paul’s gospel was not different than that of the other Apostles.

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[guanophore]

The OT is not a Catholic book, rather it is a Jewish book. Please show me where the seven Catholic sacraments are taught in the OT too.

he explained everything.

Everything in the OT is understood by the Church according to the One Faith committed to her once for all time.

 

[guanophore]

Before he was baptized.

Yes we are in agreement on this point.

So, how does Calvanism’s TULIP account for the fact that Cornelius was able to seek and to please God prior to being regenerated? I thought that, according to Calvin, this was not possible?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Yes we are in agreement on this point.

So, how does Calvanism’s TULIP account for the fact that Cornelius was able to seek and to please God prior to being regenerated? I thought that, according to Calvin, this was not possible?

I can’t speak for John Calvin or TULIP, nor will I try. I can post what the Apostle has to say with those who are unregenerate:

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom 8

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Rom 3

We have to assume that Cornelius was one of the elect of whom by sovereign grace, was regenerate for God’s purpose of revealing the inclusion of the Gentiles into the family of God.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Never heard of “remnant theology” in scripture. Is that some sort of ancient Christian Tradition? Or just something you believe personally? Where is the Church Jesus established BTW? In the hearts of various Christians who believe variously while all holding onto the same wild card known as sola scriptura?

Remnant theology is older than Catholic theology in the sense that God has his remnant or elect right after the fall of mankind.

 

[PRmerger]

We have to assume that Cornelius was one of the elect of whom by sovereign grace, was regenerate for God’s purpose of revealing the inclusion of the Gentiles into the family of God.

Do the elect need to be baptized?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Do the elect need to be baptized?

I don’t think so. All of the elect in the Old Testament were not baptized. Also the thief on the cross was not baptized.

 

[KathleenGee]

I am briefly stepping in here…Thanks, Christian Unity for sharing with us your involvement with Protestant classes and reading Catholic material on your own.

I would greatly suggest…that you join a Catholic class that interests you.

For the time I have been reading your posts…and they are invigorating and challenging… I have had the impression you have studied formally in a Protestant class but not in any Catholic classes.

I would greatly encourage you to do so because you will find it a gathering, a community of pondering, reflecting, and finding out key points you may not have in Protestant ones.

You are studying Catholicism from a singular, private manner which is a Protestant manner. Catholicism is communal, and is built step by step…for 2,000 years. If you go to a Catholic class, there will always be someone who will have alot of insight and be alot of help, and a source of grace…

 

[Radyj]

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. - Bible

Is he implying that he is suffering, or that we are afflicting him? I love how ambiguous passages are thrown up on soon to be dead threads. Thx everyone for answering questions for me I was working, we were actually busy tonight so no CA forum for me.
I guess one good turn deserves another.

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:53-58[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Christian_Unity]

I am briefly stepping in here…Thanks, Christian Unity for sharing with us your involvement with Protestant classes and reading Catholic material on your own.

I would greatly suggest…that you join a Catholic class that interests you.

For the time I have been reading your posts…and they are invigorating and challenging… I have had the impression you have studied formally in a Protestant class but not in any Catholic classes.

I would greatly encourage you to do so because you will find it a gathering, a community of pondering, reflecting, and finding out key points you may not have in Protestant ones.

You are studying Catholicism from a singular, private manner which is a Protestant manner. Catholicism is communal, and is built step by step…for 2,000 years. If you go to a Catholic class, there will always be someone who will have alot of insight and be alot of help, and a source of grace…

Thank you for the continual kind and Christ-like postings. I was invited to RCIA classes about 14 years ago. I actually went to a few of them. I also went to quite a few Catholic Mass services over the years, and attended Catholic weddings. I’ve always had Catholic friends and found them to be very compassionate and kind people. On an intellectual standpoint, I have found this link to be the most insightful. I have not come to the same conclusion as Joshua Linn, but I do identify with some of the things that he shares.

calledtocommunion.com/2012/05/joshua-lims-story-a-westminary-seminary-california-student-becomes-catholic/

 

[Christian_Unity]

Is he implying that he is suffering, or that we are afflicting him? I love how ambiguous passages are thrown up on soon to be dead threads. Thx everyone for answering questions for me I was working, we were actually busy tonight so no CA forum for me.
I guess one good turn deserves another.

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:53-58[/BIBLEDRB]

Let’s try this. What is the gospel that Paul is speaking of?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Apostle Paul - Rom 1

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t think so. All of the elect in the Old Testament were not baptized.

So in your theology what does baptism do?

Also the thief on the cross was not baptized.

How do you know this? What verse in Scripture tells you he was not baptized?

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks for clarifying, Christian Unity.

You are bypassing Christ’s words at the Last Supper…that also are connecting in the big event of things in salvation history to prior in OT of individuals not being baptized.

You are missing the centrality of our coming together: worship where we are taught the word of God with the sacraments. When we go into the church, we renew our baptismal promises by signing of the cross with holy water at the fonts, when entering and leaving.

Worship is the time we basically come together as Christians on Resurrection Sunday. It is not daily Bible reading. We as church come together on this sacred day.

This coming together is likewise how we approach Sacred Scripture, not disassembling parts and bringing them into isolation and … even contention against the sacred gathering as church.

Again, I am inferring that studying Catholicism in a public group setting, a Catholic setting, you will come to find in time, that all the pieces fit.

Sacred Scripture is a Church book. It is not meant to be pondered in isolation, minus the Eucharist, minus the sacraments, but in Church. Same with studying Catholicism. Its basic construct is the whole of Jesus Christ, not separated and isolated parts. Doing so makes them vulnerable to being interpreted into something they were not meant to be or do.

 

[Christian_Unity]

So in your theology what does baptism do?

How do you know this? What verse in Scripture tells you he was not baptized?

Baptism is a means of grace; we receive grace when partaking in the sacrament of baptism by faith.

Here is the verse about the thief on the cross. From my reading of Scripture, I don’ think he was baptized, do you?

Luke 23:40-45

But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, while the sun’s light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

 

[Christian_Unity]

This is very applicable regarding the thread topic. Any comments are welcome about this link:

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/counciltrent.html

Contrasting Augustine and the Council of Orange (529 AD)
with The Council of Trent (1563) from a Protestant perspective.

 

[Radyj]

Baptism is a means of grace; we receive grace when partaking in the sacrament of baptism by faith.

Here is the verse about the thief on the cross. From my reading of Scripture, I don’ think he was baptized, do you?

Luke 23:40-45

But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, while the sun’s light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

I read nothing in that which said he was not baptized…

The gospel “good news” of Christ which Paul wrote of is explained in the following verses of Romans 1. when we get down to verse 5 of Romans 1 we see "Through him and for his name’s sake, we have received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to obedience that comes from faith.

If you want to continue down the path of *Sola Fide * I will call your attention to [BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 5:8[/BIBLEDRB]

I will make 3 points from this verse, 1) There is a work that one must do (caring for his own) that if he does not do he 2) denies the faith and 3) has become worse than a non believer

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]