Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...

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The only reason why anyone would insist that the thief on the cross was baptized is based on a theological distinctive of the Catholic view on baptism.
Just to be clear, no one here is “insisting” that the Good Thief received (water) baptism.

We don’t know, do we?

But for you to proclaim that he was* never* baptized, you will need to proffer the verse that says this.

Book, chapter and verse, please.

Otherwise, you have simply believed a man-made tradition. Something you heard a (fallible) man proclaim, who heard another (fallible) man proclaim, and who heard another (fallible) man proclaim…

but no one ever read, “The Good Thief was never baptized” in a single page of Scripture.
 
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 I can't speak for John Calvin or TULIP, nor will I try.
I have to admit, I am disappointed, but I also can appreiciate your avoidance of an indefensible position. This passage by itself is sufficient to refute the concept of total depravity.
I can post what the Apostle has to say with those who are unregenerate:
I think you are projecting a non-biblical notion into the text. It nowhere says that the natural man is “unregenerate”. It seems to me that your concept of “regeneration” is that the spirit of a person is quickened by the HS and he is united to Christ (born again). I think you also believe that the OT saints were also saved by Christ in this way, though they may not have known Him as we do. Please correct me if I am wrong on this point.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom 8

We have to assume that Cornelius was one of the elect of whom by sovereign grace, was regenerate for God’s purpose of revealing the inclusion of the Gentiles into the family of God.
For the sake of this discussion, I will stipulate that assumption. So, we both agree that Cornelius was regenerated before he was baptized. But at which point? How can you tell he was regenerated?
 
I don’t think so. All of the elect in the Old Testament were not baptized. Also the thief on the cross was not baptized. 😉
We don’t know this. He may have been among those who were baptized, then committed a crime later, or just came to payment of his previous crimes after his baptism.

But if not, he certainly endured the baptism of blood, which has always been recognized by the Church as accomplis
Let’s try this. What is the gospel that Paul is speaking of?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Apostle Paul - Rom 1
Mark 1:14-15

14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.”

All of the Apostles only preached one gospel. It was the one revealed to them by Christ. hing the same as water baptism.
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The thief wasn't good; he was just a vessel of mercy, or an elect of God... to the praise of His glorious grace.  I don't think it is Catholic doctrine to believe that the thief was baptized with water.
When people become vessels of mercy, they become good.

You are right, we are not bound to believe he was baptized in water, but by desire (I mistakenly wrote blood above meaning desire). We judge them by their fruits, and his good deeds demonstrate that his heart was joined with Christ.
 
It’s common knowledge that too much wasabi distorts your thinking just like too much pot.
If you are speaking from experience I guess I can not argue, maybe some people just don’t know how to handle their wasabi. I could say the same for fundamentalist theology.

If we are going to speak on the necessity of baptism I’m going to have to take the content off the thief on the cross. God only knows what he will do with the extraordinary, but baptism has been provided as the ordinary means of our salvation.

Romans 6 is a good place to start
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 28:19[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Colossians 2:11-12 [/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 3:27[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB] Acts 2:38-39 [/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 3:21[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]John 3:3-5 [/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 8:12-13[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 8:36[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 10:2 [/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 36:25[/BIBLEDRB]

Do I write something here or let the text speak for its self
 
About the penitent thief on the cross (St. Dimas) It is unknown if he was baptized? He may have recieved the Jewish baptism of repentance, or not, perhaps a Christian baptism, perhaps not, it’s unknown, either side would be speculation!

We do have Jesus telling the Apostles to baptize, and we see baptism throughout the N.T as the normative means of obtaining the Heaveny gift! The thief on the Cross, by no means was entering into paradise by normative means!

It shows that God is merciful, and an act of deep contrition is pleasing to our Lord!
 
Total depravity has to do of our inability to come to Christ on our own free will. So, nobody is able to come to Christ on our own will power because we are all depraved, in enmity with God, and children of darkness because we fell with Adam’s one act of disobedience. Regeneration means born from above (born again) in which Catholics believe too (see John chapter 3).
Yeah please look at John Chapter 3 verse 22 specifically, after the conversation with Nicodemus Jesus and his Disciples went out and told the world to say the sinners prayer and if they really meant it they would be saved forever… oh sorry I had a fundamentalist flashback… oh yeah they went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them and baptized.

How does the Idea of total depravity reconcile to itself things like Amos 5:4-6 or John 1:9 [BIBLEDRB]Amos 5:4-6[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]John 1:9[/BIBLEDRB]
 
The Church looks at the Word of God in its entirety.
This is how historic Protestants discern truth. This is taken from the Westminster Confession of Faith in regards to Scripture:

All which are given by inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life.

III. The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the Canon of Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.

IV. The authority of the holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or Church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the Author thereof; and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.

V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the holy Scripture; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet, notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.

VI. The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word; and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and the government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.

VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.

VIII. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as in all controversies of religion the Church is finally to appeal unto them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God who have right unto, and interest in, the Scriptures, and are commanded, in the fear of God, to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, may have hope.

IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture, is the Scripture itself; and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it may be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.

X. The Supreme Judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.
 
This is how historic Protestants discern truth. This is taken from the Westminster Confession of Faith in regards to Scripture:

All which are given by inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life.
III. The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the Canon of Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.
 
Please look at what you posted for the folly that it is, first of all Christ did not found a book he founded a Church, second to whom do you turn when there is a disagreement on the meaning of scripture? If you are correct in your statement how can 33,000+ denominations of protestant have 33,000+ views on what scripture means?
 
Please look at what you posted for the folly that it is, first of all Christ did not found a book he founded a Church, second to whom do you turn when there is a disagreement on the meaning of scripture? If you are correct in your statement how can 33,000+ denominations of protestant have 33,000+ views on what scripture means?
Holy Scripture is sacred scripture which is special revelation from above. It is God-breathed revelation. It seems your apparent view of Scripture may not be consistent with Catholic theology. Holy Scripture is not a Catholic issue or a Protestant issue or an Orthodox issue… all true Christians recognizes that Holy Scripture is from God. All three branches of Christianity have a high view of Holy sacred Scripture as being divine revelation. Without Holy Scripture, we would not know how to be reconciled to God.

I’m not sure how the 33,000 denominations have to do with the thread topic. Maybe that can be a topic of another thread?
 
Holy Scripture is sacred scripture which is special revelation from above. It is God-breathed revelation. It seems your apparent view of Scripture may not be consistent with Catholic theology. Holy Scripture is not a Catholic issue or a Protestant issue or an Orthodox issue… all true Christians recognizes that Holy Scripture is from God. All three branches of Christianity have a high view of Holy sacred Scripture as being divine revelation. Without Holy Scripture, we would not know how to be reconciled to God.

I’m not sure how the 33,000 denominations have to do with the thread topic. Maybe that can be a topic of another thread?
Holy Scripture is God breathed, so is the Church John 20:22, so is Sacred tradition 2 Thess 2:15, I am saying in regards to the Interpration of scripture, to whom do you go when there is a disagreement, or do you just split and make a new church?

Tell me in the Bible where it says what books should be in the Bible, since it is the only rule of faith, or in the bible where it says the bible is the only rule of faith?
 
Holy Scripture is sacred scripture which is special revelation from above.
How do you know that?
Holy Scripture is not a Catholic issue or a Protestant issue or an Orthodox issue… all true Christians recognizes that Holy Scripture is from God.
How is it that they all recognize that it is from God?
All three branches of Christianity have a high view of Holy sacred Scripture as being divine revelation. Without Holy Scripture, we would not know how to be reconciled to God.
Wrong. The Catholic Church possessed the fulness of truth before a word of the New Testament was written and was the means for reconciliation with God.
 
This is how historic Protestants discern truth. This is taken from the Westminster Confession of Faith in regards to Scripture:

Not for this Protestant. :nope:

The WCF is too modern and in English. It need to be in German for me to even consider it. 😛

Plus… it’s wrong in several places. 🙂
 
Not for this Protestant. :nope:

The WCF is too modern and in English. It need to be in German for me to even consider it. 😛

Plus… it’s wrong in several places. 🙂
That’s okay; can you post a Lutheran confessional statement regarding Scripture?
 
How do you know that?

How is it that they all recognize that it is from God?

Wrong. The Catholic Church possessed the fulness of truth before a word of the New Testament was written and was the means for reconciliation with God.
Help me understand official Catholic theology. Did the Catholic Church start with Peter?
 
Holy Scripture is sacred scripture which is special revelation from above. It is God-breathed revelation.

How do you know this? Did you come to this conclusion on your own accord? Or did someone tell you? Or there was a revelation to you?
It seems your apparent view of Scripture may not be consistent with Catholic theology.
 
Ok probably the last post for me on this thread, OP can not pull scriptural reference for his belief that scripture alone is the rule by which faith must be measured, Calvanism predestination theory is dead in the water and he’s just trolling by this point in the conversation.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 7:7[/BIBLEDRB]
 
Holy Scripture is sacred scripture which is special revelation from above. It is God-breathed revelation. It seems your apparent view of Scripture may not be consistent with Catholic theology. Holy Scripture is not a Catholic issue or a Protestant issue or an Orthodox issue… all true Christians recognizes that Holy Scripture is from God. All three branches of Christianity have a high view of Holy sacred Scripture as being divine revelation. Without Holy Scripture, we would not know how to be reconciled to God.
The church was preaching the gospel before a word of the NT was written. And while all Christians revere the word of God, that fact doesn’t, by itself, guarantee that they’ll necessarily even agree on what it means!
 
Help me understand official Catholic theology. Did the Catholic Church start with Peter?
:confused: The Catholic Church started with Jesus. “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”
 
That’s okay; can you post a Lutheran confessional statement regarding Scripture?
I don’t see anything in the Lutheran confessions, but as a Lutheran I would defer to Luther’s Bible and say that we need all the books that Luther translated. So the full set would be ideal.

I know my own synod is placing more emphasis on the “Apocrypha” and it looks like they will be included by default in printings at some point in the future.
 
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