Predestination problems

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Capuchinfan1337

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Ok, I just realized a pretty big problem with the Calvinist thought of Predestination or the fact that you are either saved (elect) or not (going straight to hell). The problem with this is three fold: one it means that free will does not exist and all decisions are all ready made and a good person can never do anything horrible and furthermore it is sola fide argument which contradicts: James 2:14-26. Two, it claims Christ died for the sins of the few and not the entire World contradicting scripture again: 1 John 2:2. And finally, it encourages pride by saying “I’m totally saved and there’s nothing I can do mess this up and who doesn’t share the same belief will go straight to hell”.When the opposite is true in both scripture Matthew 7:1 and by Augustine of HIppo himself “It was pride that changed angels into devils; it is humility that makes men as angels.”

So I, would like to hear the protestant justification for Predestination.
 
I have siad it before and I will say it again:

did you ever notice that those who believe in predestination "know’ that they are part of this small group?
 
I think the Calvinist would say something to the effect that his good works are what God is actualizing through their lives. In other words, they will take a passage like James 2 and say that is not a “prescriptive” text, meaning something we should read as instruction, but rather a “descriptive” text, meaning something that describes the nature of a Christian.

Now, there are all kinds of problems with that reasoning, particularly that the text itself, and other such passages, are written prescriptively.

Another interesting angle I’ve heard against the idea of limited atonement (i.e. that Christ only died for some) is that Calvinists believe they are to evangelize the Gospel to the whole world, and this constitutes the “outward call” to grace that appears to the whole world. However, in order to preach the Gospel, they must call the audience to accept that Christ is their Savior. Yet in Calvinist theology, Christ is NOT the Savior of the reprobate. So those reprobates who reject the Gospel message are actually rejecting what is, for them, a lie - because Christ isn’t really their Savior. So essentially, in Calvinist theology, it could be that the reprobate will be punished for not believing a lie preached by the elect.
 
Well when 100% of protestantism in all it’s tens of thousands of branches are 100% man made and the beliefs/institutions themselves have less than zero tie to our Lord Jesus Christ, it probably shouldn’t be surprising that they would be led to believe conflicting and sometimes simply downright asinine things. Thank God Christ created His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Without it satan would claim this world and every single soul in it. Protestantism itself “can” be a tool for satan to attempt to cause more schism and damage to the Bride of Christ, and further lead people away from Christ and into the trappings of these erroneous fallacies of man made protestantism
 
Doxiemom said:
I have siad it before and I will say it again:

did you ever notice that those who believe in predestination "know’ that they are part of this small group?
Click to expand...
Actually the number of people who believe in Predestination is actually kind of high there are some Catholics that do.
 
Capuchinfan1337 said:
Actually the number of people who believe in Predestination is actually kind of high there are some Catholics that do.
Click to expand...
I do not believe some Catholics believe in predestination in the way that a Calvinist would see it.

I believe most Catholics believe we all are predestined to God and we can turn away from that by our freewill. I could be wrong 🤷
 
Capuchinfan1337 said:
Actually the number of people who believe in Predestination is actually kind of high there are some Catholics that do.
Click to expand...
Not just some Catholics, but predestination is a dogma of faith; Catholics are required to accept it. In short, God does predestine some people to glory and ensures that this happens. However, this happens always with the free will of the predestined person. How exactly this happens is not defined by the Church and there are multiple acceptable theories.

Further, it is to be held that no one knows if one is of the elect; while there may be signs of one’s predestination, without special revelation, no one knows this with absolute certainty.
 
aidanbradypop said:
I do not believe some Catholics believe in predestination in the way that a Calvinist would see it.

I believe most Catholics believe we all are predestined to God and we can turn away from that by our freewill. I could be wrong 🤷
Click to expand...
The Catholic teaching is that God never takes away anyone’s free will, but he does predestine certain people to heaven and infallibly secures the salvation of those he predestines (and this is not all people).

One should not confuse the Universal Desire for Salvation with the Predestination of the Elect. God does desire the salvation of all, but will not infallibly secure the salvation of all, but only some.
 
Capuchinfan1337 said:
Ok, I just realized a pretty big problem with the Calvinist thought of Predestination or the fact that you are either saved (elect) or not (going straight to hell). The problem with this is three fold: one it means that free will does not exist and all decisions are all ready made and a good person can never do anything horrible and furthermore it is sola fide argument which contradicts: James 2:14-26. Two, it claims Christ died for the sins of the few and not the entire World contradicting scripture again: 1 John 2:2. And finally, it encourages pride by saying “I’m totally saved and there’s nothing I can do mess this up and who doesn’t share the same belief will go straight to hell”.When the opposite is true in both scripture Matthew 7:1 and by Augustine of HIppo himself “It was pride that changed angels into devils; it is humility that makes men as angels.”

So I, would like to hear the protestant justification for Predestination.
Click to expand...
You just summed up my problem with predestination. BTW, there’s one more point to make,
If “elect” know their “saved”, if you don’t feel “elect” why try?
 
Capuchinfan1337 said:
Ok, I just realized a pretty big problem with the Calvinist thought of Predestination or the fact that you are either saved (elect) or not (going straight to hell). The problem with this is three fold: one it means that free will does not exist and all decisions are all ready made and a good person can never do anything horrible and furthermore it is sola fide argument which contradicts: James 2:14-26. Two, it claims Christ died for the sins of the few and not the entire World contradicting scripture again: 1 John 2:2. And finally, it encourages pride by saying “I’m totally saved and there’s nothing I can do mess this up and who doesn’t share the same belief will go straight to hell”.When the opposite is true in both scripture Matthew 7:1 and by Augustine of HIppo himself “It was pride that changed angels into devils; it is humility that makes men as angels.”

So I, would like to hear the protestant justification for Predestination.
Click to expand...
Just so you know this is about a whole misunderstand regarding Romans 9. Here you go this guy is awesome. He explains it better then me. catholicnick.blogspot.com/2012/03/does-romans-9-condemn-unconditional.html
 
Capuchinfan1337 said:
Ok, I just realized a pretty big problem with the Calvinist thought of Predestination or the fact that you are either saved (elect) or not (going straight to hell). The problem with this is three fold: one it means that free will does not exist and all decisions are all ready made and a good person can never do anything horrible and furthermore it is sola fide argument which contradicts: James 2:14-26. Two, it claims Christ died for the sins of the few and not the entire World contradicting scripture again: 1 John 2:2. And finally, it encourages pride by saying “I’m totally saved and there’s nothing I can do mess this up and who doesn’t share the same belief will go straight to hell”.When the opposite is true in both scripture Matthew 7:1 and by Augustine of HIppo himself “It was pride that changed angels into devils; it is humility that makes men as angels.”

So I, would like to hear the protestant justification for Predestination.
Click to expand...
I believe there is only two views of predestination depending on how you understand the word “foreknew”. As a Calvinist, I can support and agree on the Catholic Aquinas-Thomas-Augustine view of predestination.

catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2009/08/misunderstanding-of-catholic.html
 
october_baby said:
You just summed up my problem with predestination. BTW, there’s one more point to make,
If “elect” know their “saved”, if you don’t feel “elect” why try?
Click to expand...
2 Peter 1 (Make your calling and election sure)

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
porthos11 said:
The Catholic teaching is that God never takes away anyone’s free will, but he does predestine certain people to heaven and infallibly secures the salvation of those he predestines (and this is not all people).

One should not confuse the Universal Desire for Salvation with the Predestination of the Elect. God does desire the salvation of all, but will not infallibly secure the salvation of all, but only some.
Click to expand...
Sounds like basic Calvinism to me 🙂
 
Christian_Unity said:
2 Peter 1 (Make your calling and election sure)

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
If God predestinates people to 'election" then it would stand to reason there would
no way you could make sure of your “election” only God could do that.
 
porthos11 said:
The Catholic teaching is that God never takes away anyone’s free will, but he does predestine certain people to heaven and infallibly secures the salvation of those he predestines (and this is not all people).

One should not confuse the Universal Desire for Salvation with the Predestination of the Elect. God does desire the salvation of all, but will not infallibly secure the salvation of all, but only some.
Click to expand...
This sounds right to me but is predestination really a church dogma?
 
Christian_Unity said:
Sounds like basic Calvinism to me 🙂
Click to expand...
The Catholic and Calvinist views on predestination have much in common. However, there are Calvinists who have read into their TULIP paradigm the thought that free will doesn’t exist, or that God actively predestines people to hell regardless of any demerit, and this is where it goes wrong. Catholic teaching on predestination makes it clear that God always respects a person’s free will, even in the elect.
 
porthos11 said:
Yes it is. It is de fide that God elects certain people to eternal blessedness and ensures that this happens. It is not permitted for any Catholic to deny this.
Click to expand...
So God predestines people to heaven and hell? So if I’m not elect why should I be trying?
 
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