Predestination

[JoeyWarren]

The Bible says that they cannot…

Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

My signature says it all…

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

The Golden Chain cannot be broken.

Where is this “Golden Chain” referred to in Scripture? Or is it just a tradition of man?

 

[mikeledes]

Here are some interesting links on Catholic predestination:

thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm

romancatholicism.org/akin-tulip.htm

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

On Molinism:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_knowledge

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

It is important to point out the root of this error is that Calvinists believe God predestined Adam to sin in the sense Adam had no choice but to sin.
This is simply unacceptable in Catholicism.

If God does not incorporate free will in His plan of salvation, then He is directly reponsible for sin. In order for God’s decree to save the elect and the damn the reprobate to be executed, one important event had to occur, namely, the Fall of Man. If God decreed the salvation of the elect and the damnation of the reprobate without reference to any future event or foreseen sin especially the fall - which at this point is a future event - then he must have directly caused the fall in order for his plan to be accomplished. Man had to fall into sin in order to make it possible to damn the reprobate and save the elect. So that would make Him directly responsible for the sin of Adam. Now if God allowed or *permitted * Adam to sin, then Adam must have had free will.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

The following three beliefs are upheld by all Catholic theologians on predestnation:

(1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Ani_Ibi]

… Man had to fall into sin in order to make it possible to damn the reprobate and save the elect…

Wasn’t Adam saved?

 

[Linkowski]

Of course God draws us by His grace before we can be saved. However, we also have to draw near to God with our free will, our choice. Calvinists are fond of only pointing out the verses that support God drawing us near without showing our free will choice to choose Him or deny Him.

How do you explain Mark 8:34-37?..
“He [Jesus] summoned the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it. What profit is there for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? What could one give in exchange for his life?”

**Jesus summoned “the crowd” with His disciples which would have been made up of believers and NON believers, so why would Jesus ask those whom were predestined to hell to “take up your cross and follow Me?” It would have been futile.

***When Jesus says “Whoever wishes to come after Me” “whoever wishes to save his life?” How could Jesus ask anyone to save their life if the are predestined unto hell?
Jesus is speaking to everyone present and Mark nowhere says it is only the elect.

Our will can be influenced…but this drawing is an effectual drawing and does not trump our will…

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

It is just like Romans 8:30…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This calling in Romans 8:30 is an effectual call and not just a general call. Why…because this call is effectual in producing justification and final glorification. Did Joseph and Mary have free will when they were to go to Bethlehem? They have a will but they were caused, ultimately by God, to go so that Micah 5:2 might be fulfilled. God causes what His counsel and plan have decreed. Our will included - all foreordained of God and hard to grasp as a finite human being.

 

[Linkowski]

this actualy refutes you point, Peter here recognize that even if you are ‘chosen’ by God, you still have to “pratice these things” so that “you will never stumble” (in other words they still have the free will to practice these things, or they can choose not to)

Again Peter didn’t say. "well you have been chosen by God, so you can’t be ‘unregenerate’ or he didnt say " God has predistined you to never stumble. "

The elect do stumble and we are, as elect, to examine ourselves. This is to keep us from having a proud faith (which is an oxymoron) as is spelled out in Romans 11. This scripture is designed, just as all of the warnings in scripture are designed, to be a mens of keeping the elect. There is a fear that we ought to have…we are to love God AND to fear God…Phil 2:12…God is so loving and kind and merciful - yet there is a reverent awe and realization of the incredible power of God that we ought to have as well.

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Pophead]

Fortunately I’m not a wolf-snake-pig-sheep-marmot

I’m a man

Whatzat ?

 

[mikeledes]

Our will can be influenced…but this drawing is an effectual drawing and does not trump our will…

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

It is just like Romans 8:30…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This calling in Romans 8:30 is an effectual call and not just a general call. Why…because this call is effectual in producing justification and final glorification. Did Joseph and Mary have free will when they were to go to Bethlehem? They have a will but they were caused, ultimately by God, to go so that Micah 5:2 might be fulfilled. God causes what His counsel and plan have decreed. Our will included - all foreordained of God and hard to grasp as a finite human being.

Hi Linkowski! Did God cause Adam’s sin in order to accomplish His plan?

God Bless,
Michael
Michael

 

[Pophead]

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Romans 12: 1, 2

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Pophead.

 

[mikeledes]

The elect do stumble and we are, as elect, to examine ourselves. This is to keep us from having a proud faith (which is an oxymoron) as is spelled out in Romans 11. This scripture is designed, just as all of the warnings in scripture are designed, to be a mens of keeping the elect. There is a fear that we ought to have…we are to love God AND to fear God…Phil 2:12…God is so loving and kind and merciful - yet there is a reverent awe and realization of the incredible power of God that we ought to have as well.

Why are warnings necessary to “keep the elect” if election is completely work of God and those who are of the elect are infallibly saved? If a warning cannot happen, is God using lies as scare tactics, knowing that failure to heed a warning will not produce the effect He said it would? For example, you have the following warning in Hebrews 12:25

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,

Then you have Galatians 1:6

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

And turning away from God for a different gospel is not a serious sin? We also read in Galatians 5:4

**4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. **

Turning away from God for a false gospel results in being severed from Christ and a fall from grace. That sounds pretty serious to me. Or how about:

Romans 14:15, 20

15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.

Compare that with 1 Corinthians 8:9-10

9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Is Paul lying when he says a person can destroy the work of God and cause a weak brother for whom Christ died to perish? If this were not possible, why would Saint Paul say this?

1 Timothy 3:6

**6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. **

So a Christian can never become conceited? Or is Saint Paul also lying in this case as well?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pophead]

Hi Linkowski! Did God cause Adam’s sin in order to accomplish His plan?

God Bless,
Michael

Did God cause Pharoah’s hardening ?

Pophead.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

He did not “predestine” sin…he foreordained it…He allowed it to happen. Not only that, He planned redemption before the foundation of the world as well. He foreloved a people for himself and predestines them to salvation by calling and justifying them. This is not in accordance with the works nor with their will…Romans chapter nine makes this very clear.

You spent exactly one sentence dealing with my claims (that you believe God caused Adam to sin).
Your response however is “He allowed it” which we both know is twisting of the facts. It is Catholics who believe God allowed it, precisely because Adam had free will and God wouldnt violate it. You (Reformed/Calvinists) believe He “allowed” in the sense God “withheld His grace” (as the popular saying goes) and Adam basically turned into a rock reacting to gravity (it could only go down down down).

It is ironic how often Protestants will go at lengths to rephrase and paint a different picture of things when it is us Catholics who supposedly have it all wrong.

Worse still is a sheep who behaves like a [snake-wolf-pig-dog variety]…bad company corrupts good conduct etc.

You dont have in mind those like in 2 Pt 2:1 (v20ff) do you?
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves
These men were in fact “ransomed” as the passage clearly says.

Further you mention “bad company corrupts good conduct”? That doesnt make sense for you because the “true believers” can never be corrupted.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Did God cause Pharoah’s hardening ?

Pophead.

Yes He did, but if you read the details it is clear the author never meant to say Pharaoh had no free will here, for example Ex 8:15:
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Other passages along these lines are “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts” (Ps 95:7, Heb 3:7, 3:15, 4:7) . This was originally spoken to the Jews who grumbled and God turned around and punished them. The correct understanding is both God and the man’s free will play a role in the “hardening”.

Now, this time answer OUR question clearly and directly regarding God causing Adam to sin.

 

[Pophead]

**Romans 12: 1, 2 **

I beseech you therefore, brethren,** by the mercies of God**, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Pophead.

Just a little something from the late great planet Cauvin…(I have deleted any inappropriate words from his commentary…we are not living in the 1500’s anymore…I hope ??? )

I therefore beseech you by the mercies (miserationes —compassions) of God, etc.

We know that unholy men, in order to gratify the flesh, anxiously lay hold on whatever is set forth in Scripture respecting the infinite goodness of God; and hypocrites also, as far as they can, maliciously darken the knowledge of it, as though the grace of God extinguished the desire for a godly life, and opened to audacity the door of sin.

But this exhortation teaches us, that until men really apprehend how much they owe to the mercy of God, they will never with a right feeling worship him, nor be effectually stimulated to fear and obey him. It is enough for the Pharisees],** if they can extort by terror some sort of forced obedience, I know not what. But Paul, that he might bind us to God, not by servile fear, but by the voluntary and cheerful love of righteousness, allures us by the sweetness of that favor, by which our salvation is effected; and at the same time he reproaches us with ingratitude, except we, after having found a Father so kind and bountiful, do strive in our turn to dedicate ourselves wholly to him. **

And what Paul says, in thus exhorting us, ought to have more power over us, inasmuch as he excels all others in setting forth the grace of God.

Iron indeed must be the heart which is not kindled by the doctrine which has been laid down into love towards God, whose kindness towards itself it finds to have been so abounding.

Where then are they who think that all exhortations to a holy life are nullified, if the salvation of men depends on the grace of God alone, since by no precepts, by no sanctions, is a pious mind so framed to render obedience to God, as by a serious meditation on the Divine goodness towards it?

We may also observe here the benevolence of the Apostle’s spirit, — that he preferred to deal with the faithful by admonitions and friendly exhortations rather than by strict commands; for he knew that he could prevail more with the teachable in this way than in any other.

This does refer back to Romans 9, and the idea of the kindness of God in allowing the reprobate to even have a life, and not be destroyed in the womb. They are granted the blessing of a life on this earth that the property of those in Christ (meek, pure in heart, those to whom righteousness has been (name removed by moderator)uted)

Ummm…no Aummm

 

[Pophead]

Further you mention “bad company corrupts good conduct”? That doesnt make sense for you because the “true believers” can never be corrupted.

True believers can never be corrupted ?

Let’s put it another way then. Sheep fall off cliffs, hang out with company that is not alway savoury, are in danger of being influenced to do stuff that is snake, wolf, pig, dog type, and should they be tempted and led astray, they might join a rival wolf gang who dress like sheep for a time, that is until they hear the sound of the Shepherd’s voice.

 

[Pophead]

Yes He did…

Pharoah hardened his heart because He was a snake-wolf-pig-dog type and not one of the Lord’s little lambs.

Now, this time answer OUR question clearly and directly regarding God causing Adam to sin.

I shall attempt to answer ye, to the best of my ability.

<><

Was it not the Lord God who introduced a very specific law ?

Was it not the Lord God who allowed the serpent access to the garden of Eden ?

Was it not the Lord God who did not stop the serpent from tempting Eve ?

<><

 

[Catholic_Dude]

True believers can never be corrupted ?

Let’s put it another way then. Sheep fall off cliffs, hang out with company that is not alway savoury, are in danger of being influenced to do stuff that is snake, wolf, pig, dog type, and should they be tempted and led astray, they might join a rival wolf gang who dress like sheep for a time, that is until they hear the sound of the Shepherd’s voice.

So basically if you are a professing Christian and you find yourself turning to a life of sin you have nothing to worry about?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I shall attempt to answer ye, to the best of my ability.

<><

Was it not the Lord God who introduced a very specific law ?

Was it not the Lord God who allowed the serpent access to the garden of Eden ?

Was it not the Lord God who did not stop the serpent from tempting Eve ?

<><

1)God did introduce a very specific law: “Adam DO NOT eat”. Unless Adam had the capability to chose not to eat then it is as if God was speaking to a rock.

2 & 3 ) Allowing the serpent access and to tempt does not mean Adam and Eve did not have free will. Nor does it mean God was out to tempt Adam.

You on the otherhand DONT believe Adam had free will, you believe He introduced a law so that Adam could and would fall, you believe God sent the serpent with a mission, and God tempted Adam through the serpent.
VERY different from the Catholic understanding.

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

It is important to point out the root of this error is that Calvinists believe God predestined Adam to sin in the sense Adam had no choice but to sin.
This is simply unacceptable in Catholicism.

So true…what God would willingly want a person to sin or deliberately try and trick a person into sinning. Not the one born of the virgin Mary !!!