Pregnant Student Banned from Graduation, Walks

[Brad]

TPJCatholic:

fix,

I agree and I will add that proper Catholic formation comes from the parents, the Church and the Catholic schools. If all three of those legs work together, we can see some truly Catholic kids raised. Kids need to know there is no ambiguity about these matters, that they must not commit mortal sin and when they do they must be repentant and receive confession. Those are absolutes, not wishy-washy opinions.

Yes. They should be repentant and receive confession. And if the priest says the penance is missing graduation, she should accept it. The school is not the priest.

 

[Trelow]

Penny Plain:

Wow, you take really good notes.

I remember things well.

I find myself reluctantly agreeing with you. I do not think that I have ever succumbed to anyone solely because they “pooed” on my head. In fact, should the situation ever arise in the context of a theological argument, I would think it would make me less likely to succumb.

Lol, I apologize for the comment, it was way out of line.

What a disturbing image.

Quite.

I agree that the school is a legitimate authority. I do not think it acted appropriately, not least because it lied about its reasons for excluding the student.

I certainly do not think that questioning a legitimate authority’s inappropriate actions promotes dissent, libertineism, anarchy, jaywalking, and whatever other societal ills you attribute to it. It promotes accountability and good judgment on the part of the authority, something that is often lacking from institutions (such as schools) that are accustomed to blind obedience.

I think that the correlation between disrespect for authority in one arena can easily spill over into others. It all stems from the sin of Liberalism.

I am not aware that the school claims infalibility or that it was speaking on a matter of faith or morals. In fact, it claimed to be speaking on a matter of “safety.” Would the Pope himself claim infallibility if he, I don’t know, ordered bishops to install sprinkler systems or non-skid linoleum?

The school is a legitimate authority. Even though it is not infallible, simply because it is an institution of authority as long as it adheres to the stipulation put forth in CCC 1903

Does this mean you are going to come to my trailer and poo on my head? I’d rather direct you to my mother’s garden. I am low on shampoo, and she could use the fertilizer.

I’ll take that into consideration, by the way it’s taco night.

 

[felra]

Penny Plain:

I agree that the school is a legitimate authority. I do not think it acted appropriately, not least because it lied about its reasons for excluding the student.

**I certainly do not think that questioning a legitimate authority’s inappropriate actions **promotes dissent, libertineism, anarchy, jaywalking, and whatever other societal ills you attribute to it. It promotes accountability and good judgment on the part of the authority, something that is often lacking from institutions (such as schools) that are accustomed to blind obedience.

This teenager’s “questioning” of her High School’s legitimate authority entailed a public act of blatant disobediance and defiance; a very poor example to her peers of what is Christ-like and counter productive to promoting accountability to those having legitimate authority over her. Her “questioning” will only get lost on the means that she employs; not a very convincing approach.

 

[fix]

Brad:

Promotion of sin and sinning are two differnt things. I don’t think we know which category she fell into. I am assuming the latter only. If I am wrong, then the school should have expelled her.

We do not know yet you and others are taking the position the school was wrong.

 

[fix]

Brad:

Yes. They should be repentant and receive confession. And if the priest says the penance is missing graduation, she should accept it. The school is not the priest.

I can’t follow your logic. Why would a priest impose such a thing? The school is in charge of these discipline and conduct matters.

 

[fix]

Brad:

I think this is a bit of an over-generalization. I’m not saying all standards should be eliminated (although in many Catholic schools, they are); I’m saying this particular idea by the school was not so hot. I don’t think this policy was in their handbook. I don’t know if you have surveyed Catholic schools lately but a good many of them don’t discipline school violations and promote immorality through dances etc and also don’t teach the faith properly. Let’s focus on what can be controlled as general policy and teaching. The school’s rules of conduct cannot include behavior outside of school. It’s not practical and impossible to be fair when all parents are not on board. Fairness is an issue, especially with schoolchildren - it is important for credibility and consistency, which encourges faithfulness. Johnny may be a bad seed outside of school but he sure will be good inside of school.

I am not a lawyer, but in the 1970s in my Catholic HS out of school conduct was the subject of school policy in many areas. As an example if we had a Holy day off and any student went to a public school in session and caused any problems they were disciplined the next day in the Catholic HS.

If one got pregnant, they were taken out of school. Now, perhaps today there would be a legal action brought to stop such things, but that in no way changes the morality of or authority of those in charge to regulate student conduct.

 

[gelsbern]

snoopy:

Do the boy’s parents need to be horse whipped for not teaching their son morals? I don’t believe the double standards.

Absolutely, it takes 2 to tango.

As was said above, it’s as if, people turn a blind eye on the root of what caused all this.

In the past there was a great shame attached to, unwed pregnancy, divorce, spousal abuse, and many many other types of things that are now days considered part of normal life. It’s high time, in my opinion to bring this back to society.

 

[Catholic2003]

Brad:

It is a rare event but I disagree here. Catholic schools are in the business of providing Catholic education, not hiding the sins of it’s students as though they do not exist.

Thanks for this comment, Brad! I’ve been in a depression about this all day, wondering (for the first time since I became Catholic) whether I did the right thing in joining the Church. Baptists don’t even allow dancing (at least my old church didn’t), but even Jerry Falwell can figure out that we are called to hate the sin but love the sinner.

felra:

The actions and comments by this student and her mother evidence a lack of humility—a replacing of pride with shame as previous posters have observed. I do not recall the woman caught in adultery grabbing the limelight shortly after her forgiveness—I am sure that she was about the business of re-tooling her person and life in greater conformity with Christ.

I’m not trying to justify the girl’s actions, neither her fornication nor her defiance. My point is that the school’s actions are so completely un-Christian that it truly makes me wonder how they can claim to belong to the One True Church.
Penny Plain:

It said it wasn’t allowing her to participate for “safety reasons.” What does that mean? Well, for starters, it means that the school either (a) wasn’t concerned about her “parading her sin” before the school community or (b) lied. Pick one.

Exactly. And as any examination of conscience will tell you, lying about something means you know it was wrong.

fix:

You keep bringing up confession. Do you have more information than was stated in the news article?

No, I have no further information. Do I take it that you would change your position if it could be established that the girl did in fact receive absolution?

TPJCatholic:

The girl, the boy and the student body at large needs to know that forincation is a mortal sin and that it is not acceptable behaivor…

They also need to know that masterbation is a mortal sin. So, statistically speaking, none of the boys should have been allowed to participate in the graduation ceremony.

There is absolutely no theological justification in singling out this particular sin for exemption from the forgiveness of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Only prudery.

gelsbern:

We need to go back to ostracizing those who are involved in fornication, if we just simply include them, we encourage their behaviour.

So I guess the girl shouldn’t have been allowed to attend the prom either? Or any other school events? What are you afraid of?

Sally: Look, there’s an unmarried pregnant girl.
Jenny: And she’s not being struck down by lightning like sister said she would be.
Sally: Let’s all go out and have wild sex right now!

 

[fix]

Catholic2003:

Thanks for this comment, Brad! I’ve been in a depression about this all day, wondering (for the first time since I became Catholic) whether I did the right thing in joining the Church. Baptists don’t even allow dancing (at least my old church didn’t), but even Jerry Falwell can figure out that we are called to hate the sin but love the sinner.

How is prohibiting one from a ceremony hating?

I’m not trying to justify the girl’s actions, neither her fornication nor her defiance. My point is that the school’s actions are so completely un-Christian that it truly makes me wonder how they can claim to belong to the One True Church.

This is way out there. What is unChristian about codes of conduct and disciplinary measures?

No, I have no further information. Do I take it that you would change your position if it could be established that the girl did in fact receive absolution?

You introduced this item as if it were a fact.

They also need to know that masterbation is a mortal sin. So, statistically speaking, none of the boys should have been allowed to participate in the graduation ceremony.

Do you have evidence of who committed these acts and in a public way?

There is absolutely no theological justification in singling out this particular sin for exemption from the forgiveness of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Only prudery.

How do you know this is the only moral turpitude singled out? Have you read the school guidlines and code of conduct?

 

[Trelow]

She knew what would happen before she decided to take her pants off.

From their handbook.
saintjudeschool.com/academics.aspx

Student Pregnancy

If a female student becomes pregnant, the Guidance Department and Administration must be notified immediately. The student will be required to bring a doctor’s note indicating her time of delivery. Medical safety, psychological wellbeing, and social issues will be taken into consideration when deciding how long a student will attend classes or extracurricular activities, if/when she needs to begin home schooling, and when she may return to school after the delivery of her child. Both the female student and the father of the child (if he attends St. Jude Educational Institute) and their parents/guardians will meet with the Principal, and Guidance Counselor to determine the need for counseling and special support.

 

[TPJCatholic]

Penny,

It makes no difference if the girl was Catholic or not, the point is she was attending a Catholic school and there is simply a higher level of expectation from such a school, then there is from completely secularized public schools. If the girl’s parents wanted a public school setting, then they should not have sent her to a private Catholic school.

I think what you are missing is that once she became pregnant, her sins were no longer a private matter. In most cases our sins (and yes we obviously all sin) are quite private and in most cases the school would not even know if a given student had sex or not. In this case the girl became pregnant and fornication is quite obvious…since her sin became public, the school had no choice but to take action. If they did nothing, that would have been a scandal. I further think you are focusing only on the situation of the pregnant girl and not on the rest of the student body or on the task the school administrators are given. Do not forget that Jesus warned us not to cause the little ones to stumble, and that school cannot let such a public sin go on disciplined because that can lead to other students thinking it is okay to fornicate and get pregnant.

I pray for the girl and the boy and the baby, I applaud the school and pray more schools for follow their example.

 

[TPJCatholic]

Penny,

She should be banned from the sacraments unless she refused to repent and confess.

No person should be banned from Mass, yet no person should receive the Eucharist if they are not in a state of grace.

I am assuming, and hoping, the girl went to confession (along with the boy/father). If that did happen, then neither student should be kept from Church or the sacraments. However, just as we know many of us may go to purgatory to purify our souls, likewise when we commit certain sins here there are going to be consequences for those actions.

In a school setting, living by example is one of the ways the school teaches. A girl who fornicates is not living by example. It does not mean she is worse then us, or that she is some horrible person, or any such nonsense. All if means is that she is a sinner like the rest of us and that she happen to commit a grave sin that was very clearly a public sin and scandal. The school did the right thing, if they did nothing they would be accused of not being a Catholic school.

 

[TPJCatholic]

Brad,

I am glad to hear that you woudl take action if onen of your kids fornicated, I wish more Catholic parents would do that. However, because you would be a good parent in that scenario, in no way negates the school’s role in this matter. They are formal teachers of the faith and they have to respond to these situations. Telling a student not to attend graduation is “nothing” compared to the gravity of the sin commited. It was a very light action taken.

 

[TPJCatholic]

Catholic,

No one here is saying that the sin of fornication is somehow outside the sacrament of reconciliation or outside of forgiveness.

I hope and pray the girl and the boy have gone to confession. This issue (as I have said so many times) is more about the student body, then it is about the two fornicators. The school has a responsibility to act whenever it knows of a situation like this.

You comment about masturbation is lude and beneath the level of any good Catholic conversation.

 

[felra]

Catholic2003:

I’m not trying to justify the girl’s actions, neither her fornication nor her defiance. My point is that the school’s actions are so completely un-Christian that it truly makes me wonder how they can claim to belong to the One True Church.

This sounds like an over statement. The school’s authority should have been more consistent in likewise sanctioning the father of the child.

The scandal of the day would have been if the school had ignored the obvious evidence of serious sin and said/done nothing to the student body/Church community. That would be totally irresponsible, wimpy and an abdication of their responsibility to publically communicate and uphold Catholic values. There is enough muddled waters in secular society, why risk counfounding the impressionable entrusted to our care. The article did not indicate that either student made some sort of public contrition to renounce their manifest sin (rather, it appears quite the contrary). The issue is more than about this student’s feelings or “rights” to an education/commencement ceremony.

It takes moral fortitude to publically admonish sinful actions that have a public import while loving the sinner for those of the same “household” of God. St. Paul certainly recommended this,* (Colossians,* *Chapter 3:15-16). *

 

[TPJCatholic]

BRad,

The Priest hearing her confession (unless her is a school administrator) has no say in anything about graduation, that is a school matter.

 

[fix]

Trelow:

She knew what would happen before she decided to take her pants off.

From their handbook.
saintjudeschool.com/academics.aspx

Student Pregnancy

If a female student becomes pregnant, the Guidance Department and Administration must be notified immediately. The student will be required to bring a doctor’s note indicating her time of delivery. Medical safety, psychological wellbeing, and social issues will be taken into consideration when deciding how long a student will attend classes or extracurricular activities, if/when she needs to begin home schooling, and when she may return to school after the delivery of her child. Both the female student and the father of the child (if he attends St. Jude Educational Institute) and their parents/guardians will meet with the Principal, and Guidance Counselor to determine the need for counseling and special support.

Thank you. I have said many times that Catholic schools have a code of conduct and we do not know how it was violated in this case. We do not know what was said by the school to the parent and student and what was requested of them. All we know is that the student fornicated and disobeyed the school authorities.

 

[Brad]

TPJCatholic:

BRad,

The Priest hearing her confession (unless her is a school administrator) has no say in anything about graduation, that is a school matter.

The priest has full and complete say, acting in the person of Jesus Christ, to administer penance for sin that he feels appropriate.

The school does not have the right to prevent a student from graduation that has achieve the necessary requirements of graduation unless that student is a danger to others.

As I said before, there are other means of addressing the situation that may have worked better. I just think the school made the wrong choice.

And then the girl proceeded to make the wrong choice as well.

To me, it is just another sad case of not understanding the awesome-ness of faith in Jesus Christ and His Church. The mercy and love is bountiful for those that understand and live it. Most do not.

 

[fix]

Brad:

The school does not have the right to prevent a student from graduation that has achieve the necessary requirements of graduation unless that student is a danger to others.

Brad,

The school does have the right to prohibit one from the ceremony. The diploma was given.

 

[TPJCatholic]

BRad,

I do not agree. A Priest who has nothing to do with the school has not business telling a person not to attend…that Priest would not have any way of knowing the intimate details of how the school operates. The Priest can suggest that the person not attend, but he cannot properly had out a penance using graduation. Example: If a person commits adultery in the workplace, and then confesses to a Priest, the Priest can certainly give spiritual direction and suggest the person leave that company–yet the Priest would be stepping way outside their responsibility if he said the person HAD to quit their job as a form of penance.

The school did NOT prevent the girl from graduating…they prevented her from the ceremony…that is fully within their rights.