Pregnant Teen Catholic Graduation

[fix]

Brad:

I didn’t really want to get back involved but I feel compelled to (at least a little bit).

The abortion issue IS relevant here. Let’s assume the school is teaching authentic Catholic teaching. If so, they taught and administered the sacrament of Confession (of course with the pastor). In so doing, they taught of reconcilliation and forgiveness if one turns to God and is sorry for their sins. That is the way God operates. If you are sorry and truly repentant, God forgives.
But the schools says here… you are forgiven UNLESS we can see visible signs of fornication - that CANNOT be forgiven unless you are publically chastized and punished. ALL other sins (including fornicating without being caught), are ok, but not this one sin under this one condition. This message, I assure you, sends a message that the school values that they are imaged as a school full of saints MORE than they value sanctity of life. This is likely not the message they thought about, but it IS the message many of these kids (and unforntunately, not well-formed conscience adults) will receive.

A message sent by me to you is not good if you perceive it to be something totally different than what I planned. That is why it is critical to be crystal clear, consistent, and without a hint of bias when implementing policies, ESPECIALLY with children - and this is what we have here - children.

Many here are acting as if these are rebellious 40-something Catholics. These are kids and it DOES make a difference how you teach the faith to kids.

The Church was cautious in what message She sent out in condemning Hitler because the Church wanted Jews and Catholics to be spared. The Church often needs to be cautious about how Her teachings are presented because of the impact they have on the faithful.

Two threads are too much. One is enough.

You are assuming a lot. Do we know if other students were banned for other reasons this year, or in past years? It seems you think that the school must never have any proscriptions against this particular offense?

The school may be saying you are forgiven by God and by us, yet there are still consequences to your actions and from your sin that must be paid.

Beyond that, we just do not know enough for all the conclusions you draw. The girl in question may have many other problems and a difficult history. You have heard her side and part of the school’s side. I can’t help what folks perceive, but I have been around long enough not to to believe all I read.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

Alan -

You’ve stated your case quite well on this thread.

I agree that the punishment was somewhat unrelated and probably by the wrong people, if, in fact we are not missing other details in the story such as the girl being obstinant and displaying terrible behavior throughout the school year (I still think, in that case that she should not have achieved necessary requirements for graduation if that were the case - giving her the diploma AND blocking her from the ceremony is somewhat of a Catholic PC error in my book either way you slice it)

Dear Brad,

Thank you for the backup. My fingers were flying trying to keep up!

Actually, I wouldn’t mind if they prevented her from walking if she were being a big pain and obstinate and everything, and in fact she might have been. This amounts to keeping it from being a public spectacle.

My problem, as I think yours is, is in the idea that we must appear to be “tough on crime” and therefore cannot show weakness by not punishing the girl – and then let that mentality trump any cause-effect relationship.

As you said, it is about abortion. Actions have effects, whether they are the ones we desire or not.

You have touched on another issue, though, that might make a good thread all on its own. This is something that I started to notice about Catholic schools, and is absolutely the message that certain kids are getting:

This message, I assure you, sends a message that the school values that they are imaged as a school full of saints MORE than they value sanctity of life. This is likely not the message they thought about, but it IS the message many of these kids (and unforntunately, not well-formed conscience adults) will receive.

AAlan

 

[TPJCatholic]

alan and brad,

Why do we place murderers in jail?

 

[felra]

AlanFromWichita:

Those are good observations. Do they also punish the women in ways totally unrelated to the sin, such as denying them a n academic diploma or making them sit in detention?

Alan

Not really “punish”, but for some of these post abortive women, they help them to face the pain of their sin by having them write a letter to their aborted baby to express their sorrow and seek forgiveness (akin to seeking to make amends)–a therapeutic release and a means to encounter and experience the reality of God’s healing love and forgiveness.

Bye the way, denying a privilege can be a just and useful way to rectify a sinner to the ways of better living, or at least making them consider the gravity of their actions (parents do it all the time)–it depends on how the punishment/consequence is delivered and received.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Hey all,

I am enjoying this thread immensely, but I really should go do some things that I am responsible for!

I’ll just touch on this one just a bit, then hopefully pull myself away from this forum for a while. Whew.

TPJCatholic:

==> So, you are saying that the one incident erases all other revelation? Wow, you really are good, though that sound particularly Protestant at its core.

No, I’m saying the one incident proves that worldly authorities are allowed to have mercy and not just perform like robots following orders.

==> You site one example of Jesus’ teachings, yet you ignore the many times that Jesus taught that there are consequences to our actions…that sin separates us from Him, that sin leads a person down the wrong path. You seem to conveniently ignore that Jesus left a Church in order for people to learn these things, and that Jesus’ Word gives authority to legitimate authorties for rebuking and disipline. It is sooooooooo easy to be a verse plucker, yet it is far more difficult to consider everything Christ taught and it is even more difficult for some people to realize that the Church has been given authority by Christ.

Verse Plucker. I kind of like that. That would have made a good forum handle. Maybe I’ll add “VP” to my signature!

I’m not sure what you mean about Jesus leaving the church. Can you point me to that story?

Yes, Jesus taught there are consequences for our actions, but he came to help us avoid those consequences, not to ensure that we endure not only natural consequences, but human-prescribed consequences.

Alan: He died so we would not have to endure the punishment for our sins,

==> Wrong! He died so that we “might” not have to receive punishment for our sins. The simply truth is, we can all fall and loe our salvation…we can all sin, we all do sin, we all must turn back to Christ every single time we sin. Jesus gave no unconditional promises…again your position seems very Protestant in nature.

OK, I don’t think we disagree here. He came so that we would not “have” to endure punishment. You’re saying that doesn’t mean that we won’t endure punishment? (or without the double negative, that we still might endure punishment?) If so then I’m with you on this.

==> Nope. Are there any examples of Jesus saying “hey, go sin all you want, because my saving work on the cross means you can kill people or commit adultery or fornicate or whatever there are no consequences of any kind?”

I can’t think of any examples that use those exact words. Seems like Paul had some things to say about continuing to operate under the Law when we had been freed from the law, but I’m getting too tired to look it up and see if it even applies here. Also, I don’t think Christ’s saving work on the cross really did anything to prevent us from temporal effects of sin, so it’s not like He made sin OK and pain-free or anything like that.

I honestly mean no insult and apologize if you take offense with anything I have written…it just seems lean on a false Gospel.

I can accept that, and I take no offense because I perceive you are not speaking in an offensive tone. I thrive on discussion with people who disagree with me, when they can stick it out and not just start calling names and stuff. Sometimes I even change my own positions – though it may be hours or years later.

As far as I know you are trying to help me understand something, and/or to help other possible lurkers, and not to prove yourself right or win an argument or insult me.

Maybe I need to pray that I am of similar motives.

One thing I can’t do, however, is “agree to disagree” on things like this. At the risk of going off track, I hate that term. I may concede to leave an argument in disagreement, but never agree to disagree on anything this important.

Oh, pardon me if I do sound a bit Protestant. I was a good little cradle Catholic who went to Catholic school with good, obedient and strict parents until I moved away from home and then wham! Paul turned to Saul. It was actually Protestants who helped bring me back to Church, so I do give them some credit and possibly picked up a few things they said here and there. That said, so far I haven’t found a Protestant minister I can listen to for more than maybe 20 minutes without having the desire to roll my eyes at something they say.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

TPJCatholic:

alan and brad,

Why do we place murderers in jail?

I like them in jail because I’m afraid of them.

I feel sorry for people who want them in jail because we are mad at them, but that seems to be the societally popular sentiment. I feel sorry for them because their anger will hurt them, not the person in jail.

Alan

 

[TPJCatholic]

alan,

Thank you for perceiving that I am trying to make a point. Simply put, we are to love everyone as Jesus taught, and we have no right to judge anyone’s soul…yet Jesus did teach there are consequences for we do. To watch people commit mortal sin and yet do nothing is the most unkind thing we can do. I have had to discipline my children, it always breaks my heart, yet it for their good and for the good of the entire family. Likewise, it might seem cold to not let the girl attend graduation, but it is a loving act that is good for her and for the entire school.

Have a good break away from here.

 

[Brad]

fix:

Two threads are too much. One is enough.

No kidding.

fix:

You are assuming a lot. Do we know if other students were banned for other reasons this year, or in past years? It seems you think that the school must never have any proscriptions against this particular offense?

I am doing some assuming by I think we all are. In fact, most of our decisions are based on assumptions, some more informed than others. As you said, we can’t believe all we read so we have to assume some things when we don’t know all the facts. As I’ve said earlier, and Alan has also mentioned, there are some problems in our Catholic schools - I am assuming some of these problems may exist here based on the diploma being given but the graduation ceremony being selectively denied by the school. These are inconsistent actions. Either you grauduate or you don’t. You can punish violators of school policy but you can’t hide the unattractive graduates.

To elaborate a little, the problems I see in some Catholic schools (and I am just beginning to understand these problems) include schools trying to advertise as though they are different and better than other schools while at the same time turn a blind eye or even offer an accepting word towards actions in the school that I consider to be be against Catholicism. In an effort to keep and attract parents to the school, they will exaggerate the truth about what they offer while they are lacking in discipline, moral standards, and Catholic truth.

I don’t know how exactly where this particular school stands on the spectrum.

fix:

The school may be saying you are forgiven by God and by us, yet there are still consequences to your actions and from your sin that must be paid.

I think consequences are given (outside of the confessional) by parents, teachers etc. so that sin is not repeated again. In order for it to be effective, it must match the crime. I don’t think this type of punishment does the trick.

 

[Brad]

TPJCatholic:

alan and brad,

Why do we place murderers in jail?

To prevent them from committing further crimes. In an ideal world, the punishment fits the crime. Ultimately the judge makes this decision. When the punishment does not fit the crime, the criminal is not deterred. In this case, we have the wrong judge (school vs. parents) and the wrong punishment (symbolic vs material).

 

[Brad]

TPJCatholic:

alan,

Thank you for perceiving that I am trying to make a point. Simply put, we are to love everyone as Jesus taught, and we have no right to judge anyone’s soul…yet Jesus did teach there are consequences for we do. To watch people commit mortal sin and yet do nothing is the most unkind thing we can do. I have had to discipline my children, it always breaks my heart, yet it for their good and for the good of the entire family. Likewise, it might seem cold to not let the girl attend graduation, but it is a loving act that is good for her and for the entire school.

Have a good break away from here.

You are right. Mortal sin MUST have consequences. A PARENT is the most appropriate person to apply those consequences.

Likewise, the school should not punish a kid for slashing tires on non-school property and non-school time. But the town and the parents should.

 

[TPJCatholic]

brad,

The CATHOLIC school is paid to make sure the faith is taught and defended within the schol, environment. Therefore, the school administrators AND the parents have strong roles in this situation.

Let us say that a given public school student was a drug user and the parents sent their child to a Catholic school with the hopes that the kid will straighten-up. Yet, once in that school the kid continues to use drugs. Are you seriously saying the school has nothing to say about that, that it is only up to the parents?

 

[TPJCatholic]

Brad,

Thank you, it seems we are now in agreement.

You correctly state that the school has no business disciplining students for things outside the school’s reponsibility and since teaching and defending the faith is within their responsibiliy, it seems clear you now agree that the school was correct. Thanks.

 

[Brad]

TPJCatholic:

brad,

The CATHOLIC school is paid to make sure the faith is taught and defended within the schol, environment. Therefore, the school administrators AND the parents have strong roles in this situation.

Let us say that a given public school student was a drug user and the parents sent their child to a Catholic school with the hopes that the kid will straighten-up. Yet, once in that school the kid continues to use drugs. Are you seriously saying the school has nothing to say about that, that it is only up to the parents?

The school should discipline immediately, promptly, and effectively when an offense is committed at the school or during school-supervised time elsewhere.

Of course a school should punish someone that is high at school or is taking drugs at the school. But the school itself cannot fix a child. This is a huge mistake for parents, thinking if they send their kid to Catholic school then the child will be well. It is the parents that must take full responsibility, no matter where the kid goes to school. I don’t send my kids to public school because of what they might be exposed to, NOT because of what they may do. The latter is my responsibility.

 

[Brad]

TPJCatholic:

Brad,

Thank you, it seems we are now in agreement.

You correctly state that the school has no business disciplining students for things outside the school’s reponsibility and since teaching and defending the faith is within their responsibiliy, it seems clear you now agree that the school was correct. Thanks.

Whereas I would love to agree with you, you overgeneralizing will not get us there.

Slashing tires is a faith issue. But if it’s done outside of school property and not during school time, the school has no jurisdiction to punish the child. Parent’s job every time. The parents are the PRIMARY teachers of both secular and religious education to their children. This is a fundamental church teaching. In fact, this has made me think of another thing the school did wrong. Because the parents are primary, they should have been in agreement with the said punishment before it was enforced.

 

[TPJCatholic]

brad,

We are in complete agreement about parents, and frankly I wish you would drop that element. This is not about the parents, of course they should always be proactively involved in their kids lives.

This issue is about the school and whether or not they have a right to discipline kids for things they do that are a direct offense against the faith and God. Fornication falls into the area of mortal sin and must not be ignored just because the parents will take action. The school has a role, if not then there is not point at all in having Catholic schools.

 

[TPJCatholic]

brad,

If the student slashes tires, chances are the school will never know. Yet, if that same student creates a school scandal his/her actions (slashing tires and bragging about it, etc.), then the school has every right and responsibility to take action. The school does NOT need to get permisision from the parents to invoke school discipline–that is a ridiculous idea and I think if you rethink it you will agree.

BTW, I was merely teasing about you agreeing…I know we are on oppsoite ends of this issue. I feel the parents should act and that the school has a role too–you think that the school has no role in the sins the kids commit no matter how scandalous or how public they are. We will not agree and I feel your opinion, if enacted at Catholic schools, would make those schools meaningless. I would yank my kids from any such school…there is no reason for me to pay tuition for a school that is just another public school.

 

[katherine2]

TPJCatholic:

brad,

This issue is about the school and whether or not they have a right to discipline kids for things they do that are a direct offense against the faith and God.

The proper discipline is debatable. Disciplining the girl and not the boy is not.

 

[TPJCatholic]

katherine,

We really do not need to keep pounding the gender equality nail. I think we all agree that if the school knew who the father is, and if the father is a student at that school, then he should have received the same discipline. There is no question that it takes two to fornicate.

 

[Brad]

TPJCatholic:

brad,

We are in complete agreement about parents, and frankly I wish you would drop that element. This is not about the parents, of course they should always be proactively involved in their kids lives.

This issue is about the school and whether or not they have a right to discipline kids for things they do that are a direct offense against the faith and God. Fornication falls into the area of mortal sin and must not be ignored just because the parents will take action. The school has a role, if not then there is not point at all in having Catholic schools.

I’m sure you wish I would drop one of my key points, but that would make me a bit irrational and I don’t want to go there just yet - let’s wait until the kids are out of the house.

Do you really think it is practical for the school to hand out punishment for each and every mortal sin it discovers among the school population? This is their business?

 

[TPJCatholic]

Brad,

I think the school must monitor their students and if something arises that needs action, they should act. All of the students sin and most of their sins are never known publicly, yet when they do come public or even scandalous, then the school has every right to step in and take action in accord with the Catholic faith.

Schools of all stripes do this everyday.