Premarital Cohabitation Situations - Am I Being Too Harsh?

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Honestly, I think that as long as you stand firm in your beliefs and do not waiver then you will be fine. I admire you for being able to take a stand against what you know to be wrong. Not many people can do that and remain true to what they believe.
 
What are scruples, exactly? I thought that scruples were kind of like thinking everything one did was sinful and not accepting God’s grace/forgiveness after receiving Reconciliation. Is this incorrect? (I certainly don’t have a problem accepting that I have been forgiven for sins confessed.) 😃 Thank you for your concern for me, gmarie!
Your definition of scruples is correct. I would discuss with your priest about not stepping foot in their homes if that decision is scrupulous. You must be careful to weigh your decision. B/c scandal is if you don’t say anything, you have said things. You have to weigh what is more sinful, having other’s gossip about the “scandal you cause” or having family members take a step closer to rejecting the True Faith moreso than they already have. A few confessors of mine had to remind me of the delicate balance.
 
See, I had thought of this, too, except I had thought of Him eating with prostitutes. But then I read something from someone (here on CAF, I think), pointing out that yes, Jesus welcomed prostitutes, but He didn’t go into the brothels to do it. This is what got me thinking, you know? So I thought that keeping my own door open to everyone was okay, while declining an invitation to theirs. Does that make sense?
Jesus went to the home of Matthew and Zaccheus, and ate with them. And in the New Testament times, the tax collector was lower on the social (and sin) scale than was the prostitute!

Not condoning the moral decisions is one thing – and I agree with not staying at the home. But not visiting? Not attending the rehearsal dinner? I think that this is going too far – and may well have the opposite response to what you intend.
 
First of all, be happy they are doing the right thing by getting married instead of just living in their sin. It may not be practical to move out and then move back in right before the wedding. I personally feel that the hotel probably has more sins going on there than the cohabitating couple. So unless you can find a monastery to stay at I think its a wash!
 
He cared about those who cared nothing for God or about religious behavior and In doing so he showed them God’s undying, undeserved, love.
Sometimes, I think I’m reading a different Bible than other people! 😃 I’m not sure I understand or agree with this statement… I thought the Pharisees cared nothing for God, and Jesus admonished their sins. He did admonish out of love, though; maybe that’s kind of what you’re saying?
I would have a hard time with this like you are TrulyBeloved.

Bottom line is that I have a problem with supporting those weddings because the divorce statistics say it all, not only that, people 20, and 30 years ago never would have thought of doing such a thing, so why is it okay now?? I just don’t get it, how would being married feel special if you are living together years before? I am just old fashion I guess…just my :twocents:
Thank you for the empathy, Mamacita. Trained in Family Sociology, I briefly attempted to explain my objections from a secular perspective (since religious arguments never win over the non-religious), but if someone doesn’t want to acknowledge modern social trends, they won’t. All I can do is plant the seed. And pray, of course. 🙂
I know this might sound incredibly naive (and quite possibly not true), but do you know they’re living in sin now? All I get is that they’re living (or planning to live) together. Having a roommate, even one you care about deeply, is not sinful of its nature. Do you KNOW what they’re doing when you’re not there?

Thought so.
I can see how most people probably wouldn’t be able to say with confidence that they were privy to such knowledge, but my sister and I are very close, and she did in fact disclose the facts surrounding this bit of information to me. And because I know the situation now, I have to gently guide her, because I love her.
Being biologically related doesn’t impose any duty on anyone to attend social occasions like weddings.
In my family, being biologically connected obliges you to all sorts of social things. 😃 If you still want to be considered “a good person,” that is.
Honestly, I think that as long as you stand firm in your beliefs and do not waiver then you will be fine. I admire you for being able to take a stand against what you know to be wrong. Not many people can do that and remain true to what they believe.
Mirror, thank you for the compliment! I was starting to feel like quite the heathen rascal for not knowing how to deal with this like a good Catholic.
Putting together reception favors seems like a golden opportunity to talk about anything and everything from the silly to the religious. Talk to your priest, but I think that you’re missing a golden opportunity to evangelize without turning your sister off of the Truth.
and
Not attending the rehearsal dinner? I think that this is going too far – and may well have the opposite response to what you intend.
These reflect my initial thoughts on the situation regarding my sister, but then doubt set in. 😦 I will heed your (and everyone else who agrees with this) advice, provided my priest approves, as well. 👍
First of all, be happy they are doing the right thing by getting married instead of just living in their sin. It may not be practical to move out and then move back in right before the wedding. I personally feel that the hotel probably has more sins going on there than the cohabitating couple. So unless you can find a monastery to stay at I think its a wash!
Of course I am happy they are marrying, but they didn’t start cohabiting until well into the engagement, so it’s not like they’re really “fixing” anything. I don’t think supposed practicality really plays a part in this, I think the decision was based on impatience. Regardless, it was the wrong decision to make, so I am pained for my sister. It has been my experience that oftentimes, doing the right thing is inconvenient in one way or another, but just because something causes temporary difficulty doesn’t mean it’s not worth it. Oh, and that last sentence of yours made me smile. 😉

I want to express appreciation to everyone who contributed to my thread. I am very curious to have my discussion with Father next week, and if required, I will humbly apologize to my family for misinterpreting Church teaching. Forming consciences is hard work, for sure!
 
Sometimes, I think I’m reading a different Bible than other people! 😃
Actually, I think the problem is that there are many people who have become desensitized to mortal sin.

It’s played down as “not that bad” and those who care about doing the right thing are seen as “harsh” or “judgmental”.

We need more people like you Truly, people who will stand up and say “this is wrong”.
 
1ke, thank you so much. I very much respect your opinions and advice. I know I can count on you to be orthodox, honest, and direct. You do me much honor with your compliment.

God bless you!!
 
My take on all of these situations: Politely take a stand, don’t show approval, don’t visit in their homes, but make them welcome in mine. DH says I am being too harsh and restrictive, and that I am turning people off.

I don’t think I forgot anything…

What say you?
I haven’t read the other replies to your quesiton but I support your behavior in all three situations. You have been honest, you are upholding what the Church has asked you to do, you are polite throughout, and you want to remain friends with all involved. You are not “turning people off.” People are rejecting the Church and you are standing by Her. I would advise you to remain tender throughout and continually humble yourself by remembering any times when you’ve been foolish, blind, and sinful, while continuing to stand by the Church founded by a wise God who knows what is best for us.

My only question, for which I would need priestly guidance, is about assembling wedding favors or doing other wedding chores for the cohabitating couple. That *might *be okay, as long as you are not doing it *inside *the cohabitating home, because you are supporting their making a sinful situation right. (Of course, the couple will still need to confess their sins. In fact, if they are fornicating and in a state of mortal sin when they marry, they will be validly married but will not receive the graces associated with the Sacrament until they confess and get their souls into a state of grace.)
 
I’m going to answer your long post with another long post.
I think my fear is one of scandal. Because cohabitation is a public act, I am afraid of causing scandal and making it appear as if I approve of their decisions. I would hate to lead someone away from the Church, but having someone think that Catholics think it’s okay to premaritally cohabit is dangerous, I think, and would do more harm than good.
I am not criticizing you directly, but perhaps there could be room for a little more charity without the appearance of condoning cohabitation, in all three of your situations. Please don’t take anything I say as if it’s said in a spirit of meanness. I am writing out of charity, though I may not sound as gentle as I would like, ok?

Christ Himself was a walking scandal. He talked to a woman [many women, in fact] who wasn’t his wife or relative. (in John 4:27, the disciples asked why he was talking to a woman he did not know – other examples I can’t think of right now).
Situation #1: Brother lives with girlfriend…I have never visited their home, and did not help them move.
Jesus was accused of being a drunkard, a glutton, and even of being possessed. For example, Matt 11:19 says that, "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ "

I have never heard of Jesus packing moving boxes, but that’s what “*friends *of tax collectors and sinners do”…moreso for families. All the while, make your position known and be charitable.
Situation #2: Sister lives with fiance…Before I found out they were cohabiting, I enthusiastically agreed to visit her this fall. I told her that now, I cannot stay at her home, eat meals there, assemble wedding favors there, etc.,
He ate in the homes of sinners, such as Levi the tax collector-apostle(Luke 5:27-32). Remember that sharing a meal with someone – especially in their house – had a more intimate connotation in Jesus’’ time than it does today. It was a shared ritual among friends, a very social event.

He even stayed in the house of Zacchaeus the tax collector!
Here’s a part of that story found in Luke 19:1-10:
  1. And when Jesus was come to the place, looking up, he saw him, and said to him: Zacheus, make haste and come down; for this day I must abide in thy house.
  2. And he made haste and came down; and received him with joy.
  3. And when all saw it, they murmured, saying, that he was gone to be a guest with a man that was a sinner.
  4. Jesus said to him: This day is salvation come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham.
  5. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
You, by visiting, are the witness of Christ and His Church. You are the “son of Abraham…coming to seek that which is lost.” Your very presence and how you interact with them is the opportunity to plant a mustard seed in thier consciences about their choices and behavior.
Situation #3: DH’s best friend informed us he will be moving in with Catholic girlfriend and proposing marriage soon.
Okay, I can see you not wanting to visit there. They should know better, and please remind them that they need to speak with a priest – who will counsel against it for many good reasons. Besides, to get married in the Church, many parishes outright prohibit cohabitation.

Remember the situation when Jesus was eating at the house of a Pharisee, an anonymous sinful woman who anointed Jesus’ feet with her tears (Matt 26:6-13 Mar 14:3-9 Luke 7:36-50 John 12:1-8). He let a prostitute unbind her hair - a very erotic thing for that era - and touch his sacred person. That’s the modern-day equivalent of showing porn to a houseguest! But Christ handled it with grace – no pun intended. Now, nothing like that is going to happen to you if you visit these folks, but you can become their gateway back to the body of Christ…

On 5/14 Tim Staples talked in the Open Forum for Non-Catholic about the opportunity for friendly evangelism based on the passage about the Samaritan woman in John 4. He called it the “paradigm for evangelism.” Jesus started with small talk, and didn’t limit it to just meeting at the local watering-hole. He went and stayed with these people. The outcasts, the handicapped, the broken and misguided were the ones he reached out to. The ultimate judge while walking this earth, didn’t judge when it came to matters of the heart.

I found a Q&A in the Catholic Answers Book Vol II that will apply here: “As long as you are clear about your concern for their salvation, you need to make it clear that whatever you do is on the conditionthat the the concerned part(ies) recognize that what they are doing is sinful and you hope that they will make a sincere effort to rectify their situations.”
 
I completely agree with the previous poster on this issue. Jesus DID eat and drink with sinners. Jesus DID meet people where they were. He did NOT condone the sin – nor should the OP – but He did not avoid the homes of sinners either.

Also, I see the potential for a “slippery slope” here. If one chooses not to enter the home of a co-habitating couple, does it necessarily follow that one should not enter the home of a contracepting couple? Etc., etc., etc. Where does one draw the line?

I think that the best thing to do is to follow the example of Jesus. One can never go wrong doing so! 🙂

Blessings,
 
I completely agree with the previous poster on this issue. Jesus DID eat and drink with sinners. Jesus DID meet people where they were. He did NOT condone the sin – nor should the OP – but He did not avoid the homes of sinners either.

Also, I see the potential for a “slippery slope” here. If one chooses not to enter the home of a co-habitating couple, does it necessarily follow that one should not enter the home of a contracepting couple? Etc., etc., etc. Where does one draw the line?

I think that the best thing to do is to follow the example of Jesus. One can never go wrong doing so! 🙂

Blessings,
I totally agree with other posts along these lines…
Sinners were ATTRACTED to Christ because he made holiness INVITING… he never shunned a sinner…

Interestingly enough some of the only people he got angry with were those pharisees who followed all the “rules” for public eyes and were hypocrites behind closed doors… (I’m not calling anyone here a hypocrite)… I’m just pointing out what Christ despised… fakery.

John 8:7
But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”
 
I totally agree with other posts along these lines…
Sinners were ATTRACTED to Christ because he made holiness INVITING… he never shunned a sinner…

Interestingly enough some of the only people he got angry with were those pharisees who followed all the “rules” for public eyes and were hypocrites behind closed doors… (I’m not calling anyone here a hypocrite)… I’m just pointing out what Christ despised… fakery.
Yes, thats true!
 
I completely agree with the previous poster on this issue. Jesus DID eat and drink with sinners. Jesus DID meet people where they were. He did NOT condone the sin – nor should the OP – but He did not avoid the homes of sinners either.

Also, I see the potential for a “slippery slope” here. If one chooses not to enter the home of a co-habitating couple, does it necessarily follow that one should not enter the home of a contracepting couple? Etc., etc., etc. Where does one draw the line?

I think that the best thing to do is to follow the example of Jesus. One can never go wrong doing so! 🙂

Blessings,
I have no problem entering the home of a co-habitsting couple. howver I will not allow a cohabitating couple who vists me to sleep in the same room.
 
I completely agree with the previous poster on this issue. Jesus DID eat and drink with sinners. Jesus DID meet people where they were. He did NOT condone the sin – nor should the OP – but He did not avoid the homes of sinners either.

Also, I see the potential for a “slippery slope” here. If one chooses not to enter the home of a co-habitating couple, does it necessarily follow that one should not enter the home of a contracepting couple? Etc., etc., etc. Where does one draw the line?

I think that the best thing to do is to follow the example of Jesus. One can never go wrong doing so! 🙂

Blessings,
I have no problem entering the home of a co-habitating couple. hHowever I will not allow a cohabitating couple who vists me to sleep in the same room.
 
Also, I see the potential for a “slippery slope” here. If one chooses not to enter the home of a co-habitating couple, does it necessarily follow that one should not enter the home of a contracepting couple? Etc., etc., etc. Where does one draw the line?
The difference is that the co-habitating couple is “publicly” sinning, as it were. I think it’s a little naive to think that the majority of folks who move in together before being married aren’t sharing a bed, esp. if, as family, one is aware of all the circumstances around the situation. I know there are people who choose to live together and do NOT share a bed, but I think this is more the exception than the rule.

The contracepting married couple is NOT publicly sinning. That is the difference that makes one scandalous, and the other not necessarily.

Truely’s concern, and I think she’s right to give this much thought, is that she wants to avoid sharing in the scandal for the sake of her own soul AS WELL AS the souls of her family members. At the same time, she wants to maintain high levels of charity and humility. This is a very fine line to walk, and she does well to seek counsel, esp. from her priest. She is obviously seeking to “let Him increase and herself decrease”, and this is very commendable.
 
I don’t know. There are plenty of sins that are public. I have a brother in law who has a few too many at family parties. Should I not go there ever? I mean, think about it, there are a VAST number of “public” sins, or sins that everyone knows about, and the only ones people seem to care about are the ones sexual in nature.

If you were a homosexual and no Christian person ever visited you, how likely do you think you would be to see Jesus in them? How likely would you be to change your ways? Id say not very likely!
 
My own personal opinion: You can’t force someone to believe what you do and the way you do. They are family and to expect them to do what you would do isn’t really fair, nor is it very christian in my opinion.
Teach them by example. They will learn.
But I am curious, are all your friendships Catholics only?
Kathy
Good point made. However, we are called by virtue of our Confirmation to be soldiers for Christ…and while you are right about the issue regarding forcing things down people’s throats, death will eventually force itself down those very same throats. In light of this reality, dare we not speak up like the soldier/prophets of old? Not in condesencion of course, but in collegiality and solidarity with those we are trying to reach…“hey…lets both of us turn to the lord for help…you have your issues, i have mine and we both stand in desparate need of His help”. We are called to be soldiers for the kingdom of light…sadly many of us have become spiritual nannies for modern secular spoiled brats…Yes we are called to give witness by example, great point, but he has also called us to speak up with love and conviction! Should St. Peter have apologized on the day of Pentecost when he railed at the pharisees that “God has made Him both Lord and Christ this Jesus WHOM YOU CRUCIFIED!” I worry about us, that the prophetic edge of our faith has all but disappeared due to our need for affirmation of ourselves and others…you are right, we are called to be an example…maybe that example should include speaking up is all i am saying…“hey, let’s BOTH go to confession, what do you say”?
 
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