President Obama to receive honorary degree from Notre Dame

[Ronald_E]

What specifically have males created?

Death through violence. Dominance through violence and threat of violence. Women and mothers losing their children by those who would use them for economic and/or political gain.

These are all important things to address and the most important thing to address is that which is a direct cause of death to millions of people. If there were a “world of suffering” it would not be equivalent to the direct and intentional murder of human beings, especially on the grand scale in which abortion exists today.
Of that how many of them are directly murdered? How many directly murdered through government sanctioned and voter blessed policy?

I am willing to pay more taxes to support health care, education, day care at businesses where mothers are employed, paid leave for mothers to be home with their children, etc.

Those who support Obama coming to Notre Dame show by their action a disregard for the unborn. Someone who supports killing a parent’s child has no business even being President of a country, let alone being honored.

You have no idea what their actions say about the unborn. You are prejudging.

 

[mapleoak]

Thank you for your patient attempt to understand what I am saying.
Regardless of whether or not I have children, my responsibility is to all the children who suffer in the world. 15,000,000 children die each year before the age of 5. We never see them or hear of them. That is abortion. Do you care for them as much as you say you care for the 40,000,000 children who have been aborted in our society since Roe v Wade?
Consequently, since I do not do enough for any child in my life of denial for all humanity then I am a part of the culture of death. If I neglect anyone suffering that I know of I am a part of the culture of death. If I worry more about what is mine and do not sacrifice more to help those in need then I am a part of the culture of death.
I am a part of the culture of death because I want to retain my own comfort and do the minimal that eases my conscience.

How does any of this justify approval and support and giving honor to a man who wishes to expand to a limitless degree the murder of the unborn?

 

[mapleoak]

What specifically have males created?

Death through violence. Dominance through violence and threat of violence.

This is very vague.

Women and mothers losing their children by those who would use them for economic and/or political gain.

So we should support officials and policy to let these mother’s kill their children so they don’t lose them do to some economic and/or political gain?

I am willing to pay more taxes to support health care, education, day care at businesses where mothers are employed, paid leave for mothers to be home with their children, etc.

But never mind the million+ who will be killed this year.

 

[Ronald_E]

I think you are operating on the false premise that poverty leads to abortion. I don’t think this is the case.

Your way of describing the issue is too simplistic and does not offer any helpful solutions to this complex crisis other than calling it an intrinsic evil. That is obvious. Do you think that evil is that obvious and so easily identified? Evil is deceptive. The intrinsic evil of abortion is what is being used to divide those who want to stop abortion by giving all the attention to the most obvious we do not take care of the lesser known evils that lead to abortion.
I choose to look at the root causes. That is where abortion can be stopped.

 

[mapleoak]

Your way of describing the issue is too simplistic and does not offer any helpful solutions to this complex crisis other than calling it an intrinsic evil. That is obvious. Do you think that evil is that obvious and so easily identified? Evil is deceptive. The intrinsic evil of abortion is what is being used to divide those who want to stop abortion by giving all the attention to the most obvious we do not take care of the lesser known evils that lead to abortion.
I choose to look at the root causes. That is where abortion can be stopped.

How does working to stop the immediate assault on the unborn equate to not addressing the causes of abortion?
How does supporting a candidate who absolutely disdains the unborn help the unborn?

 

[madabkr4tx]

Your way of describing the issue is too simplistic and does not offer any helpful solutions to this complex crisis other than calling it an intrinsic evil. That is obvious. Do you think that evil is that obvious and so easily identified? Evil is deceptive. The intrinsic evil of abortion is what is being used to divide those who want to stop abortion by giving all the attention to the most obvious we do not take care of the lesser known evils that lead to abortion.
I choose to look at the root causes. That is where abortion can be stopped.

You either condone (by allowing it to be a legal choice) abortion or you oppose it. Women from all walks of life undergo abortions, not just the impoverished, so I question whether more government spending is going to help this. Especially since money is also going to fund more abortions.

 

[Ronald_E]

You seem to be lacking compassion for the thousands of human beings who are murdered every day. Again HOW CAN YOU CONDONE ABORTION AND OPPOSE IT AT THE SAME TIME?

I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.

You speak for yourself. You do not speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. If you did you would hear them say “help my mother bring into a safe world.” The unborn need a mother who is safe and loved.

 

[madabkr4tx]

You speak for yourself. You do not speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. If you did you would hear them say “help my mother bring into a safe world.” The unborn need a mother who is safe and loved.

You keep contradicting yourself. If the mother is unsafe and unloved it is okay to kill the baby? You keep say you think abortion is wrong BUT. No buts, if it is wrong in one situation it is wrong in all situations.

Abortion is about birth control. Abortions caused by rape are a very small portion and even in those instances, why is it okay to create two victims where there was only one before?

Do you believe the new “ethic” should be that we kill the suffering or burdensome? Some of these cases are tragic, some are also inspirational. We cannot assume the responsibility for killing an unborn child simply because the child has not yet been seen in public.

 

[bbarrick8383]

You speak for yourself. You do not speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. If you did you would hear them say “help my mother bring into a safe world.” The unborn need a mother who is safe and loved.

Or they could be saying “tell my mother not to kill me, I can make this world a better place”.

Your view of killing babies until this world is safer is sick and twisted. We have to be the ones to stomp out those that wish to hurt our children, like a pack of elephants circling the babies to keep them from harm. With a ferocity of attacking to kill anything that might endager the child or us. There are a few countries that pose a danger to life today, and we can only rely on our government and our military to take care of that. But here on the home front, you would not get close to either of my children without going through me.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

You seem to be lacking compassion for the thousands of human beings who are murdered every day. Again HOW CAN YOU CONDONE ABORTION AND OPPOSE IT AT THE SAME TIME?

I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.

I do, but that isn’t enough. We must also have compassion for sinners, since only by helping them see the light can we truly begin to end the injustice of abortion.

We cannot pursue strictly legal means in our fight against abortion. Christ did not punish sinners, he did not call for stricter laws as a means to counteract sin.

I would like to ask anyone here some questions. They aren’t easy, and thus I don’t expect anyone to answer them, but I’ll ask anyway. How should abortion be made illegal? How should girls be punished if they’re discovered? Should new prisons be built to house them? How should the police decide if a girl has had an illegal abortion or a miscarriage? Should hospitals be required to report evidence of illegal abortions? Would these girls go on trial? Would the juries all see pictures of their genitals as evidence? It is easier to just focus your attention solely on abortion laws than it is to try and answer these questions. But they are important, at least in part because it is due to questions like these that Barack Obama has taken the position he has.

 

[madabkr4tx]

I do, but that isn’t enough. We must also have compassion for sinners, since only by helping them see the light can we truly begin to end the injustice of abortion.

We cannot pursue strictly legal means in our fight against abortion. Christ did not punish sinners, he did not call for stricter laws as a means to counteract sin.

I would like to ask anyone here some questions. They aren’t easy, and thus I don’t expect anyone to answer them, but I’ll ask anyway. How should abortion be made illegal? How should girls be punished if they’re discovered? Should new prisons be built to house them? How should the police decide if a girl has had an illegal abortion or a miscarriage? Should hospitals be required to report evidence of illegal abortions? Would these girls go on trial? Would the juries all see pictures of their genitals as evidence? It is easier to just focus your attention solely on abortion laws than it is to try and answer these questions. But they are important, at least in part because it is due to questions like these that Barack Obama has taken the position he has.

If by helping sinners, you mean helping them to sin, I see your point. Unless you see the unborn a lesser being and not subject to equal protection under the law, how is abortion not murder? Do you condone murder? Should I be allowed to take life as well? Stricter laws don’t prevent anything, but they help.

Lots of things that are illegal still occur. Should they then, be legalized? Rape is illegal. Drunk driving is illegal. Theft is Illegal. These things all still occur.

I really dislike the “You cant win, so don’t fight” mentality. That’s no way to live.

 

[catharina]

I do, but that isn’t enough. We must also have compassion for sinners, since only by helping them see the light can we truly begin to end the injustice of abortion.

We cannot pursue strictly legal means in our fight against abortion. Christ did not punish sinners, he did not call for stricter laws as a means to counteract sin.

I would like to ask anyone here some questions. They aren’t easy, and thus I don’t expect anyone to answer them, but I’ll ask anyway. How should abortion be made illegal? How should girls be punished if they’re discovered? Should new prisons be built to house them? How should the police decide if a girl has had an illegal abortion or a miscarriage? Should hospitals be required to report evidence of illegal abortions? Would these girls go on trial? Would the juries all see pictures of their genitals as evidence? It is easier to just focus your attention solely on abortion laws than it is to try and answer these questions. But they are important, at least in part because it is due to questions like these that Barack Obama has taken the position he has.

If you would look back a VERY short time into this nation’s legal history, you would find all of the answers as to how women and doctors were treated (if discovered) when they came together in abortions. Abortion was legalized here less than forty years ago. It has NOT been legal since the dawn of time as you seem to suggest. Legal abortion is a BRAND NEW thing in the history of this country and the Western world.

That you have become an apologist for Obama by imagining that you and he share concerns about illegal abortion and its legal aftermath is striking. I’ve never heard of another person who wonders if “juries all see pictures of their genitals as evidence.” I hope you brush up on your religious education - in depth.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

If by helping sinners, you mean helping them to sin, I see your point. Unless you see the unborn a lesser being and not subject to equal protection under the law, how is abortion not murder? Do you condone murder? Should I be allowed to take life as well? Stricter laws don’t prevent anything, but they help.

Lots of things that are illegal still occur. Should they then, be legalized? Rape is illegal. Drunk driving is illegal. Theft is Illegal. These things all still occur.

I really dislike the “You cant win, so don’t fight” mentality. That’s no way to live.

It’s one thing to say abortion and murder are equal in the eyes of God. God knows your heart, God knows if you’re repentant, and God can forgive any sin. But making abortion and murder equal under the law is another thing entirely. The law doesn’t forgive, the law locks you away because you’re a danger to society. I’m sure in your Bible, Jesus joins in with the crowd that stones the woman to death, but that’s not what happens in mine.

 

[madabkr4tx]

It’s one thing to say abortion and murder are equal in the eyes of God. God knows your heart, God knows if you’re repentant, and God can forgive any sin. But making abortion and murder equal under the law is another thing entirely. The law doesn’t forgive, the law locks you away because you’re a danger to society. I’m sure in your Bible, Jesus joins in with the crowd that stones the woman to death, but that’s not what happens in mine.

I do wish you would quit implying that I am condemning anyone. I am condemning the act. Are YOU throwing stones?

 

[Luis_Santiago]

If you would look back a VERY short time into this nation’s legal history, you would find all of the answers as to how women and doctors were treated (if discovered) when they came together in abortions. Abortion was legalized here less than forty years ago. It has NOT been legal since the dawn of time as you seem to suggest. Legal abortion is a BRAND NEW thing in the history of this country and the Western world.

The notion that abortion is murder from the moment of conception is relatively recent, and unprecedented before the 19th century. Early American law, which was based on English common law, stated that life began at the moment of quickening, when the infant first stirred in the womb. Abortion was permitted prior to that. Laws against abortion didn’t start appearing until the 1820s or so. Before that, abortion was fairly common in the Roman Empire, and wasn’t considered to be a great evil by the early Church. 40 years ago, abortion was illegal in a majority of states, but still widely performed in secret. In any case, few resources were spend on prosecuting women who had abortions. In Chile, they take abortion a lot more seriously than most of the US did 40 years ago, but it doesn’t seem to have helped.

 

[Ronald_E]

You keep contradicting yourself. If the mother is unsafe and unloved it is okay to kill the baby? You keep say you think abortion is wrong BUT. No buts, if it is wrong in one situation it is wrong in all situations.

Abortion is about birth control. Abortions caused by rape are a very small portion and even in those instances, why is it okay to create two victims where there was only one before?

Do you believe the new “ethic” should be that we kill the suffering or burdensome? Some of these cases are tragic, some are also inspirational. We cannot assume the responsibility for killing an unborn child simply because the child has not yet been seen in public.

If you believe this is what I think then there is nothing more to say. I have no idea how you got to your conclusions.

 

[Ronald_E]

Or they could be saying “tell my mother not to kill me, I can make this world a better place”.

Your view of killing babies until this world is safer is sick and twisted. We have to be the ones to stomp out those that wish to hurt our children, like a pack of elephants circling the babies to keep them from harm. With a ferocity of attacking to kill anything that might endager the child or us. There are a few countries that pose a danger to life today, and we can only rely on our government and our military to take care of that. But here on the home front, you would not get close to either of my children without going through me.

Your view of what I have said is so twisted. You cannot protect the unborn if you do not protect those who carry them. I cannot believe what I have read from you. You immediately attack without understanding what you are attacking. Do you want to stop abortion or do you want to stomp on people?

 

[catharina]

The notion that abortion is murder from the moment of conception is relatively recent, and unprecedented before the 19th century. Early American law, which was based on English common law, stated that life began at the moment of quickening, when the infant first stirred in the womb. Abortion was permitted prior to that. Laws against abortion didn’t start appearing until the 1820s or so. Before that, abortion was fairly common in the Roman Empire, and wasn’t considered to be a great evil by the early Church. 40 years ago, abortion was illegal in a majority of states, but still widely performed in secret. In any case, few resources were spend on prosecuting women who had abortions. In Chile, they take abortion a lot more seriously than most of the US did 40 years ago, but it doesn’t seem to have helped.

What I said is that we know NOW that new life and a new soul begin at the moment of conception. That you choose to fabricate that fact into ‘the Church never cared about abortion until recently’ is ludicrous and infamous. Having read all of your posts, I don’t find it surprising though. The Church has declared that life begins at conception. Neonatology supports this scientific fact. What ever might have existed as guesswork or assumption by the Church in the past regarding the moment new life was/is formed is irrelevant to this exchange since the Church has NEVER been ambiguous in teaching AGAINST abortion.

Quoting another recent post on CA:

"The Didache, the first written Church document we have, is dated by some to 70 AD. Now weren't Ss Peter, Paul, John etc still alive then. It clearly says (without need of clarification)...

Didache 2:2 "do not murder a child by abortion" 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/richardson/...iii.i.iii.html

Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born" - Letter of Barnabas 74 AD.

"I cannot bring myself to speak of the many virgins who daily fall and are lost to the bosom of the Church, their mother. . . . Some go so far as to take potions, that they may insure barrenness, and thus murder human beings almost before their conception. Some, when they find themselves with child through their sin, use drugs to procure abortion, and when, as often happens, they die with their offspring, they enter the lower world laden with the guilt not only of adultery against Christ but also of suicide and child murder" - St Jerome 396 AD

Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . *f it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed" - Apostolic Constitutions 7:3 400 AD"

I can only hope that you stop preaching lies and calling it truth.
I’m guessing you might be very young.
If so, then it seems that your teachers in the Faith have catastrophically failed you.
How could you have reached adulthood with such ambivalence regarding the absolute sanctity of life? How can you embrace a concern regarding those ‘poor girls in Chile’ who kill their babies and face consequences for the action? The babies are DEAD.*

 

[mapleoak]

You speak for yourself. You do not speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. If you did you would hear them say “help my mother bring into a safe world.” The unborn need a mother who is safe and loved.

You certainly won’t hear them say “kill me so I don’t have to be brought into a dangerous world”.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

I can only hope that you stop preaching lies and calling it truth.
I’m guessing you might be very young.
If so, then it seems that your teachers in the Faith have catastrophically failed you.
How could you have reached adulthood with such ambivalence regarding the absolute sanctity of life? How can you embrace a concern regarding those ‘poor girls in Chile’ who kill their babies and face consequences for the action? The babies are DEAD.

St. Jerome proves that this view was not unprecedented before the 19th century, and I admit I was wrong on this one count, although his views are not necessarily identical to those of the Church at the time. But I never once said abortion is not wrong. That is only what you think I said. I also never said that abortion is never murder. Clearly a child in the ninth month of pregnancy is as much a person as you or I. But I cannot in my mind ascribe full personhood to an embryo that cannot move, think, or feel pain. In this early stage, it can split in half and form two full human beings, which is where identical twins come from. For all your talk of new scientific knowledge, the science indicates that at this early stage, the blastula is not a full person. If it were to divide, it would form two people, if it were to fuse with another blastula, they would together form one. It can even get absorbed into the mother’s body and the cells can take on new roles within her. The science indicates that something this malleable is not fully a person, since the number of people that it is has not even been established yet.

You seem to be displaying more hatred, anger, and fear than love and compassion, not only toward the girls I was describing, but toward me. You are angry that views like mine exist within the Church, and fearful that these views will corrupt it. You’ve directed your hatred toward people like Obama, who don’t really deserve it to the extent that they’re receiving it. But the Church has changed over the millennia, and I am confident that it will continue to change. Some people are still upset over the changes of Vatican II, and think it has corrupted the Church, but this is hardly the case. I still follow the Church’s teachings, even though I disagree with some of them. Maybe the Church will change some of their teachings. Maybe not.