President Obama to receive honorary degree from Notre Dame

[elts1956]

I am not doing this. Neither is the U.S Conference of Bishops.

I’m concerned that this is exactly what you are doing, though, contrary to what the US Conference of Bishops teaches in “Faithful Citizenship.” You are putting the abortion issue into one compartment, and refusing to consider any other moral issue in making your political decisions (as I understand what you’ve shared).

Unless I’m misunderstanding you, which is of course possible and if true I hope you’ll continue to correct me, you are “compartmentalizing” abortion above and beyond any other moral issue or consideration. This is not what “Faithful Citizenship” does, although it does not preclude individual Catholics from doing so (which is why I am not objecting to you doing it, for yourself, as your own understanding of the best way to live out the Catholic faith).

I am glad to hear we’re reading the same document. That should help! I differ, though–I think that Faithful Citizenship was remarkably clear, in many respects, given the complexity of the issue it addressed. Still, though, I can see why you would say it’s not clear, at least in some respects. Still, despite the complexity of the issue, which in my opinion admits of no easy answers (though I recognize many would prefer easy answers, black and white, yes or no, etc.), I see much of what it says as being very clear and very helpful, e.g.:

Please, note, concern for abortion (or any other single issue) cannot dismiss consideration of other moral issues (many of which are also classified by the Church as intrinsic evils…oh, and of course, note how the Bishops comment that choices about how best to respond are matters for principled debate and decision…did you read that? Do you agree? Do you agree with the U.S. Bishops here, or do you deny their teaching? I won’t even mention further the part about “support one another.”).

Please, note the “if” clause in the last sentence.

Please, note everything following “nor.”

Please, note…everything in these sentences.

Yes, yes, yes, the news has been full of them. Goodness, they certainly have no problem getting their faces and opinions in the news! I don’t have the time or interest to keep up with what every indivudal bishop, priest, commentator, journalist, whoever, is saying about this topic. To guide my life I’ll continue to by what the universal Church teaches, what the U.S. Conference of Bishops teaches, and what the Bishop of my diocese teaches. You can search out and find those others who say what you want and already agree with and align yourself with them if you want to. Just don’t pretend that those opinions have any universal authority. I have no objection to any of them sharing their opinions.

Sorry…what? Did you just say we can’t judge individuals, but then you turned right around and judged them? Please clarify. Or, are you really claiming God’s certitude that anyone voting for Obama has been judged wrong by God?

Ok. Fortunately, your lack of understanding is not binding on the rest of us Catholics.

I support your commitment to the issue of abortion and, from what you’ve shared, what I understand this means for you and your political choices. I may not agree with you in all respects, but in this respect I am confident that you are acting in line with Catholic teaching and I support that.

I do not support your contention…if I read it right…that anyone who voted for Obama is not following Church teaching as taught by the Vatican and by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Yes we must be responsible and concerned with all unjust issues in this life, BUT not all are of the same gravity and you must admit not all can be solved. BUT when an Intrinsic Evil, such as abortion, is being promoted by a candidate running for office, we CANNOT support the evil either directly, or tacitly. In the past election, Abortion TRUMPED all other issues. The USCCB did say that and so did the Vatican which the USCCB “sometimes” supports.

And that is ALL I have to say about THAT!!! :yyeess:

 

[Ronald_E]

So, women who have abortions arent safe? Really, either I am understanding exactly what you are saying and obviously not likeing it. Or, you are having a horrible time explaining what you mean.

Probably both.
Have you talked to many women who have had an abortion?

 

[bbarrick8383]

Probably both.
Have you talked to many women who have had an abortion?

Unfortunately no, I do not know of any in my area who have had an abortion. With the exception of one girl I went to high school with. There was a rumor that she had an abortion as a teenager, but nobody really knew. I have read many articles on the issue, watched a documentary on tv about an area in Tenn. that was mostly minorities and high in abortion rates.

The point is, a woman may claim she does not feel safe, or the world does not feel safe. But that is far from being any sort of logical reason to abort a child.

 

[Ronald_E]

Unfortunately no, I do not know of any in my area who have had an abortion. With the exception of one girl I went to high school with. There was a rumor that she had an abortion as a teenager, but nobody really knew. I have read many articles on the issue, watched a documentary on tv about an area in Tenn. that was mostly minorities and high in abortion rates.

The point is, a woman may claim she does not feel safe, or the world does not feel safe. But that is far from being any sort of logical reason to abort a child.

When fear is strong new research into the brain using modern imaging techniques shows how the prefrontal cortex of the brain will decrease in activity and the amygdala will exhibit a higher level of activity.
The prefrontal cortex is associate with problem solving on a conscious level and the amygdala is associate with the fight or flight response and determining threat on an instinctive and unconscious level. The decision then is made according to what will calm the fear response.
It is much more involved than this but this is the basic dynamic taking place.

 

[catharina]

And frankly, your logic with regard to infallibility of ensoulment occurring at the instant of biological conception, is a joke.

Luis follows Luis. That’s no surprise.
Catholics MUST follow the Church.

Abortion is forbidden to all from the instant of conception.
(Except to Luis who can cling to his best guess?)

 

[Ronald_E]

Luis follows Luis. That’s no surprise.
Catholics MUST follow the Church.

Abortion is forbidden to all from the instant of conception.
(Except to Luis who can cling to his best guess?)

Please don’t attack Luis. Your anger does not help you make your point.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

Luis follows Luis. That’s no surprise.
Catholics MUST follow the Church.

Abortion is forbidden to all from the instant of conception.
(Except to Luis who can cling to his best guess?)

That bizarre line of logic you used to “prove” that the Church has declared infallibility on the issue of when, biologically, the soul comes into existence… I guarantee you that isn’t official Church teaching. Like I said earlier, there are multiple definitions of “conception”, and your logic tries to equate two different ones. This sort of proof-by-definition is a logical fallacy.

Honestly, it makes no difference whether abortion is forbidden to me or not since I can’t ever get pregnant. But it’s one thing to oppose abortion, it’s another entirely to focus so narrowly on abortion you lose sight of the other evils in the world.

 

[catharina]

Please don’t attack Luis. Your anger does not help you make your point.

It should be very clear that I’m attacking Luis’s self-created doubts, his rejection of truth.

 

[catharina]

That bizarre line of logic you used to “prove” that the Church has declared infallibility on the issue of when, biologically, the soul comes into existence… I guarantee you that isn’t official Church teaching. Like I said earlier, there are multiple definitions of “conception”, and your logic tries to equate two different ones. This sort of proof-by-definition is a logical fallacy.

Honestly, it makes no difference whether abortion is forbidden to me or not since I can’t ever get pregnant. But it’s one thing to oppose abortion, it’s another entirely to focus so narrowly on abortion you lose sight of the other evils in the world.

Luis, you have said you can’t believe that a newly conceived individual is on a par with an individual who has grown in a full nine-month pregnancy. I say you are in grave error because the CHURCH teaches otherwise.

You say that you gave much prayer and thought to your newly chosen stance, therefore you are correct. I say prayer CANNOT ever lead away from truth. Your logic that is faulty.

You say that you imagine I lose sight of other evils in the world. Again, your imagination leads you. I’m 63 yrs-old and have served the poorest of the poor for all of my life. That you chose to ignore the grave evil of abortion, the very center of the culture of death, is an absolute horror.

May God lead you back to the fullness of truth and a fully committed life of FAITH.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

Luis, you have said you can’t believe that a newly conceived individual is on a par with an individual who has grown in a full nine-month pregnancy. I say you are in grave error because the CHURCH teaches otherwise.

I don’t deny what the Church teaches, only that this specific teaching is infallible, and that this specific teaching has always been the Church’s position.

You say that you gave much prayer and thought to your newly chosen stance, therefore you are correct. I say prayer CANNOT ever lead away from truth. Your logic that is faulty.

Not everyone who prays is Catholic, surely God hears their prayers too?

You say that you imagine I lose sight of other evils in the world.

I am accusing you of nothing. I only said I believe it is important not to lose sight of the other evils in the world.

Again, your imagination leads you. I’m 63 yrs-old and have served the poorest of the poor for all of my life. That you chose to ignore the grave evil of abortion, the very center of the culture of death, is an absolute horror.

That is an admirable life’s work, and I commend you for it. I truly do. You have not lost sight of the other evils in the world, and have worked actively to correct these injustices. I hope to do the same over the rest of my life.

But I am saying this from personal experience, I do not think legislating strict abortion laws is the best way to create a culture of life. In Chile, these laws have not been effective at doing this. They are circumvented all the time, and in fact Chile has the highest abortion rate in Latin America, even though they have the strictest abortion laws. The laws are too strict to enforce, and so they are not followed. Again, we cannot legislate a culture of life; we have to work from the bottom up, not the top down.

May God lead you back to the fullness of truth and a fully committed life of FAITH.

At least we can agree on this, though I would remove the word “back”. I’m not sure I was ever there in the first place; indeed I was only at the beginning of my journey in faith.

 

[bbarrick8383]

When fear is strong new research into the brain using modern imaging techniques shows how the prefrontal cortex of the brain will decrease in activity and the amygdala will exhibit a higher level of activity.
The prefrontal cortex is associate with problem solving on a conscious level and the amygdala is associate with the fight or flight response and determining threat on an instinctive and unconscious level. The decision then is made according to what will calm the fear response.
It is much more involved than this but this is the basic dynamic taking place.

Where is the fear derived from? The process of the abortion? The process of having a child? Fear of her environment, globally and locally? There are so many cases of abortion, for so many different reason.

Most women who get pregnant go through a slew of emotions, even the ones who have every intention of bringing this child into their life, they tend to make bad choices based on feelings, whether it is anger or fear. My wife, pregnant with my second child slapped the heck out of me one day driving down the road, nothing more than a normal dispute and she did something she has never done and would never do under different circumstances. It was not a major argument, something typical and we might fight 2 or 3 times a year.

If every woman/girl who got pregnant and wished to abort, had to sit down with a pastor, had to view an ultra-sound and had to get counseling from a pro-life counselor, I think they would change their mind. But it’s hard to have that happen with thugs like planned parenthood running around.

 

[catharina]

I don’t deny what the Church teaches, only that this specific teaching is infallible, and that this specific teaching has always been the Church’s position.

I am accusing you of nothing. I only said I believe it is important not to lose sight of the other evils in the world.

Luis, you do not recall saying this?

“But it’s one thing to oppose abortion, it’s another entirely to focus so narrowly on abortion you lose sight of the other evils in the world.” Your memory seems to be quite faulty.

As for the Church standing AGAINST abortion, it has ALWAYS done so, since its start.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

Luis, you do not recall saying this?

“But it’s one thing to oppose abortion, it’s another entirely to focus so narrowly on abortion you lose sight of the other evils in the world.” Your memory seems to be quite faulty.

As for the Church standing AGAINST abortion, it has ALWAYS done so, since its start.

By “you” I meant generic “you”, or if you prefer “one”. As in, “But it’s one thing to oppose abortion, it’s another entirely for one to focus so narrowly on abortion that one loses sight of the other evils in the world.” Apologies for any miscommunication.

The Church has always been against many things, including premarital sex. But that doesn’t mean we need to do everything in our power to create laws to punish those things.

Every single time you reply to me, you confuse my statement that “the Church has not always equated all abortions to murder”, with the statement that “the Church has not always said abortion was wrong.” Every single time! I’m getting tired of explaining it over and over; it’s been like ten times now. So please, make sure you understand this distinction, it’s important.

 

[catharina]

By “you” I meant generic “you”, or if you prefer “one”. As in, “But it’s one thing to oppose abortion, it’s another entirely for one to focus so narrowly on abortion that one loses sight of the other evils in the world.” Apologies for any miscommunication.

The Church has always been against many things, including premarital sex. But that doesn’t mean we need to do everything in our power to create laws to punish those things.

Every single time you reply to me, you confuse my statement that “the Church has not always equated all abortions to murder”, with the statement that “the Church has not always said abortion was wrong.” Every single time! I’m getting tired of explaining it over and over; it’s been like ten times now. So please, make sure you understand this distinction, it’s important.

Luis, it is YOU who have miscommunicated and you’ve just apologized for it.

In stating, many posts ago, that you can’t accept the value of newly conceived life as equal to the life of an in-utero, close-to-term baby, it is YOU that has deviated from Church Teaching.

You can deviate, divert and hair-split 'til kingdom come re YOUR reserved bias of the Church’s stand on murder/not-murder. I have no interest in your argument about that. It’s utterly pointless since we live in THIS day. We are taught that abortion is a profound and deadly evil at ANY stage of pregnancy. You fully deny and abandon THAT truth.

 

[ProVobis]

If every woman/girl who got pregnant and wished to abort, had to sit down with a pastor, had to view an ultra-sound and had to get counseling from a pro-life counselor, I think they would change their mind. But it’s hard to have that happen with thugs like planned parenthood running around.

I think adoption is the only real solution to this. Why isn’t this mentioned more often by politicians? I would have been more than happy to have my taxes go to adoption but then none of the politicians would go for it.

 

[ProVobis]

The Church has always been against many things, including premarital sex. But that doesn’t mean we need to do everything in our power to create laws to punish those things.

Actually, fornication and adultery are still illegal in most states. Why aren’t we enforcing that?

 

[bbarrick8383]

I think adoption is the only real solution to this. Why isn’t this mentioned more often by politicians? I would have been more than happy to have my taxes go to adoption but then none of the politicians would go for it.

I agree completely. We should steer them from the abortion road to the adoption road as quickly as possible. But making abortion 100 percent illegal is going to be a long hard fight.

 

[mapleoak]

When fear is strong new research into the brain using modern imaging techniques shows how the prefrontal cortex of the brain will decrease in activity and the amygdala will exhibit a higher level of activity.
The prefrontal cortex is associate with problem solving on a conscious level and the amygdala is associate with the fight or flight response and determining threat on an instinctive and unconscious level. The decision then is made according to what will calm the fear response.
It is much more involved than this but this is the basic dynamic taking place.

Even this is no excuse. It is rare indeed that anyone who commits murder does so because of the shear pleasure they get from it. In almost all cases of murder, there is some level of: fear, safety, want, need, threat, etc.
None of these excuse the murderer though the circumstances may influence charges and sentencing upon conviction. Why should it be handled any different for persons killed prior to birth or mothers who have them killed?

 

[ProVobis]

But making abortion 100 percent illegal is going to be a long hard fight.

Roe vs Wade has caused a lot of damage. It’s killed multi-millions. And it was/were the Republicans that stuck it to us. And now they’re pretending to want it overturned. Yeh, right. Talk is cheap if you don’t suggest alternatives.

 

[mapleoak]

You’re like a car alarm. It has a noble purpose, to protect against theft. But it goes off so much and for such minor reasons, that everybody just tries to ignore it no matter how loud it is.

Not sure what you are referring to on how it relates to the post you replied to. However, what are calling minor, the million plus killed per year in this country?