President Obama to receive honorary degree from Notre Dame

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If I remember the statistics I saw a couple years ago correctly, rape, incest, and saving the life of the mother accounted for less than 5% of abortions, yet those are the only ones that “pro-choicer’s” will point to when debating the issue.
 
If I remember the statistics I saw a couple years ago correctly, rape, incest, and saving the life of the mother accounted for less than 5% of abortions, yet those are the only ones that “pro-choicer’s” will point to when debating the issue.
Right. And because much of the pro-life movement is against abortion in these situations, this works for them. They will defend only the abortions that are easiest for them to defend. No pro-choicer is going to choose to defend a woman who has an abortion because she doesn’t want her pregnancy to mess up her plastic surgery, when there are much easier cases to defend.

The pro-life movement does the same thing though, when they describe all abortions as though they were late-term abortions. Yes, at 30 weeks a fetus can move and feel pain and suffer, but to be perfectly honest, a 4-week old embryo doesn’t even have a nervous system, and can do none of that. And more than half of abortions are done before eight weeks. It is easiest to use emotional speech to defend fetuses that can move and feel pain, it is much harder to defend those that have no brain or human appearance or ability to feel.
 
Ok, so the USCCB is conflicted among themselves. You support the minority opinion, I support the majority opinion. If they can’t resolve it, then it’s safe to say we can’t either.

Odd, that it’s probably the most anti-Christian book I’ve ever read, advocating extreme selfishness and flat-out rejecting any concept of God.

If we support a non-Catholic politician, that doesn’t mean we support all their beliefs.
Just for an exaggerated example, would you have voted for Hitler?
 
Just for an exaggerated example, would you have voted for Hitler?
Depends who he was running against. If it was that beast from Revelations with all the heads and horns, and there wasn’t a third party that could conceivably win, maybe. But in any case, Hitler sounds like he would have been a Republican:
Adolf Hitler:
Today Christians … stand at the head of [this country]… I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity … We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit … We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past years.
He kinda sounds like Ronald Reagan there…
 
Depends who he was running against. If it was that beast from Revelations with all the heads and horns, and there wasn’t a third party that could conceivably win, maybe. But in any case, Hitler sounds like he would have been a Republican:

He kinda sounds like Ronald Reagan there…
Originally Posted by elts1956
Just for an exaggerated example, would you have voted for Hitler?

Depends who he was running against. If it was that beast from Revelations with all the heads and horns, and there wasn’t a third party that could conceivably win, maybe. But in any case, Hitler sounds like he would have been a Republican:

Hitler also had charisma, elegant elocution, offered hope and change. He fooled many people didn’t he? We were/are no where near to the desperation of the German people. Yet, just a bit over half the voters fell for words also. Pied Piper? The herd instinct??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adolf Hitler
Today Christians … stand at the head of [this country]… I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity … We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit … We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past years.

He kinda sounds like Ronald Reagan there…
 
Hitler also had charisma, elegant elocution, offered hope and change. He fooled many people didn’t he? We were/are no where near to the desperation of the German people. Yet, just a bit over half the voters fell for words also. Pied Piper? The herd instinct?
Ronald Reagan was all of those things too. And Hitler, like Reagan, was a social conservative who wanted to bring back family values, restore a sense of patriotism to the people, and curb liberal excess.
 
Ronald Reagan was all of those things too. And Hitler, like Reagan, was a social conservative who wanted to bring back family values, restore a sense of patriotism to the people, and curb liberal excess.
So he SAID. If judgeing from the results, was there a difference beetween the ideologies of Hitler and Reagan?
 
So he SAID. If judgeing from the results, was there a difference beetween the ideologies of Hitler and Reagan?
Of course. My point was to make you realize that many of these comparisons you are making between Obama and Hitler can also be made between Reagan and Hitler.

Obviously, saying Obama is like Hitler is dishonest.
 
No problem…we all make typos…I hope you understand my intent was not to be picky, but really to make sure we understood what you were saying. Your messages were (admirably) brief, so the significance of a typo may be higher. Thanks.

I wouldn’t say a green light per se, I think it’s still a yellow light because abortion (in this case, I assume that’s the main issue in this thread) IS an intrinsic evil, and if a Catholic is going to vote for someone whose position on an intrinsic evil differs from the Catholic Church they must do so after very careful consideration of, reflection on, understanding of, and prayer about, Church teaching. So maybe some see it as a “green light” but I don’t. My point is more that it’s not a red light, I guess (to continue the metaphor).

I think you make an excellent point to raise the issue about the nature of episcopal conferences and individual bishops. Thank you for adding that to the consideration here. I understand the juridical limits of episcopal conferences and know that’s a topic that is definitely one of the fuzzier and unresolved issues following VII. On the other hand, I think VII did a tremendous job of clarifying the teaching on the authority and nature of the episcopal office (mostly individual bishops including the Pope, but also the college of bishops). I think anyone seriously reflecting on this issue needs to “listen” to BOTH the USCCB (at least, if they’re American) and their own diocesan Bishop.

I know many individual Bishops have spoken out on this issue, and they disagree with Notre Dame’s decision. I have not heard them claim, though, that the document in question (we are talking about Faithful Citizenship, is that right?) should be changed. So, I don’t “hear” them saying that we have to choose between Faithful Citizenship (FC) or their opinions. FC is the document I refer to that allows the possibility for a Catholic in good conscience without violating Church teaching to vote for a candidate whose positions may not agree in all respects with the Catholic Church, particularly on issues involving intrinsic evils.

Now, I think the document the individual bishops are speaking out against ND on is the 2004 letter the USCCB posted on their web site (hardly a formal juridical teaching iaw Apostolos Suos, as you note, correctly imho) that discussed “Catholics in Political Life.” Given that statement, and the nature of its authority, I think its principles need to applied specifically in a given applicable situation. ND interpreted it one way, some individual bishops interpret it differently. The Conference for better or worse has not publicly issued any clarification.

So, I think every individual needs to listen to their own Bishop and listen to the relevant teachings of the Conference and the Vatican. On this specific issue I think there’s room for some diversity of views, all of which is in accord with Catholic teaching.

My local bishop has spoken out disagreeing with ND’s decision. But he has not said that Catholics cannot, in good conscience, agree with ND’s decision. I think both of those facts are important.

One other thought, and this is purely my opinion, I just can’t help but wonder if the majority of U.S. bishops who have not spoken out on this are silent because (1) they disagree with those who have spoken out and don’t want to cause division/scandal among the bishops or (2) they simply don’t see it as important enough. I don’t know, I sometimes wish that the Conference would be able to speak as one in a timely manner to issues like this.

Thanks again for your thoughtful comments.
This is slightly off topic but I wanted to say that I have not seen any bishop claim that they are binding Catholics under obedience to them in either document. What I have seen is some bishops explain what the Church is teaching in these matters. Since truth cannot contradict truth then either some are explaining Church teaching wrongly, or both sides are wrong.
 
Of course. My point was to make you realize that many of these comparisons you are making between Obama and Hitler can also be made between Reagan and Hitler.

Obviously, saying Obama is like Hitler is dishonest.
And in what way were Hitler and Reagan not alike? You are being dishonest in giving the impression you believe Obama and Hitler are nothing alike. Clarify.
 
Right. And because much of the pro-life movement is against abortion in these situations, this works for them. They will defend only the abortions that are easiest for them to defend. No pro-choicer is going to choose to defend a woman who has an abortion because she doesn’t want her pregnancy to mess up her plastic surgery, when there are much easier cases to defend.

The pro-life movement does the same thing though, when they describe all abortions as though they were late-term abortions. Yes, at 30 weeks a fetus can move and feel pain and suffer, but to be perfectly honest, a 4-week old embryo doesn’t even have a nervous system, and can do none of that. And more than half of abortions are done before eight weeks. It is easiest to use emotional speech to defend fetuses that can move and feel pain, it is much harder to defend those that have no brain or human appearance or ability to feel.
We do not make the distinction between a 4-week old unborn child or a 30 week unborn child as far as the severity of the act. They are both gravely disordered actions. The emphasis tends to appeal to the emotional argument, as the majority of the population tends to be driven by emotion. To a rational person, bloody images are not even necessary. Simply the knowledge that a completely separate and individual human being is killed is sufficient to determine the wrongness of the act.
 
This is slightly off topic but I wanted to say that I have not seen any bishop claim that they are binding Catholics under obedience to them in either document. What I have seen is some bishops explain what the Church is teaching in these matters. Since truth cannot contradict truth then either some are explaining Church teaching wrongly, or both sides are wrong.
I haven’t read each and every bishop’s individual statements. They may or may not be claiming to bind Catholics to obedience. What I have observed, though, is people referring to individual bishop’s statements and concluding therefore that Catholics are bound to agree. Many people are treating this as a litmus test for Catholicism.

Perhaps the analogy with war/just war would work. The Catholic Church has teachings on war, including the idea of a just war (just as the Church has teachings on Catholics in political life). These teachings must be applied to specific wars (just as teachings must be applied to specific candidates, elections, political issues, etc.). Using the Iraq war as an example, there are a variety of opinions on whether or not it was a just war, or how much or in what way Catholics may/should support it. This does not mean “truth contradicts truth.” Those who feel it was a just war are not, necessarily, imho, contradicting Church teachings. Those who feel it is an unjust war are obviously not contradicting Church teaching.

So I disagree that we need conclude some Bishops are wrong or both sides are wrong in this particular issue.
 
I haven’t read each and every bishop’s individual statements. They may or may not be claiming to bind Catholics to obedience. What I have observed, though, is people referring to individual bishop’s statements and concluding therefore that Catholics are bound to agree. Many people are treating this as a litmus test for Catholicism.

Perhaps the analogy with war/just war would work. The Catholic Church has teachings on war, including the idea of a just war (just as the Church has teachings on Catholics in political life). These teachings must be applied to specific wars (just as teachings must be applied to specific candidates, elections, political issues, etc.). Using the Iraq war as an example, there are a variety of opinions on whether or not it was a just war, or how much or in what way Catholics may/should support it. This does not mean “truth contradicts truth.” Those who feel it was a just war are not, necessarily, imho, contradicting Church teachings. Those who feel it is an unjust war are obviously not contradicting Church teaching.

So I disagree that we need conclude some Bishops are wrong or both sides are wrong in this particular issue.
I do not think that is a fair analogy because Cardinal Ratzinger said, explicitly, Catholics are free to disagree on that topic but not on abortion.

What I am trying to get at is that it is not a matter of a bishop binding conscinces in their care on voting based on obedience. It is that they are explaining how Catholics are obligated to properly form their conscience in this matter.
 
With regard to President Obama receiving an honorary degree from Notre Dame, Bishop Edward J. Slattery of Tulsa said this: “For President Obama to be honored by Notre Dame is more than a disappointment, it is a scandal.”

Source: I found the quote here.
 
With regard to President Obama receiving an honorary degree from Notre Dame, Bishop Edward J. Slattery of Tulsa said this: “For President Obama to be honored by Notre Dame is more than a disappointment, it is a scandal.”

Source: I found the quote here.
What is amazing is how someone who wants us to be able to kill our children (including those that are already born) can be honored for anything, let alone be the president of the United States. To give honor is to give approval is to give scandal.
 
I do not think that is a fair analogy because Cardinal Ratzinger said, explicitly, Catholics are free to disagree on that topic but not on abortion.
I never said or implied that Catholic are free to disagree on abortion. I didn’t think anyone here did. I thought we were talking about voting and politics, in which there is latitude for properly formed consciences to end up with different conclusions.
 
I never said or implied that Catholic are free to disagree on abortion. I didn’t think anyone here did. I thought we were talking about voting and politics, in which there is latitude for properly formed consciences to end up with different conclusions.
Since abortion was the only intrinsic evil observed and protected by any party in it’s platform, the properly formed conscience needed to go no further. Voting and politics stopped after that and good versus evil became the objective. Very simple, really!!

Obviously 54% of the Catholic voting population doesn’t qualify as having “a well formed conscience” (in the Church, is always implied).
 
Since abortion was the only intrinsic evil observed and protected by any party in it’s platform the properly formed conscience needed to go no further. .
That’s what a lot of people think. And according to Church teaching that’s a reasonable and acceptable conclusion to reach from what the Church teaches.

Embryonic stem cell research also raises the issue of intrinsic evil. Neither party advocated a position on that issue in accordance with Catholic teaching. I don’t believe either party disallowed abortion under all circumstances either.
 
That’s what a lot of people think. And according to Church teaching that’s a reasonable and acceptable conclusion to reach from what the Church teaches.

Embryonic stem cell research also raises the issue of intrinsic evil. Neither party advocated a position on that issue in accordance with Catholic teaching. I don’t believe either party disallowed abortion under all circumstances either.
One parties platform states that embryonic stem cell research is unethical science and should not receive any funding. Not much room for intrinsic evil there. The other parties platform hits the mark for intrinsic evil on just about every front.

Your observation seems a little skewed.
 
With regard to President Obama receiving an honorary degree from Notre Dame, Bishop Edward J. Slattery of Tulsa said this: “For President Obama to be honored by Notre Dame is more than a disappointment, it is a scandal.”

Source: I found the quote here.
Thank goodness, finally, one Bishop, so far, has the termerity to use the word SCANDAL instead of embarrassment. 👍
 
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