President Obama to receive honorary degree from Notre Dame

[Luis_Santiago]

The most virulent anti life President and is honoured?
Yeah right!!! How disappointing and sad.
GraceAngel.

There have only been two pro-choice presidents, Obama and Clinton. One other president, Jimmy Carter, is pro-life but has disavowed the pro-life movement because he believes, as I do, that their priorities are misplaced.

Everyone keeps claiming Obama is so extremely pro-abortion, but I can’t see how he’s any more so than Clinton.

 

[stringbeanduck]

Obviously, not everyone thinks as you do that the President is “pro-abortion” and if you listened to his recent new conference the other night you might realize that yourself.

Yes, he is “pro-choice” but for most people that’s not the same as calling someone “pro-abortion.”

All direct abortion is murder.
All Obama supports direct abortion.
Therefore All Obama supports murder.

Now the literal meaning of the prefix “pro” means forward( support for)

All Obama supports direct abortion.
All pro-abortion means supporting direct abortion.
Therefore All Obama is pro- abortion .

BTW, even though there is no need to say All Obama(given that there is only one of him), I am doing so to point out it is an AAA syllogism.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

All direct abortion is murder.
All Obama supports direct abortion.
Therefore All Obama supports murder.

Now the literal meaning of the prefix “pro” means forward( support for)

All Obama supports direct abortion.
All pro-abortion means supporting direct abortion.
Therefore All Obama is pro- abortion .

BTW, even though there is no need to say All Obama(given that there is only one of him), I am doing so to point out it is an AAA syllogism.

I can’t decide which of three logical fallacies to impose on you. I’ll go from most to least obvious.

Fallacy of Equivocation
It is extremely ambiguous what is meant or implied by “supports”.

Fallacy of Accident
There are most certainly murders that Obama doesn’t support.

Invalid Assumption
“All direct abortions are murder” is by no means indisputable.

Anyway, it’s kind of ridiculous to think you can fully understand the issue of abortion by using AAA syllogisms.

 

[stringbeanduck]

I can’t decide which of three logical fallacies to impose on you. I’ll go from most to least obvious.

Fallacy of Equivocation
It is extremely ambiguous what is meant or implied by “supports”.

How so? He supports abortion. Nothing unclear about that.Fallacy of Accident
There are most certainly murders that Obama doesn’t support.

I didn’t say Obama supports all murders.
Invalid Assumption
“All direct abortions are murder” is by no means indisputable.

That’s what you think, but the church teaches that all direct abortion is murder. Did you put Catholic as your religion by accident. Sorry, but I got to ask to be sure.

Anyway, it’s kind of ridiculous to think you can fully understand the issue of abortion by using AAA syllogisms.

 

[Grace_Angel]

There have only been two pro-choice presidents, Obama and Clinton. One other president, Jimmy Carter, is pro-life but has disavowed the pro-life movement because he believes, as I do, that their priorities are misplaced.

Everyone keeps claiming Obama is so extremely pro-abortion, but I can’t see how he’s any more so than Clinton.

Remember the week of his election he sat down and the first bans to reversed are the abortion bans. Yeah right you dont understand how he is more pro abortion. What more do you want. Pathetic man that he is.
GraceAngel.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Not a single Bishop from California

That seriously worries me.

Which Notre Dame University is this? The one in Illinois or the one out here in Belmont, California?

 

[Luis_Santiago]

How so? He supports abortion. Nothing unclear about that.

It’s very unclear what is meant by “he supports abortion”. Does he support all abortions? Does he support China’s coerced abortion policy? Is he part of the support staff for abortion clinics? The statement is too vague to have any real meaning.

That’s what you think, but the church teaches that all direct abortion is murder. Did you put Catholic as your religion by accident. Sorry, but I got to ask to be sure.

I’m approaching it as an argument accessible by anyone. If you mentioned that this is what the Church teaches, I would have had no problems with that. Plus, you don’t have to believe 100% of the Church’s teachings to be Catholic.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

I understand what you were trying to demonstrate, but I feel compelled to nit-pick here:

Cancer cells contain a unique set of human DNA.
All cancer is alive.
Therefore, a cancerous tumor is a unique human life.
Therefore, destroying a cancerous tumor is murder.

The bold statement is generally* not true. The DNA in one’s cancerous cells is the same as the DNA in one’s other cells.

Generally because in the crazy world of molecular biology, crazy things happen in very rare instances, such as genetic mosaicism

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Plus, you don’t have to believe 100% of the Church’s teachings to be Catholic.

Is this true Luís?

I admit I’m only an infant in the faith (only been a Christian for a few weeks now), but aren’t we called to believe “all that Holy Mother Church teaches”?

I don’t mean to derail this thread, so if you could find the time to explain to me how dissent could be justifiable, let alone possible for a Catholic, I’d really appreciate it.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Oh, and by “explain to me” I meant “email me” or “send me a private message” as to not further derail the thread.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

I understand what you were trying to demonstrate, but I feel compelled to nit-pick here:

The bold statement is generally* not true. The DNA in one’s cancerous cells is the same as the DNA in one’s other cells.

Well, cancer cells are typically mutated, and mutations signify a change in DNA. There may be some cancers caused by things other than genetic mutations, but carcinogens more often than not cause cancer by damaging DNA.

I do have to give you props for understanding a good deal about cellular biology though. I thought about being more specific with that line, but I didn’t expect anyone to call me on it. I still stand by what I said, although it only applies to most, but probably not all cancers.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

Is this true Luís?

I admit I’m only an infant in the faith (only been a Christian for a few weeks now), but aren’t we called to believe “all that Holy Mother Church teaches”?

I don’t mean to derail this thread, so if you could find the time to explain to me how dissent could be justifiable, let alone possible for a Catholic, I’d really appreciate it.

I’m more of the Jesuit school of Catholic theology, which encourages questions and study and debate. They teach that you can never know too much, and that there is nothing wrong with having questions or disagreements with aspects of the Church, as long as your motivations are honest. Here are two examples of articles on this subject, written by a Jesuit publication:

americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=11645
americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=11564

I hope having this information helps you understand your new faith better.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

No. He was not consulted before ND offered the invitation. That’s not the same as being ignored. That may not make a difference to you, but it is a difference. Personally, I think ND goofed in NOT consulting Bishop D’Arcy before the invitation.

I’m inclined to agree with you most of the time, but in this case I suspect he and the Bishop don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things, and Fr. Jenkins didn’t ask the local Bishop because he knew exactly what he’d say anyway. People do that all the time. Teenagers do it to their parents, employees do it to their bosses, and it would come as no surprise to learn that priests and bishops do it too.

The letter that someone posted by Bishop D’Acy after the fact kind of struck the tone of an angry dad at an insubordinate teenager, which I had to laugh at just a little since he reminded me of my own dad when I still lived with my parents. “I don’t care if all the other Catholic colleges say their bishops would let them do it, you’re still not allowed!”

 

[elts1956]

“Well after their birth”? As far as I know, Obama doesn’t support allowing infanticide. If you’re referring to the Illinois bill he voted against, Obama has said repeatedly that he voted against it because it was poorly written and contained a lot of vague language, not because he wants to kill babies or anything like that. If you’re familiar with state government, legislators do this all the time, especially the minority party. They come up with a bill that on the surface sounds like it should be a law, but put provisions in it that the other party would never vote for. Then when election time comes around, they point to that bill and say “look what my opponent voted against!” Both Democrats and Republicans do this all the time. Joe Biden did it with his “Violence Against Women Act”. A lot of senators voted against that one, not because they support violence against women, but because it expanded the role of federal courts to an inappropriate degree. But come campaign time, he used their votes opposing the bill as a weapon against his opponents.

My niece and nephew are already born, but even before they were, it’s not like Obama didn’t want them to live. And it’s not like there was nothing stopping my sister-in-law from getting an abortion. There was plenty stopping her: her desire for a family, her family, my brother, her religious beliefs, etc. If we’re serious about combating abortion, I think we need to pursue it through these avenues more, rather that focus solely on changing secular law.

In his press conference Wednesday, Obama distinctly said that FOCA is not a priority for Congress or his administration. Is that your idea of “enthusiastic support”?

He lies. Congress is passing it piece meal, under the radar while claiming it has nothing to do with abortion.

 

[mapleoak]

I can’t take you seriously. You’re not very bright, you never admit it when you’re wrong, and you come across as quite arrogant.

That’s your excuse for lack of having a rational argument.

Plus, you have such a short memory span that you apparently don’t realize I’ve already answered most of your questions, often several times.

Funny. Seems I asked if you were aware that Obama supports infanticide on multiple occasions.

But that’s just the way you are, and there’s nothing I or anyone else can do to change that.

People tend to resort to ad hominem type arguments when they feel they are losing ground. It is a psychological anomaly.

However, since this question was asked by someone else too, I’ll answer it. I’m sure you’ll forget my answer right away, but maybe someone else won’t.

The Mexico City Policy forbids all overseas NGOs that receive US money from performing abortions or actively promoting them. However, this condition is extremely broad, and it prevents funding from going to a number of organizations that, when given all the facts, few people would disapprove of. Take the UNFPA, for instance. They provide health services in many developing countries, and have prevented millions of abortions in China. However, in order to operate in certain countries like China, the Philippines, and South Africa, they may be required by law to inform women of abortion as an option. Under the Mexico City Policy, this precludes the entire organization from receiving any US funding, even though they perform no abortions themselves.

As a result, organizations that primarily support forms of family planning that aren’t abortion end up losing funding, and thus can’t support these methods, so women end up not doing anything about trying to avoid getting pregnant until they’re already pregnant. Essentially, the Mexico City Policy indirectly causes more abortions than it prevents.

Are you suggesting that it is morally acceptable to advise women that abortion is an option in order to receive funding?

 

[mapleoak]

During the campaign I heard Obama with his own mouth say, I don’t want my girls punished with a baby…I will sign FOCA…It says a lot when a man views an innocent baby as a punishment

I wonder if he would think he was his mother’s punishment?

In fact his own words were “The first thing I’d do as president is sign the FOCA bill, that’s the first thing I’d do”. How’s that for changing his position since 2007?

 

[fix]

Obviously, not everyone thinks as you do that the President is “pro-abortion” and if you listened to his recent new conference the other night you might realize that yourself.

Yes, he is “pro-choice” but for most people that’s not the same as calling someone “pro-abortion.”

So called pro choice is pro abortion. To claim otherwise is disingenuous. People can obfuscate all they want, but that cannot change the truth of the matter.

 

[mapleoak]

Obviously, not everyone thinks as you do that the President is “pro-abortion” and if you listened to his recent new conference the other night you might realize that yourself.

Yes, he is “pro-choice” but for most people that’s not the same as calling someone “pro-abortion.”

What it comes down to is the perception that people will have coming from a Catholic University, is that the president’s moral character is something to either hold in high regard, or even perceive that his anti-life stance is not something a Catholic in good conscience needs to even be concerned about.

 

[mapleoak]

There have only been two pro-choice presidents, Obama and Clinton. One other president, Jimmy Carter, is pro-life but has disavowed the pro-life movement because he believes, as I do, that their priorities are misplaced.

Everyone keeps claiming Obama is so extremely pro-abortion, but I can’t see how he’s any more so than Clinton.

It would be no different if ND were to honor Clinton in like manner.

 

[fix]

What it comes down to is the perception that people will have coming from a Catholic University, is that the president’s moral character is something to either hold in high regard, or even perceive that his anti-life stance is not something a Catholic in good conscience needs to even be concerned about.

Has this been posted yet?