pretty girl...

[Makerteacher]

karisue:

Scanty clothing, IMO, is a sign of low self esteem.

Yep yep yap! You are right on the mark.

I’d venture to say that 99% of the girls over about age 12 who dress “scantily” (to be charitable) do so with full intent and knowledge that they are thereby more attractive to men. They may only want the looks and be upset when they get words or offers, but they mean to do what they do, because it makes them feel better about themselves.

In a secular society, which values image over almost everything else, this behavior on the girls part is a natural consequence. Beauty is valued: so they try try try to be what society says is “beautiful.”

Our job is to introduce them to TRUE beauty and show them the TRUE source of our value: our position as daughter of Jesus Christ.

 

[Mijoy2]

KathieAnn:

I do take issue with this ‘I’m just “appreciating” her God-given beauty’ line. One man went so far as to say he appreciated the physique of some woman jogger and thought that was okay. .

I do appreciate the entirety of the post that this quote came from. I also sympathize with it a great deal. But…what is one to do? A man can no more keep his eyes of attractive women in this crowded world then he can stay dry at the beach in the summer time. I really don’t understand, nor do I see how it can make sense, that arbitrarily viewing a sight that comes your way, and experiencing the natural effects of this sight, is in itself sinful. Or for that matter, avoidable.

 

[SocaliCatholic]

I have a problem with opinions from both sexes on both sides of this discussion.

I never undertood what good dressing modestly would do. Wouldn’t people still be still be people like we always have been?

Is lust a function of clothes, or is it a function of spiritual condition?

Are we mastered by our environment, or are we called to master our environment; whatever situation we may happen to find oursleves in?

If modest dress is in fact a good thing, as some claim, what do we do when we find ourselves in an environment where people are not modestly dressed?

Are we going to base our hope for chasity or maritial fidelity on the uncertainity of people modestly dressed, or are we going to base our hopes on the certainty of faith in Christ?

If someone is fully covered, but has an attractive face, are we to cover that too?

I believe salvation from the tempation to lust cannot be found in modest dress, but rather the strength of our faith in Christ

 

[Mike_Rainville]

If in doubt, it couldn’t hurt to go to confession.

If her dress is immodest and she is aware of it, as a girl constantly tugging at her skirt obviously is, if she were a Catholic or Christian, it would be sinful for her, and she would have some culpability for the sins of anyone who looked at her sinfully.

If she did not consider her dress immodest, through ignorance, the she might expect punishment for her own immodesty and the sins she caused, but receive “fewer stripes.”

Since immodesty is everywhere, men can only expect it and be prepared to take off their glasses, to look away, or to see without looking.

What I find best of all, in these circumstance, such as public advertising, is to focus on her as a person, to focus on her face and eyes, to consider that she was a baby with parents and family, to thank God for the gift of her beauty and most of all to pray for her soul.

By looking away we can protect her from temporal and eternal punishment ahe will have to suffer, as real men should.

Women who notice that immodest dress REDUCES their ability to get attention may finally decide to switch to modest and feminine attire, which leads men to respect them more easily and brings out the best natural protective and affectionate inclinations in men.

 

[dream_wanderer]

Mike Rainville:

Women who notice that immodest dress REDUCES their ability to get attention may finally decide to switch to modest and feminine attire, which leads men to respect them more easily and brings out the best natural protective and affectionate inclinations in men.

I agree in part with this…but some of these posts are giving the impression that men are just at the mercy of their sex, they are victims, cannot help what they do and are controlled by their environment. I think that’s one of the things women are having a hard time with. We are taught to be responsible for our own actions but someone this one thing is the exception. Men are wired differently and we can’t do a thing about it. That is where it gets a bit confusing to some of us.

I really don’t know if men have a natural protective nature or not…I’ve been in some countries where men could care less about the women…the women are modestly dressed but really not respected all that much. I think a great deal of it is cultural.

I wonder if KathieAnn and Shelby think that I did something wrong because I noticed Rob Lowe on a tv show? I don’t think I did…I didn’t sit there in front of my husband and stare at him or giggle like a school girl at a boy band concert…I just noticed him. I didn’t in anyway compare him to my husband. If it wasn’t wrong for me…I don’t think its wrong for a man to just notice a pretty woman as long as he isnt’ being rude or crass about it.

I honestly don’t think any man who posts here who might be sitting with his wife would suddenly turn into a cave man…sitting there with his tongue hanging out as a pretty woman walked by…that would be crass beyond belief. To even give her an overlong stare would be wrong. However…the minute you do the wife feels diminished. Why is he looking at her instead of me? I’m right here…why aren’t I measuring up? Suddenly even the prettiest of wives can feel ‘less than’. It doesn’t help that out there in la-la land men cheat on the prettiest of actresses and singers. A lot of men just don’t understand that. To them…the woman walking by has nothing to do with the wife by his side. That’s a bit incomprehsible to the wife. The best advice I can give is for men to just not look…and for women, when the men do slip up to not over react.

dream wanderer

 

[Shelby_Grace]

Hi Everyone,

What a good discussion! I guess KathieAnn and I would make great friends, huh!

I appreciate what everyone is saying…Upon contemplating this topic lately I have found myself gravitating towards losing the pants and my girls and I decided on wearing modest dresses to Mass in the am and leave it on all day throughout my errands. Hence, this comment:…

Women who notice that immodest dress REDUCES their ability to get attention may finally decide to switch to modest and feminine attire, which leads men to respect them more easily and brings out the best natural protective and affectionate inclinations in men.
*__________________
Yours truly,
Mike Rainville
*
Shelby again:
… was proven to be true at least in the reactions of those we came into contact with. I got a lot of smiles from people in general. Doors got held open for us by men…the Wal-mart checker, a gal, said “What’der you all dressed up for!” We told her we had just came from Holy Mass. She made a distasteful face but we chatted her up until she seemed to like us again…and at the library a girl working there asked what we were dressed up for and she broke into a huge conversation on how her family was Catholic and she missed saying the Rosary. Her brother would be off to war soon & one already was in Iraq and she asked us to pray for their safety. I had the opportunity to suggest they re-start up their family tradition and I re-invited her to the 7:00 am Mass. She thought that was a great idea. She said, “I’m sooo impressed by you ma’am. Your girls are lucky to have you!”
That made my day. I felt really pretty that day.
I think I’ll buy some more dresses…

Love in Jesus,
Shelby Grace

 

[ppcpilot]

Well guys/gals, I can honestly say I do not think lustfully of any women any more. I can look now and not think ‘naked’. I have had a problem with pornography in the past…I was an altar server in 6thish grade, and our priest would take the altar servers up to this nice camp place he had built. No, he didn’t molest us or anything, but he let us hunt and shoot guns at night (not all of the altar boys were good people), drink, (gave us some unconsecrated wine), introduced us to his nieces, gave us keys to the car, and even showed one of the guys his collection of pornography…I’m not talking ‘tastefull’ stuff, I’m talking about nasty…like ‘Adult Cinema Review’. I guess after that I thought porn was fine. This is the first time I’ve ever told anyone about this…

This board has helped me tremendously. I have joined the Confraternity of the Rosary, pray the Rosary at least 5 times a week, and am trying to get into God’s best graces after a big slap in the head…(thought I was dying)…

So anywho, thanks for the encouragement and the great ideas…I hope I didn’t make any of my Catholic sisters upset…My wife does make me gaga, I tell her that all of the time, and I don’t want anyone else. I just want to see people for who they are, not what they look like…I have come to realize that God is the only reason we are here, and the only reason to live for…not boats, planes, money, success…doing His will only.

I am sorry for rambling, but I just wanted to get all of this out. There are so many people who want to attack the Church and it seems most of it has to deal with sexual issues, (gay, celabacy, ABC, etc…) and I am just sick of hearing about how we are not liberal enough! I hope others get a slap in the head as I did and can truly believe that we are here to serve our heavenly Father.

Ladies, dress normally…it’s us males that have the problem!

 

[Black_Jaque]

“The best advice I can give is for men to just not look…”

This is excellent advice. However, we men need your women’s help. Dress modestly, and encourage your sisters to do the same. Together, we can defeat the sin.

What a neat story Shelby! Something occurred to me. There are two ways a woman can dress. One way is to get men to buy you drinks. The other way is to get men to open doors.

 

[perpetua]

Shelby, Kathie Ann, I agree with you both to some extent. I trust my husband completely, and I would be completely shattered to know that he had seen some little ‘trollop’ at the grocery store and then was having images of her naked! It would completely break my heart to know this. I’m crying just thinking about it. Rationally, I know that this is possible and that it doesn’t mean he wanted it to happen, and it doesn’t mean he doesn’t love me. Thank God, he would never let me know if such a thing happened or has happened. It’s another good reason why we are not our spouses confessors…

Men, please don’t hurt your wives by ever telling them that you have imagined other women naked, intentionally or not. I try to keep myself fit and attractive for my husband, but stretch marks and sagging are a fact of life. Unless I were to spend thousands of dollars on surgery, I will never be as “beautiful” as I once was. My husband, however, manages to make me feel that he is more attracted to me now than he was when we met (in college with me wearing miniskirts). I don’t say that he makes me feel more beautiful (I don’t think that is possible as I can look at stretch marks and be realistic), though he tells me all the time that I am beautiful… He does make me feel loved and cherished, though.

 

[Tom]

Folks, I am having a really hard time visualizing these scantily clad young beauties, if you could, please send pictures to: JustJoking@givemeabreak.com.

 

[dream_wanderer]

Black Jaque:

This is excellent advice. However, we men need your women’s help. Dress modestly, and encourage your sisters to do the same. Together, we can defeat the sin.

.

I think we pretty much agreed that women should dress modestly. That’s the given here.

My point was for those times when there is a sudden occurence and the man in his the presence of his wife. He shouldn’t look. Period. People overcome all kinds of temptations every day. It can be done.

dream wanderer

 

[misericordie]

I for one love to admire buety, though custody of the eyes is the ideal thing it is not always possible.

 

[AnnieD]

Glad you don’t think lustfully of any other women anymore, ppcpilot. Got me so riled up, my whole post disappeared.

That was some priest you had, when you were an altar boy. It’s surprising he wasn’t reported for his actions.

Annie

 

[moedom]

Salmon:

That reminds me of the young man going to confession. He struggles a bit and the priest offers to help him to review his conscience.

Priest: Do you entertain sexual thoughts?

Penitent: No, Father… They entertain me.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[pittsburghjeff]

Shelby Grace:

Dear Martino,

I apologize for my offensive question. I see it annoyed you. I wasn’t trying to get anyone off topic. I just couldn’t get myself to feel free enough to start a whole new topic on one odd question! I really just wanted reassurance that normal men wouldn’t be turned on by their daughters. And I am hopeful that I am at a place here where normal spiritual healthy men can be found. I asked my husband after telling him of this discussion," Honey, would a normal man get aroused by seeing their 15 yr daughter in skimpy outfits?"
He said, “Well, I wouldn’t think so. I don’t know.”
I expected/hoped for a more definitive answer, I guess, so I asked the question on this board.

Thanks for answering my question.

Shelby,

If it makes you feel any better or worse, as someone who prosecutes sexual assault crimes for a living that there are also women out there who are attracted to their own sons. I put one of them in prison.

So, I guess if you ask yourself the same question about if it is normal for women to be attracted to their own sons, you will answer your own question with respect to men…

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Becky58:

Maybe she should have been wearing a burkha. I’m all for modesty, but that’s a bit much.

When I was a young teen and my brothers were in high school, they told me that if women could read minds, we’d all wear burkhas. (And avoid eye contact, too… probably so we wouldn’t smack them!)

 

[carrieloon]

I can honestly say that the thought of my husband being weak and a sinner does not bother me. If he looks at another woman and takes it too far, I would not be devastated. If he did it right in front of me, I would be VERY angry–as I think that is completely disrespectful–but I do not hold up him to a standard of perfection. He is a human being with weaknesses and he fails, a lot, and goes to confession for these sins.

Having said that, I think the reason I am so easygoing about this is that in my marriage I probably struggle with the wandering eyes (or really, wandering mind) more than he does. I can tell you that it is NOT as simple as saying “Just don’t do it” either.
Think of gossip or resentment or whatever is YOUR sin, your cross that you bear day in and day out, and then spend a week making a conscious effort to break it. See how often you fail and maybe you can gain some sympathy and charity towards the fellas.

Also, I think that much of the panic-y feeling in thinking about your husbands being prone to lust is low self esteem in yourself. This is NOT your husbands problem. Nothing that he does and no amount of him cherishing you will rectify this. It has to come from within. This is such a pithy and frequently tossed around saying, but boy is it true. I have spent so much time in my life feeling this way–that I wanted him to validate who I was as a woman and pump me up when I am feeling less-than-attractive. This is not his responsibility. It is nice when he remembers but it’s not part of his job duties, lol. My self esteem and how I feel about myself is MY responsibility.
I have found that getting in good physical shape, and staying that way, has had a profound effect on how I see myself. Also I make sure that I make some sort of attempt (often a lame one!) at looking attractive, even though I am a stay at home mother to little kids.
In other words, if he still wants to look even though I am at the top of my game, then that is clearly HIS problem and his sin. I will have nothing to do with it and the burden is entirely on him. The burden is on him, anyway, but at least I won’t have to deal with that nagging voice in my mind that says “he wishes I looked like THAT…” etc.
It allows my esteem to stay high and I validate myself.

I wish I could say that I am like this all the time. Not so! I fail so much it is ridiculous.

However, my original point was that A. I think it is rude to make a big deal of checking out other women in the presence of your wife–how disgusting; but B. Men and women alike are sinners…although perhaps their Most Frequented Sins are different.

As to the original poster, I think that was the devil putting those images in your brain repeatedly. If you keep this in mind, you will want them out of your head asap.
I know that I am most bombarded with these thoughts in church. There is an awfully handsome man in our church and I make a quick look to see where he (and his family!! Lord, help me to STOP THIS) is sitting and then I do not glance that way again. I know my weak spots and avoid them like the plague.

 

[pittsburghjeff]

carrieloon:

I have found that getting in good physical shape, and staying that way, has had a profound effect on how I see myself. Also I make sure that I make some sort of attempt (often a lame one!) at looking attractive, even though I am a stay at home mother to little kids.
In other words, if he still wants to look even though I am at the top of my game, then that is clearly HIS problem and his sin. I will have nothing to do with it and the burden is entirely on him. The burden is on him, anyway, but at least I won’t have to deal with that nagging voice in my mind that says “he wishes I looked like THAT…” etc.
It allows my esteem to stay high and I validate myself.

Carrie

Great post. I think that it is extremely important for both spouses to stay in shape as an act of love for the other. It also does wonders for your self-esteem.

Too many people use marriage as an excuse to “let yourself go.”

My wife and I exercise together at least 6 days every week. We go to the gymn three times a week and run about 15 miles a week. We do this first of all to stay healthy and take care of the bodies that God gave us. Secondly, we do it because we love eachother and want to look good for eachother. We don’t have children yet but when we do we already have plans about how we are going to take turns babysitting while the other excercises, buy a jogging stroller to run with our children, etc.

Not all of us will have the looks of movie stars. But we can control, to a certain extent, what we eat and how much we exercise. If you take someone in their 40’s who exercises every day and compare them to someone in their 40’s who has never exercised, it looks like they are 15 years apart in age.

We Christians, especially, tend to underestimate the value of exercise, and pan it off as “vanity.” But I think “letting yourself go” is really a selfish act. Yes, your husband/wife will love you still even if you let yourself go. But why not show them how much you love them by getting up an hour early to run on the treadmill and having a grilled chicken sandwich for lunch instead of a burger and fries. The bonus is that you will feel better, have more energy and live longer.

And as a sidenote, sometimes it is not the “results” you achieve by being healthy that count. Its the effort. The effort shows that you care about yourself and that you love your husband. As carrieloon says, “be at the top of your game.”

 

[hosea]

St Veronica:

You don’t think the girl has any responsiblity for her appearance? Being immodest can be a sin…she might well be ignorant of this…but that doesn’t mean she isn’t responsible and accountable for her dress (or lack of).

SV

I will be so glad when the “here’s my tummy” phase is over. Although I shudder at what our grand children will do to expose their sensuality.

I just look away and say “good job, God!”

 

[hosea]

KathieAnn:

I guess I’m just oversensitive, but, men, it does get tiresome to hear constantly how you all struggle with looking at good-looking girls. I’ve about had it with all the shows on Catholic radio aimed at helping men get over their porn addictions - the “you wouldn’t believe how many men struggle with this” kind of show. I didn’t know what this thread was about but didn’t expect to read what I did. It makes us 40 year old moms with 9 kids feel ugly and undesireable and wondering, “is there any guy who’s just really attracted to his wife, even if she has given her whole life to bear many children??” I’m not overweight but time takes its toll no matter what. I’m still attracted to my husband! Give me some hope - I’d like to hear from men who say “Gee, I just really am ga-ga for my wife!!” I think your men’s only conferences are the best place for this kind of banter! I think I question God’s design in this whole sexuality thing sometime - I’d like to still feel beautiful and attractive to my husband like all those young women apparently are, but ain’t no way for that to happen after so many years and so many kids. The very act that is supposed to be the sign of our covenant and our love is based (for its intensity) on physical appearance and “sex appeal” which is so fleeting! What was God thinking? Shouldn’t the covenantal act become more awesome with time? But everyone knows there is nothing like that early passion. I still want the intensity but definitely lack the sex appeal. Doesn’t seem fair!

Oh well!!

That’s why God gave a Godly husband the gift of seeing his wife of many years as “The bride of his youth.” I’ll bet your husband still sees you as his youthful bride everyday of his life. I knew my wife for 18 years before we wed 2 years ago. And she is 40+ now and I’m 50+. We still see eachother as 20+ year olds. And we’ll still be chasing each other around in our walkers when we’re in our 80’s and beyond. Gosh! There is nothing sexier than a wife who loves the Lord and yearns to keep her marriage filled with ‘early passion.’
I gotta go home and kiss my bride!
peace to all,
Terry