R
Rae
Guest
Les Richardson:
some good comments you made there!
- Status
O
oldschoolcath23
Guest
What really gets me is how an attractive woman will wear an extremely revealing outfit and then, when a guy looks at her, she gets angry about it!! It’s as if she doesn’t realize that she is sending out some very loud & clear signals to us guys…I’m wondering just what to blame this double-standard on…could it be feminism??
S
SteveG
Guest
Shelby Grace:
Some of us ARE gaga over our wives, don’t desire to have sex with anyone else, and are trying to live out the beauty of human sexuality as God intended and…STILL we struggle with this.
What will you say to me if I tell you that I was raised Catholic in name only. That my first exposure to pornography was at 12 years old from the porn my parents had laying all over the house? That since I had no understanding of my faith, and it was easy to jettison in my late teens and 20’s and then fall deeply into sexual addiction? I am truly thankful that God rescued me from all that and has begun to heal those wounds. But you don’t totally overcome those experiences overnight. They pervert your view of sexuality. It takes a lifetime of struggle to correct. A lifetime of picking up the cross and sometimes falling. Unfortunately, I think my experience is not that uncommon (or parts of it at least).
Ladies, please take it easy on us. Many of us ARE trying, but both biology and concupiscence are against us. I suspect that for most of us men, this particular weakness will only finally be rectified in purgatory.
Shelby. You are right, God did not make us this way, but Adam AND Eve’s choice put us in this predicament. I don’t think you can appreciate the difficulty of this for most men. It is the cross we are asked to bear in many cases. What is your cross? Shall I chastise you for failing to carry it perfectly each day?
Some of us ARE gaga over our wives, don’t desire to have sex with anyone else, and are trying to live out the beauty of human sexuality as God intended and…STILL we struggle with this.
What will you say to me if I tell you that I was raised Catholic in name only. That my first exposure to pornography was at 12 years old from the porn my parents had laying all over the house? That since I had no understanding of my faith, and it was easy to jettison in my late teens and 20’s and then fall deeply into sexual addiction? I am truly thankful that God rescued me from all that and has begun to heal those wounds. But you don’t totally overcome those experiences overnight. They pervert your view of sexuality. It takes a lifetime of struggle to correct. A lifetime of picking up the cross and sometimes falling. Unfortunately, I think my experience is not that uncommon (or parts of it at least).
Ladies, please take it easy on us. Many of us ARE trying, but both biology and concupiscence are against us. I suspect that for most of us men, this particular weakness will only finally be rectified in purgatory.
T
tobias
Guest
The Lord said ‘If at man looks at a woman with lust he has already commited adultery in his heart.’ So is the begining of this sin in the eyes or in the heart? It would seem to me that the sins origins lie within the heart and not in the eyes. Do not the eyes carry out the desires of the heart and the will? That is where to look, what to look at and how long. If the sin is in the seeing then adultery is commited in the eyes and not in the heart which would contradict our Lord. But then someone will point out that our Lord said ‘If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out.’ and ‘If your right hand causes you to sin cut it off.’ For it is better to enter heaven maimed than to have your whole body thrown into gehenna. Since we know our Lord was not advocating mutilation of the body it finds its truest sense in Paul"s theology of the “body of christ”. That is, seperation of the members of the Church who cause others to sin. I maintain that all sin starts in the heart.
S
Shelby_Grace
Guest
Hi Again!
This post is not directed to any individual, I will just use the word, “you” for literary purposes.
I recognize that some men, apparently even good Catholic ones, struggle with this “cross”…although to me it seems like a self-imposed one at times. Here’s what I mean.
You look at porn. Get excited. Indulge. Over and again.
Then try out what you’ve seen. Over and again. Then have a spiritual conversion-Hooray! God be praised.
Knowing that you have this “cross”…a weakness to fleshly wantoness so to speak, it would seem that one would do absolutely anything they could to avoid this sin that puts more in Hell than any other sin…
Turn off the TV. Practically every channel has trash on it designed to ensnare you! Unless you are watching EWTN. Victoria Secret commercials come on so fast you get the image in your head before you have a chance to avert your eyes. And the Dish or cable-get rid of it unless you can control yourself. Stop googling other women and young girls. Take control of yourselves…go to confession every single time you check someone out. Confession will wipe out any problem.
If I had something wrong with me that put me in danger of Hell, you can be sure that I would do everything in my power to get rid of the temptation…do not allow yourself to go to the beaches or public pools. Sorry but are the quickie glances behind your sunglasses worth an eternity in Hell? If so those must really be some special girls you are looking at! Not worth it if you ask me.
You won’t die without TV or seeing barely clothed women/girls…
Today, with the way females dress/undress I can see how hard it must be. I do not dress like that anymore. My daughters will never dress like this. They were raised modest and at 6 and 10, they respect themselves and their bodies as God’s property.
I do think females are in grave sin when they dress like this…I knew exactly what I was doing when I did it. I wanted attention from men/boys-when I was a teen.
Men who want to help their daughters with the dressing issue should first pay proper fatherly attention to them telling them they are pretty and showing them safe physically demonstrative affection. Hugs. This helps their self-esteem and perhaps may cut down on the need to get attention from men later.
Please excuse the uncomfortable question still resounding in my mind: Do men get aroused by their own teen daughters who dress provocatively?
Love in Jesus,
Shelby Grace
This post is not directed to any individual, I will just use the word, “you” for literary purposes.
I recognize that some men, apparently even good Catholic ones, struggle with this “cross”…although to me it seems like a self-imposed one at times. Here’s what I mean.
You look at porn. Get excited. Indulge. Over and again.
Then try out what you’ve seen. Over and again. Then have a spiritual conversion-Hooray! God be praised.
Knowing that you have this “cross”…a weakness to fleshly wantoness so to speak, it would seem that one would do absolutely anything they could to avoid this sin that puts more in Hell than any other sin…
Turn off the TV. Practically every channel has trash on it designed to ensnare you! Unless you are watching EWTN. Victoria Secret commercials come on so fast you get the image in your head before you have a chance to avert your eyes. And the Dish or cable-get rid of it unless you can control yourself. Stop googling other women and young girls. Take control of yourselves…go to confession every single time you check someone out. Confession will wipe out any problem.
If I had something wrong with me that put me in danger of Hell, you can be sure that I would do everything in my power to get rid of the temptation…do not allow yourself to go to the beaches or public pools. Sorry but are the quickie glances behind your sunglasses worth an eternity in Hell? If so those must really be some special girls you are looking at! Not worth it if you ask me.
You won’t die without TV or seeing barely clothed women/girls…
Today, with the way females dress/undress I can see how hard it must be. I do not dress like that anymore. My daughters will never dress like this. They were raised modest and at 6 and 10, they respect themselves and their bodies as God’s property.
I do think females are in grave sin when they dress like this…I knew exactly what I was doing when I did it. I wanted attention from men/boys-when I was a teen.
Men who want to help their daughters with the dressing issue should first pay proper fatherly attention to them telling them they are pretty and showing them safe physically demonstrative affection. Hugs. This helps their self-esteem and perhaps may cut down on the need to get attention from men later.
Please excuse the uncomfortable question still resounding in my mind: Do men get aroused by their own teen daughters who dress provocatively?
Love in Jesus,
Shelby Grace
P
Pray4Life
Guest
First I agree completely about raising girls modestly and being sure they have proper fatherly involvement.
Second, Shelby, I can tell you’re hurting, and your last message before this one was very sad. I’m sorry for all that you’ve been through. But a man who unthinkingly glances at a woman in a tube top and then looks away, or who struggles with sexual temptations of any kind, is no worse than any other sinner. And we are ALL sinners. We ALL have weaknesses. And it is not practical or humanly possible to excise all sources of possible temptation from our lives. As long as we are the Church Militant there WILL be temptations. If a woman struggles with gossip, and we apply the same advice you give to men, you’re saying she should never speak or listen to anyone again, because every conversation would be a source of temptation to listen to, spread, or start gossip. The fact is, none of us are perfect. We all have different struggles and we all fall. That’s why our Lord gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and further strengthens us for the battle through the Holy Eucharist.
But going to Confession each time a man “checks a woman out” is going a bit overboard, in my view. It’s inviting scrupulosity, which is a source of pain and misery and spiritually unhealthy. Unless a man is DELIBERATELY and premeditatedly “checking a woman out,” and I don’t mean an unthinking look, realizing what he’s doing, then immediately ceasing and moving his mind in another direction, he has not sinned.
You heard me. He has not sinned. Sin is a choice. He has to choose to do it. And you can’t accidentally commit a mortal sin. Being tempted is NOT A SIN! Giving into the temptation is. Jesus Himself experienced temptation. It’s a daily battle for everyone who struggles with these temptations, men or women. And sometimes we do fail. That’s life, that’s being human. We just have to pick ourselves up and keep plodding on. We all have our crosses, and it is in carrying these crosses that we make our way to heaven. Not in giving up and trying to be a draft dodger instead.
I know this post probably won’t make any difference, but I want you to know you’re in my prayers. I’m so sorry for all the hurt you’ve been through and I hope you will find true peace.
Second, Shelby, I can tell you’re hurting, and your last message before this one was very sad. I’m sorry for all that you’ve been through. But a man who unthinkingly glances at a woman in a tube top and then looks away, or who struggles with sexual temptations of any kind, is no worse than any other sinner. And we are ALL sinners. We ALL have weaknesses. And it is not practical or humanly possible to excise all sources of possible temptation from our lives. As long as we are the Church Militant there WILL be temptations. If a woman struggles with gossip, and we apply the same advice you give to men, you’re saying she should never speak or listen to anyone again, because every conversation would be a source of temptation to listen to, spread, or start gossip. The fact is, none of us are perfect. We all have different struggles and we all fall. That’s why our Lord gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and further strengthens us for the battle through the Holy Eucharist.
But going to Confession each time a man “checks a woman out” is going a bit overboard, in my view. It’s inviting scrupulosity, which is a source of pain and misery and spiritually unhealthy. Unless a man is DELIBERATELY and premeditatedly “checking a woman out,” and I don’t mean an unthinking look, realizing what he’s doing, then immediately ceasing and moving his mind in another direction, he has not sinned.
You heard me. He has not sinned. Sin is a choice. He has to choose to do it. And you can’t accidentally commit a mortal sin. Being tempted is NOT A SIN! Giving into the temptation is. Jesus Himself experienced temptation. It’s a daily battle for everyone who struggles with these temptations, men or women. And sometimes we do fail. That’s life, that’s being human. We just have to pick ourselves up and keep plodding on. We all have our crosses, and it is in carrying these crosses that we make our way to heaven. Not in giving up and trying to be a draft dodger instead.
I know this post probably won’t make any difference, but I want you to know you’re in my prayers. I’m so sorry for all the hurt you’ve been through and I hope you will find true peace.
M
martino
Guest
Shelby Grace:
Shelby, let me put it this way; we all know that an unfortunate number of men sexually molest their children, that is fact. The answer to your question is that yes there are some men that would be turned on by their own daughters, and as perverted as that is you should not seem so surprised unless you have lived under a rock for the last few decades. Im certainly not endorsing it but I am simply saying that it is a fact of life, and those people need help. Now that we have completely gotten off the beaten path…this really has nothing to do with the point of this thread because you are talking about someone with a serious problem and most of the others are talking about otherwise normal men being tempted by scantily clad females.
S
Shelby_Grace
Guest
Dear Pray4Life,
I totally agree with your opinion on all of us being sinners and needing to overcome temptation.
When I wrote, “checking a woman/girl out” I meant in the way that would be a sin. Not a mere glance, unthinking and unnoticing their attributes…just to clarify.
I realize it is very hard for men to give up watching TV but I still think it is a great idea. Then they would have more time to devote to their children and wives…a lot of men consider it “work” to have to hold a conversation with their families nowdays. If they would only give it a chance they would learn to get to know their own kids and wives.Of course, I apply that to women as well equally.
The occasion of sin is heavy for TV watchers because of the content of the commericals and the lousy programming choices with practically naked women in them. How many men are able to look away so quickly that they do not get the flash backs in their minds. (Or some women it seems with shirtless men).
In the normal course of a conversation, a woman has great control because hearing gossip isn’t a sin unless she continues it by encouraging it…like, “Oh, really? what else?”. Instead she can say, “Let’s not talk about unpleasant things! You know, I love your hair today…”-Gets 'em every time. Then you have conquered the temptation. It seems so much easier to me to overcome gossip than what you men subject yourselves with…the images that you claim are so hard to bear:I believe you. It will never make sense to me…what men do and how they act at times, and the excuses they come up with! -Present company excluded…not directed at men here…
Why would you think your post wouldn’t make a difference? It does. Thank you for your kind words. And the prayers are appreciated and welcomed and returned!
Love in Jesus,
Shelby Grace
I totally agree with your opinion on all of us being sinners and needing to overcome temptation.
When I wrote, “checking a woman/girl out” I meant in the way that would be a sin. Not a mere glance, unthinking and unnoticing their attributes…just to clarify.
I realize it is very hard for men to give up watching TV but I still think it is a great idea. Then they would have more time to devote to their children and wives…a lot of men consider it “work” to have to hold a conversation with their families nowdays. If they would only give it a chance they would learn to get to know their own kids and wives.Of course, I apply that to women as well equally.
The occasion of sin is heavy for TV watchers because of the content of the commericals and the lousy programming choices with practically naked women in them. How many men are able to look away so quickly that they do not get the flash backs in their minds. (Or some women it seems with shirtless men).
In the normal course of a conversation, a woman has great control because hearing gossip isn’t a sin unless she continues it by encouraging it…like, “Oh, really? what else?”. Instead she can say, “Let’s not talk about unpleasant things! You know, I love your hair today…”-Gets 'em every time. Then you have conquered the temptation. It seems so much easier to me to overcome gossip than what you men subject yourselves with…the images that you claim are so hard to bear:I believe you. It will never make sense to me…what men do and how they act at times, and the excuses they come up with! -Present company excluded…not directed at men here…
Why would you think your post wouldn’t make a difference? It does. Thank you for your kind words. And the prayers are appreciated and welcomed and returned!
Love in Jesus,
Shelby Grace
S
Shelby_Grace
Guest
Dear Martino,
I apologize for my offensive question.
I see it annoyed you. I wasn’t trying to get anyone off topic. I just couldn’t get myself to feel free enough to start a whole new topic on one odd question! I really just wanted reassurance that normal men wouldn’t be turned on by their daughters. And I am hopeful that I am at a place here where normal spiritual healthy men can be found. I asked my husband after telling him of this discussion," Honey, would a normal man get aroused by seeing their 15 yr daughter in skimpy outfits?"
He said, “Well, I wouldn’t think so. I don’t know.”
I expected/hoped for a more definitive answer, I guess, so I asked the question on this board.
Thanks for answering my question.
I apologize for my offensive question.
I see it annoyed you. I wasn’t trying to get anyone off topic. I just couldn’t get myself to feel free enough to start a whole new topic on one odd question! I really just wanted reassurance that normal men wouldn’t be turned on by their daughters. And I am hopeful that I am at a place here where normal spiritual healthy men can be found. I asked my husband after telling him of this discussion," Honey, would a normal man get aroused by seeing their 15 yr daughter in skimpy outfits?"He said, “Well, I wouldn’t think so. I don’t know.”
I expected/hoped for a more definitive answer, I guess, so I asked the question on this board.
Thanks for answering my question.
O
OhioBob
Guest
Shelby Grace:
A couple of stream of consciousness thoughts regarding this thread:
Just to get on record early, any man who is sexually aroused by his own daughter (skimpy outfits or not) needs to have his head examined.
Sure kids today dress shockingly (I would imagine our parents thought that about us too, but kids these days have taken things to an entirely new level). Young girls dress like “trollops” (as I euphamistically refer to them to my own 13 y.o daughter) and boys dress like hoods (my Grandmother would call them “bums” which might be more descriptive). To me that is as much a reflection of the parents as the children. Too many kids today seem to have taken over authority from their parents and too many parents don’t have the guts to step up.
As far as this whole “why do men look at women and what do they think when they do” thing, I’m sure all men will look at a beautiful woman (like they will look at a beautiful sunset, a beautiful power tool, or a beautiful '67 Camaro). Some have a problem separating appreciation from lust and need our prayers; most probably don’t (and they could use our prayers too).
Call me weird, but when I see a beautiful woman, I take a moment to appreciate her beauty after which my thoughts inevitably turn to my wife. I wouldn’t call my wife of 19 years classically beautiful (although I have always thought she was cute as the proverbial button), but she is all there is for me. To use the classic fishing saying, “I caught my limit” (it’s a guy thing). :tiphat:
I’ve always liked the sentiment that “Chicken George” said to his wife in ROOTS when they were both old and weathered by time - “Honey I don’t sees you with my eyes, I sees you with my heart”.
I think that sums up the inner beauty and attraction that remains long after outward beauty (hers as well as mine) fades away. Or just gets gray and chubby, in my case. 
Have faith ladies. While most all men might glance at a lovely woman, many times we are really seeing you.
First off, I wanted to say that I love the name Shelby. So much so that I named my daughter the same.Dear Martino,
I apologize for my offensive question.
He said, “Well, I wouldn’t think so. I don’t know.”
I expected/hoped for a more definitive answer, I guess, so I asked the question on this board.
Thanks for answering my question.
A couple of stream of consciousness thoughts regarding this thread:
Just to get on record early, any man who is sexually aroused by his own daughter (skimpy outfits or not) needs to have his head examined.
Sure kids today dress shockingly (I would imagine our parents thought that about us too, but kids these days have taken things to an entirely new level). Young girls dress like “trollops” (as I euphamistically refer to them to my own 13 y.o daughter) and boys dress like hoods (my Grandmother would call them “bums” which might be more descriptive). To me that is as much a reflection of the parents as the children. Too many kids today seem to have taken over authority from their parents and too many parents don’t have the guts to step up.
As far as this whole “why do men look at women and what do they think when they do” thing, I’m sure all men will look at a beautiful woman (like they will look at a beautiful sunset, a beautiful power tool, or a beautiful '67 Camaro). Some have a problem separating appreciation from lust and need our prayers; most probably don’t (and they could use our prayers too).
Call me weird, but when I see a beautiful woman, I take a moment to appreciate her beauty after which my thoughts inevitably turn to my wife. I wouldn’t call my wife of 19 years classically beautiful (although I have always thought she was cute as the proverbial button), but she is all there is for me. To use the classic fishing saying, “I caught my limit” (it’s a guy thing). :tiphat:
I’ve always liked the sentiment that “Chicken George” said to his wife in ROOTS when they were both old and weathered by time - “Honey I don’t sees you with my eyes, I sees you with my heart”.
I think that sums up the inner beauty and attraction that remains long after outward beauty (hers as well as mine) fades away. Or just gets gray and chubby, in my case. Have faith ladies. While most all men might glance at a lovely woman, many times we are really seeing you.
D
dream_wanderer
Guest
What a nice post. I’m glad there are men out there who have that kind of attitude. And its so true for all of us.
We all admire beauty wherever it is and it doesn’t have to mean anything else than that. Like OhioBob said…a sunset (although I don’t know about the power tools…but the Camaro is a big agreement!
) or anything that grabs our attention that we think is beautiful. The beach…the view from a mountain…anything that God gives us to admire. Sometimes I also admire a beautiful woman especially is she is beautiful on the inside as well.
Today I was watching a re-run of the West Wing and I thought “Rob Lowe sure is pretty!” but it wasn’t in a lustful way at all. Even if he were my next door neighbor and I saw him mowing the lawn or whatever I still might think "What a handsom man’ but admire him because he is handsome, not because I ’ wanted’ him in any way and then I would go back to reading my book or whatever…but no matter how good looking I wouldn’t want to leave my husband for him. Hubby is plenty handsome in his own right but he also has lots of other things going for him as well.
dream wanderer
I’m glad there are men out there who have that kind of attitude. And its so true for all of us.We all admire beauty wherever it is and it doesn’t have to mean anything else than that. Like OhioBob said…a sunset (although I don’t know about the power tools…but the Camaro is a big agreement!
) or anything that grabs our attention that we think is beautiful. The beach…the view from a mountain…anything that God gives us to admire. Sometimes I also admire a beautiful woman especially is she is beautiful on the inside as well.Today I was watching a re-run of the West Wing and I thought “Rob Lowe sure is pretty!” but it wasn’t in a lustful way at all. Even if he were my next door neighbor and I saw him mowing the lawn or whatever I still might think "What a handsom man’ but admire him because he is handsome, not because I ’ wanted’ him in any way and then I would go back to reading my book or whatever…but no matter how good looking I wouldn’t want to leave my husband for him. Hubby is plenty handsome in his own right but he also has lots of other things going for him as well.
dream wanderer
O
OhioBob
Guest
dream wanderer:
)
I think women have a gene which suppresses power tool envy and substitutes an insatiable desire for cute, uncomfortable shoes.
Like a fondness for power tools! (I hope it’s not just meHubby is plenty handsome in his own right but he also has lots of other things going for him as well.
)I think women have a gene which suppresses power tool envy and substitutes an insatiable desire for cute, uncomfortable shoes.
S
system
Guest
E
EENS
Guest
I would think that what you did would be an imperfection (a venial sin at worst); however, the female has committed without doubt a mortal sin, whether or not you (or any man) did have such an image, it is hard to not define that as a mortal sin for her. God bless.
S
system
Guest
[If I had something wrong with me that put me in danger of Hell, you can be sure that I would do everything in my power to get rid of the temptation…
Gosh, must be nice not to have ‘something wrong with you’ (the effects of original sin?) that put you in the danger of Hell.
Sorry, Shelby, I’m being facetious, and I know you have a lot of emotion/history behind this.
But basically you’re asking men to avoid the entire culture (If the culture offends you, cut yourself off from it?).
It’s terrible that you had to go through the trauma that you apparently went through to bring you to your present level of understanding about this issue. It’s GREAT that you are raising modest girls. But you see, Shelby, by your own example of sensible parenting of girls, you are addressing and redressing the problem. Like other women who are as wise as you are, you are changing a little bit of that *culture that so wants to suck men down to the depths.
I say it again: If we women are the source of a man’s downfall, it’s UP TO US as individual women, as wives, as mothers, as sisters to do everything in our power to change the way we dress and the way the women around us dress.
There have been a few victories lately with teenage girls writing to department stores and demanding that they offer clothes that are not slutty for girls and teens. The stores have listened. The FCC is beginning to have some backbone about fining TV stations that spread indecency (‘wardrobe’ and ‘mouth’ malfunctions). The tide can change if we women take some action. There’s a whole lot we women can do to DEMAND that the culture change - more than just dressing ourselves and our daughters modestly.
Blaming men is easy; telling men to avoid contact with the culture is facile; changing our clothes and changing the culture is the real battle.
Gosh, must be nice not to have ‘something wrong with you’ (the effects of original sin?) that put you in the danger of Hell.
Sorry, Shelby, I’m being facetious, and I know you have a lot of emotion/history behind this.
But basically you’re asking men to avoid the entire culture (If the culture offends you, cut yourself off from it?).
It’s terrible that you had to go through the trauma that you apparently went through to bring you to your present level of understanding about this issue. It’s GREAT that you are raising modest girls. But you see, Shelby, by your own example of sensible parenting of girls, you are addressing and redressing the problem. Like other women who are as wise as you are, you are changing a little bit of that *culture that so wants to suck men down to the depths.
I say it again: If we women are the source of a man’s downfall, it’s UP TO US as individual women, as wives, as mothers, as sisters to do everything in our power to change the way we dress and the way the women around us dress.
There have been a few victories lately with teenage girls writing to department stores and demanding that they offer clothes that are not slutty for girls and teens. The stores have listened. The FCC is beginning to have some backbone about fining TV stations that spread indecency (‘wardrobe’ and ‘mouth’ malfunctions). The tide can change if we women take some action. There’s a whole lot we women can do to DEMAND that the culture change - more than just dressing ourselves and our daughters modestly.
Blaming men is easy; telling men to avoid contact with the culture is facile; changing our clothes and changing the culture is the real battle.
D
dream_wanderer
Guest
I find one thing rather weird. A long time ago a girl would go to Hollywood…naive and just wanted to be a star. The machine would take her in hand and make her color her hair or wear this or that or have her picture taken this way or that way etc etc. The young woman would just go along with it (I’m thinking along the lines of Marilyn Monroe…that type of thing). We could say they were victims of the star machine. Now days women supposedly have control of their careers but they are doing the exact same thing. 
Before they would say the women were exploited by those in power…not the women in essence exploit themselves. "I dress this way because I want to…not because some suit tells me to.’ and they act like its a great morale victory or something. Big whoop…you’re still dressing like a slut no matter who is in charge!
dream wanderer
Before they would say the women were exploited by those in power…not the women in essence exploit themselves. "I dress this way because I want to…not because some suit tells me to.’ and they act like its a great morale victory or something. Big whoop…you’re still dressing like a slut no matter who is in charge!dream wanderer
K
KathieAnn
Guest
I feel the same as you, Shelby. That is, it is incredibly hurtful to think of my husband being wowed by some pretty, young thing. Despite trying so hard to fill my void with the love and validation of Christ, I still feel shattered when I notice my husband glancing at some “tube top” (even though when I say ‘what are you looking at’ he invariably says ‘I don’t know what you’re talking about.’) I feel less loveable now that I feel my looks are fading - my husband doesn’t help by flagging so much in the romance area. I think it wouldn’t impact me so much if I felt more passion in our marriage and interest in me and spending time with me and keeping our romance alive. I’ve heard the men call this a cross and well, maybe it is, but the emotional pain it causes some women is no less a cross. That sexual attraction we feel, belongs to us. Think about it men, once we were a turn-on then, physically, we just drop off the map and no longer care whether our husbands think we’re beautiful? No, husbands would do well to think about this aspect of a woman instead of feeling picked on when we notice you’re looking.
I could make a concerted effort to check out every beautiful man I see and “appreciate God’s work” but I am so attuned to not looking because I’d never want my husband to feel how I feel. I make an extra effort when I’m with him. I think my husband thinks just what I’ve heard here “It’s not a sin to notice!” But maybe it is if you’re with your wife. If you see something out of the corner of your eye that could be something pretty, does it ruin your day to forego looking if for even a second?
I do take issue with this ‘I’m just “appreciating” her God-given beauty’ line. One man went so far as to say he appreciated the physique of some woman jogger and thought that was okay. The reason I have a problem with that is that it puts your guard down and allows you to think checking everything out is okay as long as you’re just “appreciating.” As St. Paul says, be careful that you think you are standing strong lest you should fall, too. I also doubt if men are not comparing to their wives in any way - then what makes someone VERY beautiful as compared to not - it’s a comparison thing even if not done conciously. I also kind of laugh a bit when someone says when he looks at a beautiful woman he thinks of his wife. These all sound like creative ways to validate your looking instead of training your eyes in the tradition of St. Francis. I could see a well-built guy out of the corner of my eye and never need to get the full picture because I’ve always been that way with my husband.
My husband was even dumb enough to tell me a few years back when he heard a talk somewhere or heard from someone that “looking isn’t a sin.” I told him I was happy for him. I know that’s sarcastic but the point is, if you’re hurting someone by glancing around in their presence, maybe there is sin involved. I can only imagine when I’m not around! Oh well.
I could make a concerted effort to check out every beautiful man I see and “appreciate God’s work” but I am so attuned to not looking because I’d never want my husband to feel how I feel. I make an extra effort when I’m with him. I think my husband thinks just what I’ve heard here “It’s not a sin to notice!” But maybe it is if you’re with your wife. If you see something out of the corner of your eye that could be something pretty, does it ruin your day to forego looking if for even a second?
I do take issue with this ‘I’m just “appreciating” her God-given beauty’ line. One man went so far as to say he appreciated the physique of some woman jogger and thought that was okay. The reason I have a problem with that is that it puts your guard down and allows you to think checking everything out is okay as long as you’re just “appreciating.” As St. Paul says, be careful that you think you are standing strong lest you should fall, too. I also doubt if men are not comparing to their wives in any way - then what makes someone VERY beautiful as compared to not - it’s a comparison thing even if not done conciously. I also kind of laugh a bit when someone says when he looks at a beautiful woman he thinks of his wife. These all sound like creative ways to validate your looking instead of training your eyes in the tradition of St. Francis. I could see a well-built guy out of the corner of my eye and never need to get the full picture because I’ve always been that way with my husband.
My husband was even dumb enough to tell me a few years back when he heard a talk somewhere or heard from someone that “looking isn’t a sin.” I told him I was happy for him. I know that’s sarcastic but the point is, if you’re hurting someone by glancing around in their presence, maybe there is sin involved. I can only imagine when I’m not around! Oh well.
D
dream_wanderer
Guest
I think some of it is the old ‘its so unfair’ cry. It is unfair. A woman should be able to dress the way she wants without having to endure unwanted attention. Why should we be the ones to change…why can’t they change? Why must they assume we are sending signals…? And on it goes. It can make a person angry at times…and you do wonder if men really can’t change or is it that they can change but they really don’t want to change and maybe its all part of some huge conspiracy to keep women down!
And part of it is what I call the romance culture ideals. If you love me you should love me so much that to look at any other woman would be laughable. I should take up all your time and attention. You should love me so much no other woman compares. I could be overweight and dowdy but if a supermodel walks by you shouldn’t even notice. Love demands all or nothing and that includes your eyes.
I admit even though I’m on their side that ideal would be kind of hard to live up to.
Do men who live in cultures where women normally go about in a state of undress have these kinds of problems? I’m just curious. If men were really wired differently wouldn’t it carry over to that? I have no idea how we could find the answer to that one though…
dream wanderer
And part of it is what I call the romance culture ideals. If you love me you should love me so much that to look at any other woman would be laughable. I should take up all your time and attention. You should love me so much no other woman compares. I could be overweight and dowdy but if a supermodel walks by you shouldn’t even notice. Love demands all or nothing and that includes your eyes.
I admit even though I’m on their side that ideal would be kind of hard to live up to.
Do men who live in cultures where women normally go about in a state of undress have these kinds of problems? I’m just curious. If men were really wired differently wouldn’t it carry over to that? I have no idea how we could find the answer to that one though…
dream wanderer
O
OhioBob
Guest
I’m sorry that you have come to feel the way you do and I pray that you will find peace on this issue.
However, I would counsel you to not extend your blanket assumptions regarding men to the entire species without charity. Whether you “kind of laugh a bit” or not at my sentiment matters not a whit to me, however, I think it is quite a presumption on your part to judge me in that regard without knowing me.
I was attempting merely to be honest in the hope of offering a plea on behalf of the silent majority of men who still find their wives desirable even after years of marriage.
If that isn’t your situation, I’m sorry. But I’m not responsible.
Blessings.
S
SDA2RC
Guest
gomer tree:
Brandon
I know this is maybe off topic, but how can swimwear be moral on the beach in public but not on a street downtown? Does the beach somehow make chaste dress and behavior less sacred? Immodesty is immodest no matter which public venue it takes place in…
Brandon
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