pretty girl...

[dream_wanderer]

karisue:

Scanty clothing, IMO, is a sign of low self esteem.

Your experience is different from mine but I believe we have come to the same conclusion. A lot of men wouldn’t understand this. Scanty clothes=attract men. Bad woman. Some don’t understand how that behavior might be to fill an emptiness left by an absent father or whatever. Rarely do well adjusted women with good self esteem who have had good role models resort to such things to simply get feelings of self worth. This is in the end is usually what its all about for many women. For some women its not about the men. Its goes deeper than that.

dream wanderer

 

[bengal_fan]

Gryphon:

Hmmm… it sounds like you’ve been taking the word of the secular media (or the evangelical fundamentalists) about the meaning of the ossuary inscription. There is absolutely no need to re-interpret Tradition to account for their theories. Just one “for instance”: in ancient Hebrew, “brother of Jesus” could just as easily mean “cousin of Jesus.”

So, James doesn’t have to be a son of Joseph, Mary’s “most chaste spouse” - he could easily be what the Church has always said he was: a very close relative. A back-issue of “This Rock” took the “ossuary issue” (say that three times real fast! ) on very well… wish I could remember which one!

God bless,

Ann

actually the catholic church has never officially said that joseph didn’t have other children. they just say that he never had other children with mary. in fact, i have read many explanations (even here at catholic answers) that says a legitimate explanation is that joseph had children from another marriage.

 

[webdezyn]

Many of the saints had similar temptaions. All you have to do is say " i rejct these thoughts" and then say a prayer.

 

[KathieAnn]

I guess I’m just oversensitive, but, men, it does get tiresome to hear constantly how you all struggle with looking at good-looking girls. I’ve about had it with all the shows on Catholic radio aimed at helping men get over their porn addictions - the “you wouldn’t believe how many men struggle with this” kind of show. I didn’t know what this thread was about but didn’t expect to read what I did. It makes us 40 year old moms with 9 kids feel ugly and undesireable and wondering, “is there any guy who’s just really attracted to his wife, even if she has given her whole life to bear many children??” I’m not overweight but time takes its toll no matter what. I’m still attracted to my husband! Give me some hope - I’d like to hear from men who say “Gee, I just really am ga-ga for my wife!!” I think your men’s only conferences are the best place for this kind of banter! I think I question God’s design in this whole sexuality thing sometime - I’d like to still feel beautiful and attractive to my husband like all those young women apparently are, but ain’t no way for that to happen after so many years and so many kids. The very act that is supposed to be the sign of our covenant and our love is based (for its intensity) on physical appearance and “sex appeal” which is so fleeting! What was God thinking? Shouldn’t the covenantal act become more awesome with time? But everyone knows there is nothing like that early passion. I still want the intensity but definitely lack the sex appeal. Doesn’t seem fair!

Oh well!!

 

[Rae]

I am very disappointed in the way teenage/young women dress these days, along with the ‘attitudes’ and ‘language’ I see and hear from them! I think the ‘pretty girl’ in this case, may have a bad case of ‘EGO’, which is a sin. There is a big difference in having self esteem and in being egocentric. True beauty, as we all know, is not on the surface, but lies in the soul.

Men, too, have a responsiblity to avoid sinful, lustful thoughts. They are just as responsible for their thoughts and actions, despite temptations.

As parents, we should try, with God’s help, to raise modest, faith-filled girls who will not go to that extreme of ‘dress’ or ‘lack of’…and to raise faith-filled boys who will respect women and realize the value of true love over ‘lust’.

The most important part of the solution, is a deep faith in Christ, and making sure that children are raised with ‘religion’.

My suggestion to the original post, as others have noted, would be to make use of the confessional and to pray. Atleast you are aware of your weakness and have some ‘guilt’ associated with it…or otherwise you wouldn’t have posted it to the forum. I would think that’s better than a lot of men (and women) who don’t care at all, and do whatever they want without thought of God at all!

May God bless you and give you strength and forgiveness!

 

[Rae]

KathieAnn:

I guess I’m just oversensitive, but, men, it does get tiresome to hear constantly how you all struggle with looking at good-looking girls… I’d like to hear from men who say “Gee, I just really am ga-ga for my wife!!”

However, let’s not forget that we women sometimes have the same temptation to look at ‘good-looking’ men. Just because society is male-based and focuses more on a man’s point of view, doesn’t mean that it’s an only-male problem/sin.

However, girls are raised in a society that places women in the role of ‘objects’, and encourages them to dress provocatively at very young ages nowadays. It’s a societal problem that definitely needs changing.

I’m definitely routing for those guys (and gals) who ‘don’t look’!!!

 

[tobias]

I believe there is much confusion about this topic these days. I am a 33 year old catholic and father of 5 children, and have also had the ‘tube top’ experience. I think the confusion is in how we percieve our own initial reaction to the situation. It is easy enough to say it is sinful to look or that to dress imodestly is sinful, but how often do we stop to think ‘why did I take notice?’ I would challange every guy out there who is honest with himself to try to claim that they have the ability to ignore a beautiful woman, and I don’t mean pay attention to, but to take notice and be struck by beauty. I believe it is impossible not to appreciate beauty. Where that appreciation goes from there is another story. Though many wonder why God has put such an overwhelming sexual drive in us, I think it not at all hard to understand. If we consider the stubbroness of man it makes sense, for if procreation was not linked so intricatley with our sexual drive, I think the human race would have died out millenia ago. Preservation of the human race.

Obviously it is sinful to stare at a woman with lustful intent, but is it sinful to take notice of the beauty of woman? I believe the first sin was not that Adam took notice of the beauty of Eve.

On the flip side I never hear the discussion of ‘Is it sinful for a woman to take notice of a man who is wealthy and succesful?’ One may say there is a great difference, but then there is a great difference in the sex’s. On both accounts sin enter’s when the one who is taking notice has only self in mind.

 

[Rae]

Tobias,

I’d like to say that women also have sexual drives and attraction that has nothing to do with a desire for wealthy or successful man. As if most women would choose ‘Donald Trump’ over Brad Pitt based on physical attractiveness! Yeesh! We are just as attracted to physically good-looking men just as much as men are to women.

Also, you speak of beauty in limited terms of someone who is attractive physically/sexually. The definition far exceeds this.
You used the term ‘overwhelming’ to describe male sexual drive. I would say that this wrongly indicates a lack of self control. And, as we know, we all have self control.

Since Jesus spoke of ‘looking at a woman’ with lust in your heart as adultery, I would be weary of where that line is drawn (am I looking with lust or merely admiring beauty?). Sounds like a way of trying to get around something Christ clearly stated.

I, myself, as a married woman, try to avoid looking at good looking mean and/or women (obviously for different reasons), especially if they are dressed or act in a certain manner…because I do not feel that egocentric people need any more attention than they already receive from others. Regardless of whether they wear (for example) tube tops, short shorts, mini skirts, etc… for reasons of low self-esteem or that of ‘narcacism’, it’s sinful. They shouldn’t be encouraged.

We should try to look at others with God’s eyes, not our own.
There is true beauty in the face of the poor, the suffering, the sick, the lonely, the meek, in our faithful spouses’…that’s where we need to seek to appreciate beauty!!!

 

[dream_wanderer]

I’m glad someone brought up the good looking men scenario. We are getting plastered by bill boards and ads and things with well built men shirtless men showing off all the time and although some men would like to think only gay men notice…wake up. Straing hetero women notice. How could we not?

I have joked that there is a guy at my church who looks like a Latino Brad Pitt. He’s done nothing wrong. He’s just coming to church and he is even dressed up nice when he comes… but I freely admit he was distracting. I did not have lustful thoughts about him but when he was there I couldn’t help looking at him (or I thought I couldn’t help it. I could.). I no longer sit in that section of the church when I attend that particular service…

Its a different kind of temptation from what men experience though. Its not out and out blantant lust. I really don’t know how to describe it so guys could understand without sounding silly. I hope someone here who is more expressive than I am would be able to explain it.

The idea that a woman is just attracted to weath and power is slowly becoming passe although there of course will always be women like that. As women gain their own monetary and social power there is little need to look for a man to do that for her. Hence instead of focusing on how a man might be faithful or a good provider society is hitting us with the visual as well. Drink Coke and this good looking surfer will notice you. Buy this car and you get this good looking guy comes along with it.It was ridiculous to begin with but its getting to be even more ridiculous!

 

[Black_Jaque]

Kathy Ann,

You pretty much exemplified why this is an important issue. It distracts men from their spouses.

There are two types of men - those who struggle with not looking lustfully at immodest women, and those who give in to it.

If your husband is a struggler, thank the Lord! And do all you can to help him.

If one of the big reasons women dress immodestly is for the other women - then the women should be putting pressure on to reverse the trend. So Kathy, how do you respond to your fellow woman who is dressed in such a way as to distract your husband?

Lastly, as men pursue self mastery and master their concupiscence, yes, their wives do become more attractive. We’ve been married 10 years, I still find my wife attractive.

 

[Rae]

ppcpilot:

The tube top was bright florescent green, if that helps…I don’t blame the girl at all; it’s up to me to look at women as sisters no matter what they are wearing. She was with a boyfriend type, I think anyway.

And another thing…

I don’t mean this as a personal criticism, but I caught this comment, and thought I’d just ask, in general: What makes some men think they can get any woman they want anyhow? I mean, if she hadn’t been with a ‘boyfriend type’, would that have been followed up with propositioning her? Do you suppose she would have thrown herself at you? That seems a little presumptuous, and perhaps a little egotistical. Besides, if there was guilt associated with the act (as it is a sin), then repentance would not include following up on the first sin with another (lest we forget the poor wife of this scenario)…that of adultery? Was this something you actually entertained, by your admission that you took notice that she ‘was with a boyfriend type anyway’?
Um, you’re married, remember?

Besides that, if admiring her from afar is not an offense, then why even notice whether or not she was with a ‘guy’ or not. Was there a next step to ‘just taking a look?’. In other words, the thought was there, “Shucks! She has a boyfriend”. Not, "I should not look at her. (and averting the eyes and thoughts).

I’m getting a little tired of this thread because of some of the posts I’ve read, making men out to be helpless to control themselves. I congratulate and applaud those posts, by men, who show what it means to be good husbands, fathers, and Christians by intentionally NOT looking.

There is a sad, secular, way of thinking which this all reminds me of. The “LOOK, BUT DON’T TOUCH” phrase. It’s still a sin to look, if the motives behind the look are lustful.

One last comment…flourescent green tube tops? Yeesh! I guess fashion-sense is another thing guys do not notice or care about. Doesn’t that sound somewhat tacky to anyone else? Yeesh!

 

[ppcpilot]

With all of this said, is it okay to look at your spouse lustfully?

Do spouses enjoy being looked at lustfully by their other halves?

I never thought this thread would grow as it did!

Are there any men here that have full self-control? Why do women seem to be in more control of the sexual desires? You don’t find too many addicted to porn and self pleasure like you do men.

 

[gomer_tree]

I was reminded this morning by the “studies” that show that men and women are attracted to each other not on looks, not on personality, not on mutual interests, but - yes, it’s true - smell!

As I read this thread, I was trying to think about any time that I fell into sin because of the temptations of that “great smelling babe!” Funny, I didn’t come up with any.

And regarding KathieAnn, I am sorry you are sick of hearing about it. But, while this thread is a little light-hearted, porn is a serious, serious problem, even among otherwise good church-going men. If it makes you feel any better, it typically has zero to do with how a man feels about his own wife. It sounds cliche, but it’s true - it’s no her, it’s him! Have you ever wondered why unscrupulous singles have this fascination with “conquering” multiple partners? It’s not because they can’t find one that’s pretty enough.

I’m not sure I’m making a good point here, but it’s a pervasive problem, it causes a lot of other problems, and it is a problem of weakness and addiction.

Threads like this show how easy it can be for us men to fall into sin. Who knows why, but the mere glance at a scantily clad girl can send us into mind games. Prayer and confession has done wonders for me, but a lot of men need our prayers because they are struggling with these desires.

 

[Rae]

ppcpilot:

With all of this said, is it okay to look at your spouse lustfully?

Do spouses enjoy being looked at lustfully by their other halves?

I never thought this thread would grow as it did!

Are there any men here that have full self-control? Why do women seem to be in more control of the sexual desires? You don’t find too many addicted to porn and self pleasure like you do men.

I think that society has created a myth that women are not as ‘sexually oriented’. I think that it’s just a man’s world, and that men are as bombarded with those pre-conceived ideas as women are bombarded with other pre-conceived ideas that create ‘tube-top wearing girls’.

Hypothetically speaking, if men are physiologically more sexually desirous and perverse, then I’d say that they are even more responsible for their actions. I think we are all responsible, regardless of ‘extent of sexual desire’ to avoid sin. It’s not a male versus female contest of degree. And it’s certainly not a “well, I’m a guy, I can’t help myself” scenario. Men CAN help themselves.

A man who is a an adulterer, a homosexual, or a pedophile may use the excuse that “he’s overly sexed” and “has no control over himself”, but that doesn’t mean that’s true, nor does it mean that it’s not a sin of grave perversity.

And, yes, a wife does enjoy her husband’s sexual attentions!

 

[ppcpilot]

I think it mainly just has to do with curiosity. Like Gomer Tree mentioned, it’s not that the wife unit is not pretty enough. I struggled with porn and all the ‘stuff’ that goes with it, and my wife knew, and occasionally she would get angry at me and say things like why do you need to look at 'nekked ’ women when you have me to look at. It wasn’t about her not being pretty; it was just about seeing all of the variations in the female form that made it so interesting.

But all that aside, it’s still not right, but we as humans are just curious animals, and until we can conquer that, I think this kind of thing will always exist.

It’s kind of like looking at a car wreck…you know you shouldn’t, but…

 

[GoodME]

If there was sin, I think the sin was imagining the intimacy of her body, without entertaining intimacy with her mind.

In other words, it was enough that she was physically attractive, but the fact that she may also have been an intelligent, interesting person with great life experiences and a lot of other intrinsic positives, was immediately re-buffed because all that was seen was what was on the outside.

Does that make this person more of an object, like a desk lamp or something? Is there any sin in reducing a fellow human to that status? Male or Female? Do we do this with homeless people we see downtown? Is that a sin?

 

[Black_Jaque]

With all of this said, is it okay to look at your spouse lustfully?
If you really mean what “lust” means - No. Your spouse is never an object to be possessed.

Do spouses enjoy being looked at lustfully by their other halves?
Again, the term lust is being diluted here. It’s OK for spouses to indulge in each other’s visual beauty. But that is not the same as “lust”. Years of practicing NFP, and raising children will help put this into perspective (it has for me). I’ve been thinking lately of sneaking photos of women giving childbirth into the pages of porno magazines on the shelves. This would put into stark reality what this whole thing is all about.

I never thought this thread would grow as it did!

Are there any men here that have full self-control?

By what do you mean full self-control? Over all aspects? No I don’t believe they do over their entire lifetime.

Why do women seem to be in more control of the sexual desires? You don’t find too many addicted to porn and self pleasure like you do men.
No, women are just as weak as men. Although they don’t have the constant hormonal drive. When they are in their fertile phase - their sexual drive is similar to that of men’s. However there are times in the month when their drive is virtually non-existent.

Don’t kid yourself into thinking women aren’t addicted to porn. They just aren’t as visually stimulated as men. Women’s porn comes in the form of Cosmopolitan magazines, and romance novels. The sexual encounters on those pages are just as cheap and shallow as anything on Playboy - they just aren’t visual.

 

[montanaman]

Three points:

#1: It’s tough to look the other way when there’s another scantily clad girl there, too!

#2: Girls, we thank you for trying to dress “cute,” and your efforts are greatly appreciated, but you might be shocked and horrified to find out what can push us over the edge from “appreciation” to “YOWZA!”

#3: My girlfriend is a rock star–almost literally–but she dresses almost 50’s traditional. Somehow, with just a couple of blond highlights and a dress that would look “frumpy” on anyone else, she gives me whiplash…which, of course, is a whole new problem…

You just can’t win as a Catholic guy.

 

[Becky58]

Black Jaque:

.

I would also have to question the intelligence of anyone who thinks that this is a choice between tube tops and burkas.

Black Jaque, Maybe I am too sensitive to be posting here, but I never expected to have my intelligence questioned by someone who disagreed with me.
Lorik, If my post in response to yours was insulting, I am sorry.

 

[Black_Jaque]

Becky,

I don’t know. Are you really telling me you see nothing in between today’s pop fashions and a burka?

Depending on how you answer that would dictate how I would make my assessment.