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Eilish_Maura
Guest
The concern as presented promotes scrupulosity - and some already have a severe dose of that.
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Chuck_H
Guest
Perspective
After they had eaten and prayed and sang, Jesus took bread and having given thanks to heaven, he broke the bread and gave it to his disciples saying," This my body which will be given up for you"
Twelve guys sitting around a Seder table passing The Body of Christ from hand to hand, breaking off pieces and consuming them. Maybe more, the Gospels don’t give the number, just that He wanted this meal with His disciples.
I don’t intend to denigrate any specific practice but this was the reality. We can guess there were crumbs and stand a 90% chance of being right.
This was God giving out the first Eucharist. Natural, letting His own body and blood be handled as best they could.
Church tends to mystify and make the natural into something so far removed from real life it is incomprehensible. Nature exists in God and I would imagine that is why Jesus gave the Eucharist in the forms that He did. I whole heartedly doubt that Jesus worried about every little crumb or drop of liquid.
I would never suggest that the Real Presence be doubted. I would suggest that, as our Creator, God has a good handle on us and knows when He is receiving due reverence. I can’t imagine Him sweating the small stuff like an errant particle of Himself getting lost in a hand pore.
A year ago, I went to a church where the priests all had to be at every mass (lay ministers allowed), Communion was one species only and had to be received on the tongue. I haven’t been back to that church.
Chuck H
Houston
After they had eaten and prayed and sang, Jesus took bread and having given thanks to heaven, he broke the bread and gave it to his disciples saying," This my body which will be given up for you"
Twelve guys sitting around a Seder table passing The Body of Christ from hand to hand, breaking off pieces and consuming them. Maybe more, the Gospels don’t give the number, just that He wanted this meal with His disciples.
I don’t intend to denigrate any specific practice but this was the reality. We can guess there were crumbs and stand a 90% chance of being right.
This was God giving out the first Eucharist. Natural, letting His own body and blood be handled as best they could.
Church tends to mystify and make the natural into something so far removed from real life it is incomprehensible. Nature exists in God and I would imagine that is why Jesus gave the Eucharist in the forms that He did. I whole heartedly doubt that Jesus worried about every little crumb or drop of liquid.
I would never suggest that the Real Presence be doubted. I would suggest that, as our Creator, God has a good handle on us and knows when He is receiving due reverence. I can’t imagine Him sweating the small stuff like an errant particle of Himself getting lost in a hand pore.
A year ago, I went to a church where the priests all had to be at every mass (lay ministers allowed), Communion was one species only and had to be received on the tongue. I haven’t been back to that church.
Chuck H
Houston
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Father_Fred
Guest
I believe it and feel for them. Do you think they would find some relief in opting for Communion on the tongue rather than in the hand?
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SacredHeartFan
Guest
don’t get mad but wouldn’t the fragments on the floor just make Jesus more present in that church? 
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Which they can do now and not impact anyone who prefers to receive in the hand.
While the potential exists for ‘loss’ (if that is even accurate description since someone tends to consume dropped hosts and fragments of significant size) should the Church foster unhealthy attitudes under the mask of ‘reverence’?
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Father_Fred
Guest
I’ll take this as a Yes to my question.
Remember this thread is only about preventable loss of clearly recognizable Fragments (Fact 1, post #1). We’re not talking about mites so small that you don’t know what they are. If in doubt you won’t go wrong treating them as Fragments.
The loss is preventable only when the “ordinary means” of prevention are deliberately omitted (see post #4). As some threaders have pointed out, God will take care of the hard cases in your favor.
It’s important to distinguish “Church” from “churchmen.” They’re not the same by a long shot. The “Church” is a single person, Jesus Christ, Head and members (see Catechism 795).
Jesus never fosters unhealthly attitudes. If unhealthly attitudes are fostered, it’s churchmen that are doing it and they should be corrected (see the Code of Canon Law, canon 212 §3).
That’s the big problem this thread is addressing. Our churchmen are fostering a careless attitude toward Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. They should be corrected parish by parish, diocese by diocese. Actually, they should correct themselves, but most will need help in the form of support from their parishioners.
Maybe the upcoming separate incorporation of parishes will make this easier.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Actually it was an effort to be polite and say the question was silly and the suggestion uncalled for.
Though the potential exists there does not seem to be any real need to change current practice - things so far are working.
Can things be refined and people’s awareness and reverence increased? Yes - but outside of the potential you have shown no true ‘loss’ being widespread to call for significant changes in current practice.
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kell0618
Guest
Our Diocese ordered retraining of all EMHCs last year. They are to keep their finger and thumb pinched together and over the paten and after they are finished serving, they purify their hands at the credence table. All children are taught that if they receive in the hand, they are to check for fragments and consume them if they exist. The same goes for all entering the Church through the RCIA program.
Generalized statements are not helpful.
Peace
Generalized statements are not helpful.
Peace
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Father_Fred
Guest
Come to think of it, I guess they would. Like He was present in the Sanhedrin, in the praetorium, in the dock before Pilate, and on Calvary.don’t get mad but wouldn’t the fragments on the floor just make Jesus more present in that church?
True, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is that Calvary event in an unbloody way, but we want to be there as His Blessed Mother was there, not as those who were stomping on Him.
As for you poor souls who have been subjected to “clown Masses” or similar unspeakable travesties, while there is any reason to believe that Jesus is bodily present on the altar you can join Him and his Sorrowful Mother. With them you can pray, “Father, forgive them; they don’t know what they’re doing.”
And really, if there’s no other way of receiving Him sacramentally, that would make great reparation to His Sacred Heart.
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Father_Fred
Guest
This is great news in answer to Basic Fact 7, post #1!
I’m not finding anything on it in the Western New York Catholic.. Can you help me with this?
What percentage of CHs around the Diocese would you say are now checking their “paten hands”?
How does Bishop Kmiec provide for those who don’t?
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Father_Fred
Guest
OK, but I’m not sure which of the 10 Basic Facts, post #1, you accept, deny, or find true but irrelevant. Could you list them, please?
For clarity your format might be the following (using copy, paste, and indent). The answers I give below are specimens for format only, and are not meant to record your thought. That only you can do.
- Clearly recognizable Fragments of the Blessed Sacrament fall in the distribution of Holy Communion.
- Each such Fragment is the entire living person of Jesus Christ,
true God and true man.
True (or False, or Not Sure, or Irrelevant, if you think so). - Communion patens held closely under the chin of the communicant-on-the-tongue (CT) catch these falling Fragments.
True, but not always. Basically irrelevant because there are so few CTs.
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Chuck_H
Guest
I am wondering.
Considering the arguments going on over in Pregnant mom and communion:
The status of the species has been presented over there as instance and maybe it suggests something here.
Barring any question of malicious or obviously desecratory act. If a particle is lost or falls by accident. Is it therefore so degraded as not be the Eucharist any more?
It would seem that the Paschal meal is a defined contract between Christ and His people implying that His Flesh will be consumed immediately or in the near future and from that act of faith comes the gifts meant to be bestowed by the sacrament.
If that is true, then honestly lost particles would be then degraded to the point where Jesus would not be present any more.
Now the church has protocols for cleansing dishes and cups used in the sacrifice of the mass and that is not questioned. It is due reverence to Christ and is a prudent precaution. So I would not denigrate that practice. This refers only to honestly and inevitably lost particles.
To check the receiving hand for particles is respect. To demand the faithful lick their hands all over would be scrupulosity. (only view this last as going to extremes)
Yes? No?
Considering the arguments going on over in Pregnant mom and communion:
The status of the species has been presented over there as instance and maybe it suggests something here.
Barring any question of malicious or obviously desecratory act. If a particle is lost or falls by accident. Is it therefore so degraded as not be the Eucharist any more?
It would seem that the Paschal meal is a defined contract between Christ and His people implying that His Flesh will be consumed immediately or in the near future and from that act of faith comes the gifts meant to be bestowed by the sacrament.
If that is true, then honestly lost particles would be then degraded to the point where Jesus would not be present any more.
Now the church has protocols for cleansing dishes and cups used in the sacrifice of the mass and that is not questioned. It is due reverence to Christ and is a prudent precaution. So I would not denigrate that practice. This refers only to honestly and inevitably lost particles.
To check the receiving hand for particles is respect. To demand the faithful lick their hands all over would be scrupulosity. (only view this last as going to extremes)
Yes? No?
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
I am not sure what your need is but you focus on the possibility and not the reality of day to day receiving of the Blessed Sacrament.
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Father_Fred
Guest
What forum and thread are you referring to?
2.
Jesus is present as long as the "sacramental species " (=appearances of bread and wine) are present. When they are gone, Jesus is gone and not before. See Catechism 1377. So a Fragment on the floor would probably last longer than some drops of consecrated wine.
3.
The benefits of a sacrament are bestowed on anyone not obstructing the bestowal. See Catechism 1128, last sentence. For the Eucharist that would be anyone denying the bodily presence of Jesus in it and/or being in the state of mortal sin.
4.
See the answer to Quote 2 above.
And that’s why this tread is only about preventable loss of the Blessed Sacrament.
6.
You will generally find only one particle. I find that picking it up with the tip of my tongue works fine, more effective than using a moistened finger. Repeat as the number and spread of Fragments requires. I agree that licking your hands all over is unseemly. Who demands it?
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Chuck_H
Guest
Nobody demands the licking thing, I was going to the absurd to make the point. Lord never let me meet someone who actually suggests that.
I would say that a fragment lost to the floor would be pretty unrecognizable tho. But then that is splitting hairs and I really don’t want to go there.
I would say that a fragment lost to the floor would be pretty unrecognizable tho. But then that is splitting hairs and I really don’t want to go there.
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kell0618
Guest
I have not attended Mass at any other churches within our diocese since the training so I am not sure. Now that you mention it, I will certainly ask friends who attend elsewhere. Thankfully, our diocese is very well-run and it seems any problems that arise are quickly dealt with. For example, we had a visiting priest from a religious order celebrate Mass one day. Let’s just say he did not ‘stick to the program’ (though I’m sure the Mass was valid, he turned the homily into a fire and brimstone, raving mad talk where he continually stormed from one side of the sanctuary to the other pointing and shouting) and once the chancery heard about it the next day, the priest was admonished and the religious order promised that he would never celebrate a Mass in the Diocese of Buffalo again.
If I have the opportunity, I will ask my pastor about the move for the training of EMHCs and will get back to you when/if I have the opportunity. I am blessed to be able to see I have rarely if ever personally witnessed an abuse of the Sacraments or Sacred Liturgy within our diocese. To the east, however…
Thank you and God bless
P.S. While looking at the diocesan website, I came across this page and wonder if it would have been part of these publications and training: **Buffalo Diocesan Liturgical Commission
** Publications
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maryj
Guest
I gotta tell you about a dream I had last night in reference to this thread. Let me prefice this by saying that I receive in the hand, and always make sure there are no remnents of the Eucharist left in my hand. So here’s the dream… I was receiving Holy communion and looked down into my hand but instead of the Host, there was a diamond in my hand. I chuckled when I woke up, I wondered if this meant something
. Sorry for the hi-jack. please continue.
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Frbrendan
Guest
The only thing I can think of is that you feel (rightly) that the Eucharist is more precious than diamonds.I gotta tell you about a dream I had last night in reference to this thread. Let me prefice this by saying that I receive in the hand, and always make sure there are no remnents of the Eucharist left in my hand. So here’s the dream… I was receiving Holy communion and looked down into my hand but instead of the Host, there was a diamond in my hand. I chuckled when I woke up, I wondered if this meant something
But enough–let’s not hijack this thread!
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otjm
Guest
Considering that they most likely already revceive on the tongue and still deal with scrupulosity, no, I don’t think so.
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otjm
Guest
Actually, the upcoming separate incorporation of parishes has nothing to do with whether or not we have better catechesis concerning the Eucharist. It has to do with whether or not, in lawsuits for sexual abuse by priests, the plaintiffs will be able to sue a diocese and seize any or a number or parishes to satisfy the judgement.
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