Priest response to TLM leaves me stunned

[PAboy57]

Just for info we have 1 church in our diocese that offers the latin Mass. Our Bishop is not a supporter of it.

When you think about it so many priests don’t know the latin and neither do the parish folks. I remember it as a child and it was beautiful but I didn’t understand.

Seems it’s just a fact that it will fade away in time. I feel and understand both sides of the equation on this. If it was said closer to my home I would go but that isn’t the situation. I would even find a prayer book with the latin and english.

I wish the OP much luck in their quest as it does seem to be a big hurdle to jump these days.

Take care and may God grant you the grace to do this if that is His wish.

 

[StTommyMore]

Why is it that every thread in the Traditional Forum turns into a debate over the SSPX? Its getting to the point that perhaps the topic should be put on temporary hiatus.

 

[elts1956]

Read my post above. Summorum Pontificum gives secular priests (only) freedom to celebrate the Extraordinary Form. But it does not change the canons regarding the rights of bishops over their parishes.

A good example is this. Father X wants to celebrate mass in the EF. He does not need permission to do so, if he’s a secular priest. Father wants to celebrate it at St. Mary’s Catholic Church. St. Mary’s is not his property. It belongs to the diocese. The diocese cannot stop Father from celebrating the EF of the mass. But it can say that it may not be done at St. Mary’s.

The Holy Father deliberately left that part out of the letter so as not to undermine the authority of the diocesan bishop over his jurisdiction. It was the intention of the Holy Father to clarify that the Tridentine Form can be celebrated by secular priests [and by religious priests if they have permission from their community]. It was not the intention of the Holy Father to change the laws on how dioceses are run and who has what authority over the parishes.

To avoid that conflict, he does not touch on authority over parishes in the letter. He deals only with the right of the priest to celebrate the form. Therefore, all the canons regarding the rights of pastors remain in place. The bishop is the pastor of the diocese. There has to be some coordination between the bishop and the priest who wants to celebrate the EF.

The Holy Father is not a canon lawyer himself, but one of the best canon lawyers in the world is his secretary and personal advisor. I’m sure that Don Girogio gets consulted before these documents hit the public. He was always consulted when he was Cardinal Ratzinger’s right hand man at the Curia. You liberate the Tridentine Form, but you leave the authority of the bishop over the parish and the faithful intact, if you are careful with the wording. I cannot imagine another way of doing this without being that cautious.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Ah so… Thanks JR

 

[PacoG]

Would you happen to have a link to this article? Just curious.

Sadly, the Diocese of Brownsville doesn’t put The Valley Catholic on the web. It’s available in the vestibule of most churches in the diocese.

 

[Kearney]

The attitude of some hear towards the OF is good reason why many priests and bishops fear allowing for greater use of the EF. It’s loyalist seem to disdain everything that has come from Rome and developed in the Church since Vatican II. Worse yet, they appear to use the Tridentine liturgy as a banner to beat 95% of their fellow Catholics over the head with. This seriously disrupts and even threatens the unity of the RCC.

My parish priest told me that there was no interest in the Latin Mass at our parish and that he would not encourage any. I did not understand his hostility at the time, but after reading what some supporters of the Latin usage have to say about the Church of today, I can see why he would be weary of introducing such a mass at our parish.

If the Pope allows for the EF then good. If one wants to attend one then fine, but please don’t critcsie 95% of your fellow Catholics who are generally comfortable with the OF as the standard rite of our worship.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, the nearest EF Mass to Laredo is in Pharr at St. Jude Thaddeus Catholic Church. Pharr is 145 miles from Laredo.

That Mass is said by the Oratorian Fathers who staff St. Jude Thaddeus.

The Bishop of Brownsville–the Most Rev. Daniel Flores–spoke well about the EF Mass in an article in the most recent issue of the Diocesan newspaper. Who knows…if he promotes it, there might be one closer to you in either Roma or Rio Grande City soon.

But, San Antonio is easier to get to because I-35 is a straight shot from here and even though Pharr is five miles closer, you might remember that US 83 South is a two-lane highway most of the time and you need to deal with all sorts of speed traps. Unless, of course, you know a good lawyer in the Valley who can get benedictgal out of that.

 

[JReducation]

Why is it that every thread in the Traditional Forum turns into a debate over the SSPX? Its getting to the point that perhaps the topic should be put on temporary hiatus.

I don’t know the answer to your question. But I would suggest that we focus on responding to the questions and concerns of the posters rather than bringing up the Society every time an issue comes up. The issues around the Society do not resolve the concerns of the posters. Many of us, including me, love Christian tradition and are well aware that we have many wonderful spiritual traditions in the Church that are much older than the SSPX. It would be wonderful to discuss them without the argument and debates. In this thread the OP just wanted to share his/her experience and maybe pick up a few ideas on what to do next. That is such a simple and noble desire. We should respond with the same kind of simplicity and nobility.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

When you think about it so many priests don’t know the latin and neither do the parish folks. I remember it as a child and it was beautiful but I didn’t understand.

And yet in the current code of Canon Law:

Can. 249 The program of priestly formation is to provide that students not only are carefully taught their native language but **also understand Latin well **and have a suitable understanding of those foreign languages which seem necessary or useful for their formation or for the exercise of pastoral ministry.

 

[ProVobis]

My parish priest told me that there was no interest in the Latin Mass at our parish and that he would not encourage any. I did not understand his hostility at the time, but after reading what some supporters of the Latin usage have to say about the Church of today, I can see why he would be weary of introducing such a mass at our parish.

The term Latin Mass is ambiguous in a sense as both forms were promulgated in Latin. The TLM or the EF is always said in Latin and the OF is mostly in the vernacular except that Paul VI, who issued the New Mass, stated in 1969:

"… But, in any case, the new rite of the Mass provides that the faithful “should be able to sing together, in Latin, at least the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, the Our Father” (Sacrosanctum Concilium n. 19).

1. But, let us bear this well in mind, for our counsel and our comfort: the Latin language will not thereby disappear. It will continue to be the noble language of the Holy See’s official acts; it will remain as the means of teaching in ecclesiastical studies and as the key to the patrimony of our religious, historical and human culture. **If possible, it will reflourish in splendor." **

Obviously, it was never the intention of Vatican II or Pope Paul VI to have an all-vernacular all-the-time Mass.

 

[JReducation]

And yet in the current code of Canon Law:

Your quote from the canons is what I was referring to when I said that Pope John Paul II had changed the rules about Latin. Since 1983, the rule is that you must be able to do more than read it. You must be proficient in Latin. Those who are not proficient in it are going to shy away from the Latin mass in either form. Let’s remember that the OF is also celebrated in Latin, not just the EF.

In my own community, very few of our friars are allowed to celebrate it, because they cannot speak the language. If you watch EWTN, not all of their friars celebrate it either. They have only three friars who speak it fluently. The others can read it and follow along with an English translation. But the law is that you must be proficient.

In the old days, you did not have to know Latin. You needed enough Latin to get by, as we say. In the new code of canon law you have to know it as one would know a second language. The rule also applies for mass in other languages. If you’re a priest or deacon, you must speak that language with proficiency.

Proficiency does not mean like a native speaker. It does mean that you understand more than just a few words that you’ve memorized. You should be able to understand new phrases and words that come up as the calender changes. The Ordinary parts of the mass remain the same, but the propers do not. That’s where the deacons and priests get caught with the new Latin requirement. When you open the book and you find a prayer with words and expressions that you have not memorized, you’re in trouble if you can’t interpret their meaning. The law requires that you be able to do so. You can’t just translate. You must be able to interpret. The commentaries are very clear on the meaning of “understand”.

Having tuaght in the seminary and in religious theologates, I can tell you that unless you’re getting an advanced degree in theology, you’re not going to be exposed to enough Latin to claim proficiency. You have to study it on your own or take courses outside of school. There is no time in the curriculum for Latin. As it is now, the Church’s degree requirements are very stringent. This is for a simple Master’s of Divnity. It takes four years to complete it, when other Master’s degrees take only two years. Just for an M.Div, which is not a research degree, it’s much more practical, there are required courses in all kinds of disciplines, about 60 - 70 credits in all, over and beyond the BA degree.

The average deacon and priest does not get theology degrees, because those are longer and heavy on the research papers, plus they require more rigorous examinations, theses, and foreign languages. Instead, they go for the Divinity Degree which is still four-years long.

There is an M.Th. or Masters of Theology. It’s a two-year degree, but it does not meet the Church’s requirements for deacons, priests and brothers. It’s the M.Div or bust, unless you belong to a religious order that has different requirements. Those are too many to go into in this thread and off topic.

To conclude, I understand why the average deacon and priest shy away from the mass in Latin, in either form. They don’t feel comfortable with the language requirement. I studied it for six-years to get my degree, four as an undergrad and two more as a grad student. I can testify that if you don’t use it, you lose it. When I was an educator I used it a great deal. Now that I do pro-life ministry I rarely read anything in Latin. Everything is translated into the European languages. Even at the Vatican you need Italian, not Latin, to work there. All the documents are translated into Italian. When you enter a conference room with the Holy Father, he speaks in Italian, no longer in Latin.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Phemie]

Actually, the nearest EF Mass to Laredo is in Pharr at St. Jude Thaddeus Catholic Church. Pharr is 145 miles from Laredo.

That Mass is said by the Oratorian Fathers who staff St. Jude Thaddeus.

The Bishop of Brownsville–the Most Rev. Daniel Flores–spoke well about the EF Mass in an article in the most recent issue of the Diocesan newspaper. Who knows…if he promotes it, there might be one closer to you in either Roma or Rio Grande City soon.

I just calculated what I’d have to travel to attend the nearest EF Mass and it’s 1956 miles return – 145 miles seems like a Sunday afternoon outing to me.

 

[JReducation]

The term Latin Mass is ambiguous in a sense as both forms were promulgated in Latin. The TLM or the EF is always said in Latin and the OF is mostly in the vernacular except that Paul VI, who issued the New Mass, stated in 1969:

Obviously, it was never the intention of Vatican II or Pope Paul VI to have an all-vernacular all-the-time Mass.

I believe that it was Pope Paul’s intention to keep Latin as the official language of the Church. But even he was unable to enforce it in practice. I’ll give a simple example.

With the advent of new technology and simultaneous translations by the time that Pope Paul died he was using Italian all the time and when there were international conferences, any of us who attended them were given headphones. We could listen in: Spanish, German, French and English while the pope spoke in Italian.

My guess is that he did not anticipate the technological explosion that would allow us to listen in many languages and speak in those languages.

I’m remembering that there was a time when the UN requierd French. It was its common language. That disappeared with technology.

In this context, it’s easy to understand how the daily use of Latin to communicate, as he said in his writing, was no longer necessary. We now had technology that did not make one language necessary.

Latin is still needed for certain levels of study, along with Greek and other European and Eastern languages. But not for daily use.

In 2009, we celebrated our 800th birthday. There was a general chapter of Franciscans from around the world and from the different branches of the order. !3000 delegates attended. The message was sent that the official language of the chapter would be Spanish. The chapter would be held in Assisi and conclude at the Vatican, all in Spansih. Because the largest number of Franciscans come from South America. Everyone had iPods. You could listen to the talks on your iPod in your language. The friars came from over 141 nations and over 60 languages. But with the help of technology, we were able to listen on these little iPods thingys where you had several chanels: English, French, German, Italian, Chinese, and Arabic. I’m not sure if you call them that, but they look like iPods. Some people may be familair with them. They’re little radios with headphones.

The point is that even in an international community like Franciscans, Jesuits, Carmelites, Dominicans and the other big families, there is a breakdown into language groups. Pope Paul’s idea never anticipated this. Why would it? He was unfamiliar with it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I just calculated what I’d have to travel to attend the nearest EF Mass and it’s 1956 miles return – 145 miles seems like a Sunday afternoon outing to me.

145 miles is not a short ride. Even if you drive very fast, it’s about four to five hours round trip.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

I just calculated what I’d have to travel to attend the nearest EF Mass and it’s 1956 miles return – 145 miles seems like a Sunday afternoon outing to me.

Need to move to Chicago.

 

[archangel04]

No
Because you see petty arguments like, “OF is better” or “EF is better” only belongs to the laity. To the priest, he sees both as equal. He celebrates the same Mass and consecrates the same Eucharist.

Sometimes people are just reading too much into the words just because they cannot get what they want. Then makes up a conspiracy theory. I mean, can you tell me of something today that doesn’t have any conspiracy theory behind it? And I mean anything, not just Church affairs. There must always be a deeper meaning behind something and we can’t just accept something at face value.

I am not making up consiparacy theories at all! But I also don’t want to leave my home parish just because they don’t offer the EF. But I don’t feel reverence or “at home” with the current masses that are done at my home parish, hence why I attend another parish with the EF mass done by FSSP priest, who by the way is a very wonderful and intelligent man. Instead of my priest brushing me off as he did, he could of asked me in deeper why I feel that the parish should offer the mass, or perhaps say to me that if I can come up with a group of people who want the mass he will consider it, not just brush me off. The EF and OF arguments never came to my mind when I asked.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I am not making up consiparacy theories at all! But I also don’t want to leave my home parish just because they don’t offer the EF. But I don’t feel reverence or “at home” with the current masses that are done at my home parish, hence why I attend another parish with the EF mass done by FSSP priest, who by the way is a very wonderful and intelligent man. Instead of my priest brushing me off as he did, he could of asked me in deeper why I feel that the parish should offer the mass, or perhaps say to me that if I can come up with a group of people who want the mass he will consider it, not just brush me off. The EF and OF arguments never came to my mind when I asked.

I must admit that some priests do need to work on their people skills. Our former parish pastor is the same way. I like him because he’s intelligent and one of the best priests I’ve seen and heard at homilies. Sadly not a lot of people like him and I know his personality can sometimes rub people the wrong way. We just have to trust that they know what they are doing and its for the best of the parish, even though sometimes they are a bit lacking in knowing how to explain it properly.

 

[JReducation]

I am not making up consiparacy theories at all! But I also don’t want to leave my home parish just because they don’t offer the EF. But I don’t feel reverence or “at home” with the current masses that are done at my home parish, hence why I attend another parish with the EF mass done by FSSP priest, who by the way is a very wonderful and intelligent man. Instead of my priest brushing me off as he did, he could of asked me in deeper why I feel that the parish should offer the mass, or perhaps say to me that if I can come up with a group of people who want the mass he will consider it, not just brush me off. The EF and OF arguments never came to my mind when I asked.

I don’t know your pastor or his situation. If this does not apply, just throw it out. As I have mentioned before, we don’t have many priests in our community. Most of our brothers are theologians. In my region we run one parish and it’s staffed by six brothers, only one is a brother priest. But he’s not in charge. The superior of the hosue is in charge. The superior is not a priest. He’s a theologian.

Anyway, the story is this . . . there have been many people who have come up to our one brother-priest to ask for the EF. He has explained that we are not allowed to celebrate it as a regular thing. We’re only allowed to celebrate it on special days when the superior approves. He always ends up sending the folks over to talk to Father, who is not a priest. But he’s called Father because he’s the superior.

Father always tries to explain that we do not do the EF, except on special holy days. In fact, we just did it last week for the Solemnity of St. Max and before that for the Solemnity of St. Clare. We’ll do it again in September for the Sitgmata of St. Francis.

What has been happening is that Brother has become so annoyed at having to answer the same question over and over again that he comes off rudely. We admit that he does come off rudely and dismissive. He has no authority, even though he is the parrochial vicar, to celebrate the EF without the Guardian’s permission. The Guardian has not authority to grant the permission as a regular thing, without the chapter’s permission. We’re not due for a chapter until 2014.

Maybe, your pastor’s reaction or lack of response may be because he has poor social skills and he needs to sharpen them or because he has been hounded and is tired of answering the same question. Tired is not an excuse for not being polite. Just as we tell our own brother, he must be polite and explain politely. But I thought that it may help to understand that sometimes human beings do get tired of the same thing over and over gain.

To be honest, I have no idea how to resolve that part of the problem. You can tell a person to be polite and explain politely or to ask the right questions, but that does not mean that they will do so. My option is to roll my eyes and keep moving. Another option that I have used to get something across to someone in authority is to write up a proposal with all the details and ask them to please look at it. Then I call within a week or so and see what they say. That usually gets me a response, not always the one that I want. But people seem to respond politely when you give them time to dwell on something.

I have even given that idea to the people in the one parish that I wrote about. I don’t live there. That’s the same order, but a different house. But I go there to teach. People ask me what to do about this. I explained that the brothers can only celebrate the EF under extraordinary circumstances. It would be good for them to pick several holy days that they would like to have the form celebrated and write up a proposal and explain why those days are important to them. I don’t know if they have taken my adivise or not. But my hope was to get the vicar’s attention without exhausting him with the question and risking his being less than nice to the folks, because the folks are really nice. There are one or two who ask as if they had a right to run the place. But most are really very pleasant. They deserve a pleasant response in return.

You may want to write up something. Be sure to mention the numbers of people that you have who would attend the mass if it were celebrated. That’s important too. You can’t ask the pastor to bump 500 for 100 parishioners. That’s not allowed even by the Holy Father’s decree. He’s very clear about the accommodation being in harmony with the parish and diocese. Make sure that you have a good number of people who want the mass.

Good luck. If you need more ideas, feel free to pick my brain.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[At_Trent]

The attitude of some hear towards the OF is good reason why many priests and bishops fear allowing for greater use of the EF. It’s loyalist seem to disdain everything that has come from Rome and developed in the Church since Vatican II. Worse yet, they appear to use the Tridentine liturgy as a banner to beat 95% of their fellow Catholics over the head with. This seriously disrupts and even threatens the unity of the RCC.

My parish priest told me that there was no interest in the Latin Mass at our parish and that he would not encourage any. I did not understand his hostility at the time, but after reading what some supporters of the Latin usage have to say about the Church of today, I can see why he would be weary of introducing such a mass at our parish.

If the Pope allows for the EF then good. If one wants to attend one then fine, but please don’t critcsie 95% of your fellow Catholics who are generally comfortable with the OF as the standard rite of our worship.

I think the “attitude” numbers are overwhelmingly stacked on the OF side of the fence. Those that prefer the Mass that was never abrogated have lived under an unjust stigma since the Novus Ordo Missae was introduced. And as far as “fine, just don’t …” is proof it continues today.

Funny to read that ending to a post that defends hostility toward the EF by a Roman Catholic priest.

Do you honestly think what you read here is reason to justify any hostility or fear of the Highest Prayer of Holy Mother Church ? Cardinal Hoyos said the Pope would be pleased to see the EF offered in every parish. Publicly. He hasn’t recanted it, so surely H.H. is ok with the statement. Let’s look here as well. If the opinions of forum posters are a measuring stick …

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=454571&page=33

Nearly 6 weeks running. A very simple question. Yes/No/Not Sure. It stayed around the 75% mark from day one. 198 of 265 who voted said yes to the question.

But that thread was closed. One only needs to read the very first reply to a simple question to guess why. Which side of the fence got it closed ? Which one introduced division immediately ?

Stigma. One simply can’t expect trads to shut up as long as it continues.

 

[Ockham]

My parish priest told me that there was no interest in the Latin Mass at our parish and that he would not encourage any. I did not understand his hostility at the time, but after reading what some supporters of the Latin usage have to say about the Church of today, I can see why he would be weary of introducing such a mass at our parish.

Is your priest a supporter of married clergy like you do?

 

[StTommyMore]

Is your priest a supporter of married clergy like you do?

Married clergy (though I do not support the idea myself) would not necessarily be some kind of “liberal innovation.” After all, the Eastern Rites allowed married men to become clergy. I would definitely not like priests to be able to marry, though allowing married mean into the priesthood would not be such an awful thing. The priest’s wife would definitely need to be an understanding woman. One advantage to not allowing married clergy at all, however, is there would be no need to explain why priests cannot marry after their ordination.