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ljprevo
Guest
I didn’t mean to suggest that you did, sorry it came across that way. I was stating a fact toward this thread as a whole.
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mlchance
Guest
Rather than causing a big fuss over fashion, perhaps your time would be better spent modeling the virtues of humility and obedience.
Just a thought.
– Mark L. Chance.
Just a thought.
– Mark L. Chance.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
Maybe make it known that you will be out of town that weekend visiting a shrine or a cathedral, and you would to know if she may make her first communion there.
I know families that have done just that… it is not a problem.
Getting her tied up in the middle of a quarrel (even though you are right) with a priest who is very wrong-headed (& wrong) will only emphasize controversy and low opinions of a priest.
This hits a little close to home for me. when I was about her age we got a new pastor who brought with him a VERY modern “liturgical coordinator” who introduced folk songs and was generally rude to everyone. My memories of those years were of my parents complaining a lot about church, and the other parishoners doing the same. Since we couldn’t win, we really should have just started attending another parish. But we didn’t. We stayed, we complained, on the drive home from Mass we complained more. We made fun of the AWFUL music and her silly singing. Yea, that is how we spent our sundays for a few years, before I refused to even go anymore.
I remember leaving sunday Mass saying (of all things) “I didn’t get a lot out of that Mass!” Huh? Like I didn’t get communion? Like it was entertainment?
Surround a little child with controversy, argument, confrontation, and engender a feeling of righteous (even it rightful!) hostility towards priests, and you are not going to like what you get. And you are going to lose in the end.
I know families that have done just that… it is not a problem.
Getting her tied up in the middle of a quarrel (even though you are right) with a priest who is very wrong-headed (& wrong) will only emphasize controversy and low opinions of a priest.
This hits a little close to home for me. when I was about her age we got a new pastor who brought with him a VERY modern “liturgical coordinator” who introduced folk songs and was generally rude to everyone. My memories of those years were of my parents complaining a lot about church, and the other parishoners doing the same. Since we couldn’t win, we really should have just started attending another parish. But we didn’t. We stayed, we complained, on the drive home from Mass we complained more. We made fun of the AWFUL music and her silly singing. Yea, that is how we spent our sundays for a few years, before I refused to even go anymore.
I remember leaving sunday Mass saying (of all things) “I didn’t get a lot out of that Mass!” Huh? Like I didn’t get communion? Like it was entertainment?
Surround a little child with controversy, argument, confrontation, and engender a feeling of righteous (even it rightful!) hostility towards priests, and you are not going to like what you get. And you are going to lose in the end.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
There is no question of making them reasonably available. He has said they are available right here - don’t wear a white dress. Is there a “right” to wear a certain type of dress? I don’t know that there is.
We are only hearing one side of the story. Maybe the pastor is concerned that there are families that cannot afford special clothing, or would be better suited spending the money on dresses little girls can wear again or to other events. Maybe he just doesn’t want to come right out and say it.
How can bringing in canon lawyers HELP or IMPROVE this situation.
I am telling you, battles are worth picking. And picking one that surrounds the first reception of the Eucharist for a child in controversy complete with letters to bishops, fighting your pastor, and retaining canon lawyers IS NOT worth picking.
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pnewton
Guest
I would not put a child in the battle. However, if i had a priest I thought was losing his marbles, I would consider that worth a few questions.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Well Ok, I’ll accept that. I like the idea of just going to another parish or even the Cathedral. Call ahead and let the pastor know that she will be there dressed in white. I believe that most pastors will help out.
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cotaface
Guest
I’ll clarify a few questions.
- No, his position has nothing to do with any families not being able to afford a white dress. He actually said we should buy 2 dresses, one for the ceremony and another for pictures of her in a white dress.
- He has been very clear that his position is that it is theologically not appropriate to wear white, given that white represents purity and you do not need to be pure to receive communion.
- Yes, there are a number of other families who are upset by this, but are intimidated by the pastor. I can tell you that he has berated me publically when I have brought up the issue. It is no suprise that the other parishoners do not want to test the waters.
- Our daughter is not aware that any controversy is or will take place.
- This is not a “fuss over fashion”. This is a Catholic parent standing up for my parental rights on what color dress my child should wear. And, may I add, the Diocese supports this decision, but the pastor lacks “obedience” and outwardly defies the Diocese.
The issue is this (you hit it on the head JDGang): **Can a priest deny a child her FHC based on the color of her clothing? **
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cotaface
Guest
Believe me-I tried. They consider it “parishoner-stealing” and although they totally disagree with the pastors decision and are completely empathetic to my issue, they will not give her the FHC when she hasn’t done her CCD there. Thanks for the thought though!!!
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PatienceAndLove
Guest
This is where I am confused.
Mustn’t we be free of all sin before receiving Our Lord in the Eucharist?
Is the white clothing not also symbolic of our Baptismal promises?
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hasikelee
Guest
How sad.
Children pick up very well on symbolism. Symbolism is a huge aspect of our Faith. Everything we do, even the Mass itself, is ripe with symbolic words and gestures.
The symbol of wearing a beautiful, white dress on your first union with The Groom, Jesus Christ, is a memorable one.
It also stresses so many other virtuous aspects of our faith. We must receive Christ worthily and without sin, hence white to signify purity. We recognize the importance of receiving our King by wearing special, out of the ordinary clothing. We recognize our feminine beauty by wearing a beautiful dress.
Don’t let your precious daughter miss out on all of that symbolism! The treasure of our Faith should be abundantly available to her. Save the fighting for later; quietly attend to the issue so she can receive in the parish or quietly find a different parish.
Children pick up very well on symbolism. Symbolism is a huge aspect of our Faith. Everything we do, even the Mass itself, is ripe with symbolic words and gestures.
The symbol of wearing a beautiful, white dress on your first union with The Groom, Jesus Christ, is a memorable one.
It also stresses so many other virtuous aspects of our faith. We must receive Christ worthily and without sin, hence white to signify purity. We recognize the importance of receiving our King by wearing special, out of the ordinary clothing. We recognize our feminine beauty by wearing a beautiful dress.
Don’t let your precious daughter miss out on all of that symbolism! The treasure of our Faith should be abundantly available to her. Save the fighting for later; quietly attend to the issue so she can receive in the parish or quietly find a different parish.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
Modeling humility and obedience to a man who won’t obey his own bishop? Priests can and are often wrong. This one is off the marker.
Catholics DO have rights, believe or not, within the Church. That is why I recommended the St.Joseph Foundation.
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ASimpleSinner
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If you send me a private message telling me what large city you are closest to, I am relatively certain I could give you the name of a parish or shrine where you could go for your daughter’s FHC and she could wear her dress.
Again, I know a homeschooling family that made arrangements to attend a function in Chicago where Father Benedict Groeschel was offering Mass so that there sons could receive from him. They put on their little suits and took them there, and that is how it went down.
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Lamb_Serenade
Guest
I didn’t finish reading this thread, but this is what I was going to suggest. Would he really deny a child FHC for this reason in front of the entire congregation?
I would encourage you after the fact to continue this with the Bishop and if possible get other parents in your corner as well. The louder the protest, especially in light of the fact the Bishop has already told your priest he cannot deny FHC because of the white dress, the more likely he is to listen and do something about it. Continue to “climb the ladder” if you don’t get a satisfactory response or action from the Bishop. In other words, go to the Archdiocese, Cardinal, etc.
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hasikelee
Guest
Yup. For school and work and just hectic reasons, I went through a couple priests before finding our “home” parish and wanting to marry there. It took a huge novena to get married, lol. All the priests were angry.
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mlchance
Guest
I wasn’t aware that a Christian’s practice of virtue was contingent upon the behavior of others.
No one has a right to wear a white dress. More to the point, what did Jesus say about the way to act when people impinge upon our rights? I recall things about turning the other cheek, about going the extra mile, and about praying for those who persecute us.
I don’t recall anything about running around to bishops and canon lawyers huffing and puffing about dress color.
Assuming the OP’s take on the situation is 100% accurate, then, sure, the priest is wrong. Fine. Now it’s time to be an adult and get over it. I’m confident God’s grace is sufficient to overcome the “trauma” of not having one’s child wear a white dress.
– Mark L. Chance.
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puzzleannie
Guest
if you pastor is this rebellious against the bishop, and is applying tests and conditions for receiving the sacrament that are not in canon law, he is quite likely rebellious on other issues as well, and personally, I would have changed parishes long ago.
you have some choices:
buy a nice Easter-type dress in a pastel color that meets the guidelines and have your child make her first communion as scheduled. There is no reason she should be punished or have her sacraments delayed because of the ignorance and wilfullness of adults charged with this reponsibility. Our parents are told any modest dress is permitted that is suitable for church, white is not required, nor is the purchase of any item required (we live in an extremely poor area but every family comes up with a new white communion dress and shoes, usually the gift of padrinos). I encourage them to get a dress that can be worn all year, but few opt that way, except some of the older girls (stress modesty of course).
two, change parishes, but you risk delaying the sacrament, and IMO nothing can justify that.
buy her a pretty white dress, and take her to any Mass in any parish at any time where she will receive communion for the first time, approaching with her family. no, it will not be recorded, probably on any parish record, but that is not mandatory in any case for this sacrament.
or you can put your daughter in the center of the conflict and take her to first communion in a white dress and let her bear the brunt of this priest’s defiance.
then I would definitely change parishes, remove my children from RE at this parish, since if he is making a stand on this issue I have grave doubts on how the sacraments and other doctrine are being taught.
no doubt the first communicants will be called to gather around the altar for the Eucharistic prayer and their innocent minds be exposed to other liturgical abuses as well. Shameful and an abuse of the sacraments, and the most pervasive abuse in our Church IMO and IME.
just to clarify, canon law is silent on proper dress for this or any sacrament.
if the priest is delaying first confession to after first communion he is already, as I say, defying canon law and cannot be trusted to apply it in any sacramental area (I also assume marriage prep is a sham in this parish).
if the bishop is already aware of this priest’s activity, absolutely nothing will be served by the parents making a federal case of this. the only result will be damage and embarrassment of the child.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
And no priest has the right to refuse a child FHC simply because she wears a white dress. This child has been properly prepared according to canon law, and she has the right to receive FHC in a modest white dress if that’s her choice and the choice of her parents.
It’s all very well for you to go on with your platitudes about “What would Jesus do?” and once again present the namby-pamby Jesus who would want this family to be a doormat. You aren’t dealing with it. They are.
There are other instances where people were being persecuted, hornswaggled to pay extra money to buy sacrificial animals, and Jesus had a temper tantrum. He also said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for such is the Kingdom of God”. Jesus would be pleased with this little girl’s white dress, her attempt to be “pretty for Jesus.”
Having had the evening to think this over, I would go one better than one of puzzleannie’s suggestions.
Yes, the child will miss making her FHC with her class. But I would take the child in her white dress to another parish- the Cathedral.
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mlchance
Guest
Some time today, do a search for my username. Post a link for every single instance you find of me typing, “What would Jesus do?” Then you should probably re-read your sig and attempt to apply your advice to your own actions.
After you’ve done that, I’ll post links to the relevant passages in the Bible where Jesus instructs us to turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, and pray for those who persecute us.
– Mark L. Chance.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
I don’t hae time nor patience to do so. Please finish reading my post. Jesus was not only about love. He was about action as well.
Some time today, do a search for my username. Post a link for every single instance you find of me typing, “What would Jesus do?” Then you should probably re-read your sig and attempt to apply your advice to your own actions.
After you’ve done that, I’ll post links to the relevant passages in the Bible where Jesus instructs us to turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, and pray for those who persecute us.
– Mark L. Chance.
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mlchance
Guest
Does your lack of patience and time apply to following your own sig-advice? How about I save you some time. Search all you want, but you won’t find a single instance of me ever asking anyone, “What would Jesus do?”
You want action? Practicing humility and obedience are actions. They are two actions which Jesus practiced with alarming regularity, all the to being so humble and obedient that he accepted death on a cross.
I think that makes not having one’s daughter get to wear a white dress an extremely small sacrifice indeed.
– Mark L. Chance.
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