Priest: Ultimate Fighting is 'Murder'

[Abenadar]

I had a ton of biking accidents as a kid which left me with at least a few couple really nasty gashes and got nearly run over thrice. Still, that never stopped me from having fun.

Me neither, but I never willfully (with blindfold or without) rode into oncoming traffic. That clearly defies prudence! But yes, I had plenty of fun, and was hit twice, the second time actually landing on the hood of the vehicle with bruises on my neck and chin!

Are you gong to say I was stupid and committing sin because I was constantly ‘putting myself in danger’ by running happily like a free boy?

Of course not! I did this myself, as did every single other boy I know/knew! The main objective of riding a bike, rollerblading (rollerskating in my case…LOL), or skateboarding is not to injure other people by hitting them, choking them, or submitting them! That’s all I’m saying. The MAIN objective of MMA etc is to hurt people so badly that they either CAN’T, or WON’T fight back. See?

This is exactly the reason why I say you promote life inside a bubble. I said so before, just cuz you’ve had experience in fights it doesn’t mean you know what it’s like to have the heart of a thrill seeker/adventurer.

Listen…This is bogus. “Just because”…Whatever. I grew up in Santa Monica, CA, and bodysurfed most days every summer, regardless of how large or small the suft was…And it can be pretty big there (and it doesn’t curl north or south, but all at the same time, coming parallel to the beach, so no chance of riding a curl if it’s too big!!! Scary!). Anyway, the point is, no fight I’ve ever seen was as bad as riding the face of a monster wave, yet I kept doing it! Was it prudent? No. Was it fun? Most of the time (except when held underwater by the force of a huge wave)…Was I probably doing something sinful by putting myself in a very real, and very dangerous place? Absolutely! Did I live in a “bubble”? Absolutely not! I know what it’s like to have thrills.

Furthermore, to say that such activities are useless puts a lot of question into how much experience you really have.

Actually, the older I get and the more I study the faith, the more I realize how futile certain actions are! Christ could have come down from his cross when taunted by Jews and soldiers, and could literally have killed them all…but he didn’t. Many saints could have fought hard (!!!) against the people who were about to martyr them, but didn’t!!! They realized that the spiritual life is infinitely greater than the physical! The body is mortal…The soul isn’t.

You do know martial arts are one of the most popular forms of exercise right?

You do know martial arts are usually advertised as “self defense”, right? I never said there was anything wrong with defending oneself!!! Actually, I defended a right understanding of defending oneself and one’s family (remember???)! The commentary to the fifth commandment also speaks about this point!

Furthermore following your safety freak logic, professional cooking itself can be just as dangerous and “useless”. (I mean why play around with all those hot stoves and nasty knives when you can just order a take out or use a microwave? )

Don’t be ridiculous! What is the ultimate end of MMA? What is the ultimate end of cooking? I don’t know about “professional” chefs, but me personally, when I cook some food, you better believe that the “end” is so that I can eat it! I’m not lookin’ to go 12 rounds with an angry bull just so that I can ultimately put him into a submission hold, kill him, and then throw some steaks on the grill…

Besides, if you think every Catholic has the goal of being canonized a saint then you’re sadly naive.

Time and time again, you and your cohorts prove to be the naive ones! I never said that your goal is to be a canonized saint…Though it ought to be to become one (canonized or not!). I understand that people have doubts about themselves. Listen bro, I’m human too, and probably err in more ways than you do every single day, but nevertheless, our goal should be to be great Catholics, not mediocre Catholics who barely get into heaven (though, once upon a time, I thought that exact way too!). You know what they say, aim for the moon, land among the stars (or conversely, aim for the stars, land on the moon). Either way, you and I should be aiming for Heaven, not for purgatory. Aim for heaven, and you may end up in purgatory. Aim for purgatory, and you just might find that that wasn’t enough…God bless!

I’ll be happy with just purgatory thanks if it means I won’t have to constantly coop myself up in a secluded convent.
Convent? You’re a female? Oops, sorry. I called you “bro”…I think I meant “sis”. Are you a guy or girl?

Your idea of ‘peace’ is one fine reason why so many of my generation find religion a big killjoy and a harbinger of boredom.

I don’t know why! I’m probably not that much older than you (aka, you and I may be part of the same ‘generation’ depending on when we were born…I was born in '82). All I’m saying is that gratuitous violence found in MMA and elsewhere (where the objective is literally pain and violence) is not a good thing. On the other hand, how many other “organized” sports do you know where pain and submission are the actual stated goals of that sport? I’m not for being a killjoy! I’m all for having fun…but understand that certain types of “extreme” fun, where the end is nothing more than beating somebody, or getting a cheap thrill (like bunji jumping, or however you spell it), is less than desirable. I’m all for:

Driving cars
flying airplanes
biking
sports (whose objectives aren’t clearly the pain and suffering of others)
chess (psych…chess is gay)
checkers (lol…even gayer)
etc.

I’m not for:
Gratuitous violence and sports where the stated objective is to Beat the living ^&%$^#@ out of somebody. I mean, are we men, or are we animals? Are we Christians, or are we heathens?

Then again, I’ve seen priests who skateboard so I guess it means that not even all the religious would agree that “love of speed” is a sin.

Dude, if you think skateboarding equals “speed”, you’re living in the 19th century, no offense.

 

[Abenadar]

And some of those trips may even be gratuitous.

Wow, you’re really trying to miss the point. For the “special” people here:

The goal of driving:
To get somewhere SAFELY

The goal of MMA
To beat somebody into submission.

Makes you wonder about our ancestors who left the cozy fire, picked up a goatskin and spear, and headed off into the unknown.

Yeah, cuz everybody knows that they couldn’t, ya know, reproduce that fire the next night, and the next, and the next…

Little willie, this post was particularly special…

 

[Abenadar]

You can also throw in mountain biking, roller-coaster riding, whitewater rafting, or even just swinging at the local playground.

Yeah, cuz everybody knows that the ultimate goal of all those actions you just listed is to hurt other people.

 

[Abenadar]

If we take your notion seriously, then obviously such races as Le Mans, Formula 1, etc. would also fall into this category, right? Racing is a love for speed. So, does the Catechism apply to such sports as well?

I never said that these activities that you listed are definitely a violation of the fifth commandment (especiallly considering we are mostly talking about MMA fights etc), but I’m sure they can be…After all, an example given in the catechism itself is a “love of speed”. Do you now doubt the catechism?

Obviously, you seem to be on the extreme side of things

I think it’s safe to say that most saints were a little “extreme”. Look at St. Francis. Do we all really need to embrace absolute poverty, as well as literally embracing lepers etc? Don’t you consider his actions a little “extreme”? Do you think you’d ever see him at an MMA fight, especially considering MMA’s pedigree (aka, arenas where Christians were martyred)???

it seems that any form of dangerous sport would automatically be labeled as against the provisions cited.

I don’t know for certain, but this would certainly seem to be the case with many, considering the definiton of “extreme” in dealing with sports (as I mentioned earlier, an “extreme” sport is one where if you “mess up”, it most likely means serious injury if not death). Gratuitous, unnecessary danger and physical harm should probably be avoided. After all, we invoke the “Our Father” prayer to “lead us not into temptation”…That is, we ask God not only to keep us from sin, but also from the temptations themselves that will lead us to those sins, why should we not also steer clear of real and proximate physical dangers such as MMA and “extreme” sports that have the inevitability to lead us to pain and even injuries?

No bishop, not even the Pope, has gone that far as you have, obviously. So why do you apply it to such things when the Catholic Church itself hasn’t?

But the Church has given us the Catechism, and even the smallest mind can see from a glance that there’s more to “thou shalt not kill” than just those four words! Besides, do you require a specific, case by case anathema before you won’t commit an action, or can you use your God-given gifts of analysis and critical thinking to simply see what the church is saying through its official documents and come to an answer?

Human errors happen; even in flying, for instance, one can end up dead. Let’s take some other sport–soccer, for instance. an accidental trip–not intentional–can lead to injury or even worse. So, by your notion, should we then put soccer in the same category?

Absolutely not! As I have said a number of times, just look at the aims of the thing. For instance, with flying, as with driving, the goal is to get somewhere quickly and SAFELY. The goal of flying a plane or driving a car, unlike MMA, isn’t to kill, hurt, or maim people.

Again, sport by itself is putting one’s self to harm. We can cite other sports, such as skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, roller skating/rollerblading/surfing…the list can go on and on. Each sport is a rush in adrenaline.

Right, each sport deals with adrenaline (as does playing the violin in a music competition, which involves absolutely zero physical danger, as far as I’m aware), and the adrenaline is not the main issue. The GOAL of the activity, and the means by which it is accomplished, is mainly what would decide whether an activity is ok or not. The goal of skiing is not to hurt other people or oneself, even if that does occur occasionally. Same goes for skateboarding, roller skating/rollerblading/sufing etc.

Heck, American football is a very dangerous sport. Why not put it in the same category?

See above. What’s the goal of football? Is it to literally beat somebody until they’re unconscious or tap out? Duh, no! It’s to move a ball across a grass field, unlike MMA.

See, you’re simply being extreme to the point of absurdity.

Actually, by citing sports and activities (such as flying!!!) and comparing them to gladiatorial type beatings you are the one crossing the line of absurdity. I didn’t condemn all sports, nor did I even condemn fighting. A time comes in every young man’s life where he wants, and NEEDS to learn to defend himself, which is a very Catholic notion. The only thing that I’ve condemned so far is a sport where the main goal is to hurt another human being. Do you want to be hurt in that manner? Think of the golden rule. You may want to knock somebody down and have the victory, but you wouldn’t want them to do that to you!

Sports is a rush in adrenaline–basketball, football, baseball, tennis–all thrive in that rush. All have the potential for injuries.

Thanks, Einstein, but I’m not talking about “potentials” here. If you sit in a chair in the house you still have the potential of having a plane fly through your front window and kill you! Does it sound like I’m condemning sitting in your house now too? No, I’m condemning actions which DIRECTLY and intentionally, wantonly result in the pain and injury of others. What other sport does that DIRECTLY? Football? I don’t think so, otherwise you’d have people unconscious after ever single play. Surfing? Again, I don’t think so (though in some instances, such as surfing the big stuff off of Hawaii, it is not to be recommended except as a rush of adrenaline due to putting oneself in VERY proximate personal danger for no reason).

 

[Abenadar]

Because it resulted in deliberate murder and exploited unwilling participants.

Oh, ok, so exploiting willing participants makes it ok.

Professional martial arts competitions have neither. Heck even I wouldn’t mind fantasizing myself in the middle of a coliseum/arena and going one-on-one with a respectable adversary as long as a fair fight in insured beforehand.

Of course, you’d also fantasize that you know all the right moves and don’t experience any of the nerves either. I guess that’s why it’s called fantasy.

Your analogy is flawed right at the first sentence. People don’t fight to satisfy their aggressions.

Says you, but that’s beside the point. Read my other responses.

That’s what dummies are for. (Heck that’s what I play video games for ).

Yeah, dummies and wives and children…Who was that last wrestler last year who killed his entire family before taking his life?

They do it, like in all other competitive sports/games, to measure their skills.

Finally, you make a valid point…Unfortunately, this isn’t the only reason. See my other posts, particularly since this is off topic anyway. The point is, is this acceptible? My answer, after reading yours and other people’s answers and “arguments”, is that while most sports, by their nature, are alright, MMA isn’t due to the direct violence which is at its heart.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Of course not! I did this myself, as did every single other boy I know/knew! The main objective of riding a bike, rollerblading (rollerskating in my case…LOL), or skateboarding is not to injure other people by hitting them, choking them, or submitting them! That’s all I’m saying. The MAIN objective of MMA etc is to hurt people so badly that they either CAN’T, or WON’T fight back. See?

No I don’t see cuz this is deviating from your previous stance that any sport that involves putting yourself in danger for the “love of speed” is bad. Sounds like somebody’s still pretty undecided. From your last post, it wouldn’t matter if the objective was to hurt. Your issue was that it put human life in “danger” in your attempt to apply the Catechism. Sadly, for you, we’ve seen how logically unsound that was. Just admit it, you’re losing your grip with the discussion.

Listen…This is bogus. “Just because”…Whatever. I grew up in Santa Monica, CA, and bodysurfed most days every summer, regardless of how large or small the suft was…And it can be pretty big there (and it doesn’t curl north or south, but all at the same time, coming parallel to the beach, so no chance of riding a curl if it’s too big!!! Scary!). Anyway, the point is, no fight I’ve ever seen was as bad as riding the face of a monster wave, yet I kept doing it! Was it prudent? No. Was it fun? Most of the time (except when held underwater by the force of a huge wave)…Was I probably doing something sinful by putting myself in a very real, and very dangerous place? Absolutely! Did I live in a “bubble”? Absolutely not! I know what it’s like to have thrills.

I’m afraid that I have to correct you. It sounds more like you knew but that’s beside the point. What you did in the past does not change what you’re trying to sell now. You’re promoting the over-secure life of living in a shell. Period. It doesn’t matter to me whether you chickened out of a life like that, simply grew tired of it, or wanted to do something better, you are still imposing your views on people that it’s better for them to lock themselves up at the home/seminary/convent knitting socks than seek a thrill seeking life.

Actually, the older I get and the more I study the faith, the more I realize how futile certain actions are! Christ could have come down from his cross when taunted by Jews and soldiers, and could literally have killed them all…but he didn’t. Many saints could have fought hard (!!!) against the people who were about to martyr them, but didn’t!!! They realized that the spiritual life is infinitely greater than the physical! The body is mortal…The soul isn’t.

First of all, you really don’t get that the only reason why Christ didn’t fight back (and told others not to defend him) was that it would mess up the whole plan for everyone’s salvation. Secondly, martyrdom is sadly overrated these days and the martyr mentality can even be sometimes bad in itself. Good for the saints to be martyred but they didn’t live in a time where the martyr mentality could be used by the same people who’d now blow themselves up for Allah or promote religious suicide.

You do know martial arts are usually advertised as “self defense”, right? I never said there was anything wrong with defending oneself!!! Actually, I defended a right understanding of defending oneself and one’s family (remember???)! The commentary to the fifth commandment also speaks about this point!

Wrong, martial arts are advertised as exercise programs as much as self-defense. Where else do you think Tae Bo (an exercise routine derived from fighting moves) originated? Your last post said that putting oneself in danger for the sake of “useless” activities was sinful. However, since they can be used to promote fitness you’ve suddenly shifted to an unrelated topic regarding self defense? :ehh:

Don’t be ridiculous! What is the ultimate end of MMA? What is the ultimate end of cooking? I don’t know about “professional” chefs, but me personally, when I cook some food, you better believe that the “end” is so that I can eat it! I’m not lookin’ to go 12 rounds with an angry bull just so that I can ultimately put him into a submission hold, kill him, and then throw some steaks on the grill…

That’s why I said professional cooking and not the household stuff you’re doing genius. My point is there are a ton of competitive sports and activities that put yourself at risk for the sake of competition, pleasing an audience, and satisfying a panel of judges. In fact boxing has just as much need of submission as MMA. And for goodness sake, stop saying that the ultimate goal of MMA is to kill people. How many times have people here already told you? The goal is submission, not murder.

Time and time again, you and your cohorts prove to be the naive ones! I never said that your goal is to be a canonized saint…Though it ought to be to become one (canonized or not!). I understand that people have doubts about themselves. Listen bro, I’m human too, and probably err in more ways than you do every single day, but nevertheless, our goal should be to be great Catholics, not mediocre Catholics who barely get into heaven (though, once upon a time, I thought that exact way too!). You know what they say, aim for the moon, land among the stars (or conversely, aim for the stars, land on the moon). Either way, you and I should be aiming for Heaven, not for purgatory. Aim for heaven, and you may end up in purgatory. Aim for purgatory, and you just might find that that wasn’t enough…God bless!

I don’t claim to be sinless either. However, I’m also not an optimist. Sorry but why do you think I study what constitutes mortal sin and among other things? It’s so that I could be precise in where I land in the afterlife as a result of my actions. I don’t like going the reckless, pseudo-suicidal route of maximizing my religiosity and desire for sainthood just for the sake of landing in the place where the less saintly people wind up in.

Convent? You’re a female? Oops, sorry. I called you “bro”…I think I meant “sis”. Are you a guy or girl?

I’m a dude. If you’re trying to sound funny here by deliberately avoiding my point, it’s not working. -_-;;

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I don’t know why! I’m probably not that much older than you (aka, you and I may be part of the same ‘generation’ depending on when we were born…I was born in '82). All I’m saying is that gratuitous violence found in MMA and elsewhere (where the objective is literally pain and violence) is not a good thing. On the other hand, how many other “organized” sports do you know where pain and submission are the actual stated goals of that sport? I’m not for being a killjoy! I’m all for having fun…but understand that certain types of “extreme” fun, where the end is nothing more than beating somebody, or getting a cheap thrill (like bunji jumping, or however you spell it), is less than desirable. I’m all for:

Driving cars
flying airplanes
biking
sports (whose objectives aren’t clearly the pain and suffering of others)
chess (psych…chess is gay)
checkers (lol…even gayer)
etc.

I’m not for:
Gratuitous violence and sports where the stated objective is to Beat the living ^&%$^#@ out of somebody. I mean, are we men, or are we animals? Are we Christians, or are we heathens?

No. Again, what were you trying to establish with the whole fifth commandment and the Catechism? It was based on your premise that deliberately putting yourself in danger for the “love of speed” is sinful. Period.

Furthermore, you again did not consider the fact that even sports like football, hockey, and rugby have “pain and violence” as one of several goals of such games. You can’t have a football game without needing to mow someone all the way down to the dirt.

Dude, if you think skateboarding equals “speed”, you’re living in the 19th century, no offense.

You’ve never seen someone ride up a large half-pipe or grind down a railing now have you?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Oh, ok, so exploiting willing participants makes it ok.

Exploited and willing are contradictory terms. Thanks for shooting yourself in the foot.

Of course, you’d also fantasize that you know all the right moves and don’t experience any of the nerves either. I guess that’s why it’s called fantasy.

Actually the fantasy aspect comes in the form of the ‘right moves’ being flashy elemental spells or the ability to transform into some tokusatsu super hero. And trust me, I am very skilled in the moves used in those departments.

Says you, but that’s beside the point. Read my other responses.

I wasn’t talking to you there was I? -_-;;

Yeah, dummies and wives and children…Who was that last wrestler last year who killed his entire family before taking his life?

So a nutcase who broke the rules of professional wrestling is a good reason for why all the other respectable wrestlers should be sitting at home? Thanks, I know how your logic works now.

Finally, you make a valid point…Unfortunately, this isn’t the only reason. See my other posts, particularly since this is off topic anyway. The point is, is this acceptible? My answer, after reading yours and other people’s answers and “arguments”, is that while most sports, by their nature, are alright, MMA isn’t due to the direct violence which is at its heart.

Violence is an undeniable aspect in any martial art. Therefore, any sport that tests someone’s martial arts skills will inevitably be violent by their nature. The goal however (and the thing that you have the most problems with), is still to measure one’s skills. People who are skilled in martial arts have been given a talent by God. A talent that would go to waste if all it did was beat up hanging sand bags without at least taking it to another level of simulated combat (a.k.a. sparring and eventually something along the lines of MMA).

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

See above. What’s the goal of football? Is it to literally beat somebody until they’re unconscious or tap out? Duh, no! It’s to move a ball across a grass field, unlike MMA.

If that were true then you wouldn’t have people smashing each other to ground.

 

[Middleman]

why does this priest not wear his collar?

I had been wondering the same. I did some research on him, he is considered very liberal by some.

 

[shockerfan]

Excuse me, shockerfan, but apparently you have forgotten what I have written in previous posts which have everything to do with your silly and illogical post above. I ask you, what is the purpose of getting into a motor vehicle? Is it to inflict as much damage as possible on other motorists in order for them to get off the road? Of course not, and to think that you actually offered this example as “proof” of anything just goes to show that you’re not even trying to understand my point…It’s argument for the sake of…you guessed it, argument!

People get in cars in order to SAFELY and quickly go from point A to point B. People step into an arena to HURT PEOPLE AND MAKE THEM SUBMIT! See the difference?

While there are deaths in vehicles every day, the OBJECT of driving is not to kill or be killed (or injure or be injured, for that matter).

Actually the goal of mma is to win. That can be done by a 10 second arm bar, in which both competitors walk away injury free. The goal is to win.

You mentioned extreme sports before

Do you understand that that was an example that can be applied to many “extreme” sports? What’s the definition of “extreme” in terms of sports/activities? I’ll tell you: it means if you err or screw up, you will probably be seriously injured or dead.

There are 40,000 deaths a year from driving. Thats kind of extreme. If you screw up driving you can die. Many times we drive and the trip isn’t necessary…is that not a violation of the 5th commandment (using your arguments), since the risk to life is much greater than if I didn’t drive at all?

You may want to call my rebuttal “silly and illogical”, but ad hominem attacks do not make you right.

 

[shockerfan]

So Abenadar said:

That’s probably because you didn’t read what the catechism actually says about the fifth commandment. Hint: there’s more to it than “Thou shalt not kill”.

Then even posted the Catechism. Then Milliardo replied:

Hhmm…so where in the Catechism does it specifically say it is against contact sport of any kind? None in the provisions cited does it, directly or indirectly, apply towards any contact sport. So, take your pick–would that be CCC 2265, 2269, 2288, 2290, 2302, 2306, or 2320? We could take each provision apart and I guarantee you, it will not apply to any contact sport. I, for instance, you cite 2269, your argument falls apart quickly–no contact sport has the intention in bringing, directly or indirectly, a person’s death. The key word here, if you notice, is wilfull intention. So that automatically rules out CCC 2269. How about 2288–oopps, no dice again. By having a referree and a physician at each and every match, the sports in question follow this carefully–reasonable care is applied in holding every match. How about 2290? Again, no go; same with 2288, by having a referree, judges and physicians, organizers see to it that there are no excessive moves that would place a person’s life in grave danger. We go then to 2302–so where again is the intention to kill in any of the sports in question? The closest you could get might probably be 2306; then again, as stated, no contestant of any of those sports join them for the simple sake of harming people. So again, no go. How about 2320? Well–do people murder in contact sports? As you can see, your application of the provisions towards contact sports is badly skewd. I’m afraid you apply the provisions too much. Not even the bishops nor the Pope himself have applied these provisions to any contact sport.

OK, Abenadar, you have replied to all other posts except this one. Please respond.

 

[shockerfan]

OK, when presenting arguments about the topic of “Ultimate Fighting is Murder”, I would suggest Abenadar that we all do so in a polite way, and in doing so avoid a lot of hypocrisy. Also, I suspect that a reading of the other parts of the Catechism about how we treat others may be in order.

Perhaps you should stick with argument and fact about a specific subject rather than attempting to malign the person presenting the counter-argument by asserting lame and asinine assumptions.

I’m surprised I need to explain this to adults.

The following comment was made with a large amount of sarcasm:

I’m glad you were able to respond with such succinct, coherent, and persuasive arguments.

And the rest of the ad hominem attacks

Perhaps it never sat well with you because you’re too drunk on the wonderous, gory, detailed, beautifully drawn yet disgustingly gratuitous violence in anime to actually consider that there might be something wrong with A LOT of anime and your general love of violence.

Somebody is exhibiting some “stupidity”…lol.

I have a feeling you’d consider our Lord, the Blessed Virgin, and St. Joseph to be bubble-dwellers.

…All to entertain the mob, which, as it happens, includes you! Small wonder…

Excuse me, shockerfan, but apparently you have forgotten what I have written in previous posts which have everything to do with your silly and illogical post above.

Listen…This is bogus. “Just because”…Whatever.

Wow, you’re really trying to miss the point. For the “special” people here…
…Little willie, this post was particularly special…

 

[WillieWonka]

Suuuuuure, buddy…Keep dreaming. You’d think that a contest so reminiscent of gladiatorial days would evoke revulsion from Catholics, who suffered so much in arenas. The violence from an MMA fight is unnecessary and gratuitous…All to entertain the mob, which, as it happens, includes you! Small wonder…

Most Catholics are smart enough to judge something on what it is, not what it is reminiscent of.

Anyone here an arena survivor?

 

[WillieWonka]

Wow, you’re really trying to miss the point. For the “special” people here:

The goal of driving:
To get somewhere SAFELY

The goal of MMA
To beat somebody into submission.

Yeah, cuz everybody knows that they couldn’t, ya know, reproduce that fire the next night, and the next, and the next…

Little willie, this post was particularly special…

“Special” people? Like the “Special Olympics?”

That kind of comment is what we get from bullies who prey on those with less cognitive ability than most. MMA fighters take on skilled opponents. Bullies pick on the weak.

 

[Abenadar]

No. Again, what were you trying to establish with the whole fifth commandment and the Catechism? It was based on your premise that deliberately putting yourself in danger for the “love of speed” is sinful. Period.

This is stated in the catechism.

Furthermore, you again did not consider the fact that even sports like football, hockey, and rugby have “pain and violence” as one of several goals of such games. You can’t have a football game without needing to mow someone all the way down to the dirt.

I did consider it, and if you go back and read you’ll see just how many times. As I said, THE objective of MMA is is submission by deliberate violence. While these things can happen in other sports it isn’t THE objective.

 

[Abenadar]

Exploited and willing are contradictory terms. Thanks for shooting yourself in the foot.

Are you serious? Consider prostitutes. They WILLINGLY offer up their bodies while simultaneously being exploited, not by one, but by two guys…the pimp and the john.

Violence is an undeniable aspect in any martial art. Therefore, any sport that tests someone’s martial arts skills will inevitably be violent by their nature. The goal however (and the thing that you have the most problems with), is still to measure one’s skills.

The thing I have a problem with is the manner in which the skills are measured…Unadulterated, unnecessary savagery against another human being.

People who are skilled in martial arts have been given a talent by God. A talent that would go to waste if all it did was beat up hanging sand bags without at least taking it to another level of simulated combat (a.k.a. sparring and eventually something along the lines of MMA).

It’s not the gifts you are given, but rather how you make use of them, that determines the value of a thing.

 

[Abenadar]

If that were true then you wouldn’t have people smashing each other to ground.

Once again, the objective is to move a ball, and block people. Also, those big lugs are wearing huge pads. I wanna see MMA fighters start competing in those huge, big, fat sumo suits. That would be hilarious.

 

[Abenadar]

Actually the goal of mma is to win. That can be done by a 10 second arm bar, in which both competitors walk away injury free. The goal is to win.

You only state half of it: The goal is to win by violence, in any way possible (except, I imagine, avoiding the junk and maybe a few other no-nos).

There are 40,000 deaths a year from driving. Thats kind of extreme. If you screw up driving you can die. Many times we drive and the trip isn’t necessary…is that not a violation of the 5th commandment (using your arguments), since the risk to life is much greater than if I didn’t drive at all?
The car again? Seriously? Even with an unnecessary trip in a car is done in order to get somewhere safely. Nobody’s saying accidents don’t happen. The violence of MMA isn’t an accident. That is purposefully harming people.

Question: If you get into a car with the intention of hurting somebody by hitting them, but don’t actually see anybody to hit, are you still culpable for your intentions? Yes you are, because you have already commited the act in your heart regardless of whether it physically happened…Just like the example of lusting after somebody…You don’t need to actually do the deed if you have already done it in your heart.

On the other hand, if you get into your car with the intention of going somewhere safely, how is that wrong? Oh, that’s right, it’s not.

You may want to call my rebuttal “silly and illogical”, but ad hominem attacks do not make you right.

Perhaps you should look up the definition of “ad hominem”. I’m not attacking your person, I’m attacking your arguments, and I defended my reasoning. I didn’t say “you’re stupid because…you’re stupid”. That would be…stupid (and ad hominem).

 

[Abenadar]

OK, Abenadar, you have replied to all other posts except this one. Please respond.

I thought I had, even if I didn’t actually respond to him personally.

Hhmm…so where in the Catechism does it specifically say it is against contact sport of any kind?

Where in the catechism does it say it isn’t against contact sports? Well, it doesn’t do that either.

None in the provisions cited does it, directly or indirectly, apply towards any contact sport.

You’re right that it doesn’t directly talk about MMA etc, but it does, in a general way (as is appropriate for a book that can’t list every example in the world) speak against it.

MMA is violence for the sake of violence, which is unlike most other sports (except extreme sports, which are usually danger for the sake of thrill, which is equally condemned, the example given was excessive love of speed) because you may have incidental violence (such as in football, where you run into each other to stop the other guy…but even in football you’re not kicking and punching and choking the other guy).

I have already touched on the principles of my argument so many times already, but if you really want me to do a point-by-point of what milliardo said, let me know.