T
TheWarriorMonk
Guest
As well as adopted Asian children that are Catholic.
- Status
I
irishpatrick
Guest
It is not an excuse. It has happened many times. It is prophesized to happen again in very large numbers toward the end times. People who are attached to this world rarely see a need to reach out to God. Why do you think Jesus told us to make a choice between the world and God? Why, also, do you suppose that the Bible tells us that it is more difficult for a rich man to ge to Heaven, then it for a camel to pass through an eye of a needle (ouch).
Recall how the Churches filled for weeks after 911, but then after time the attedance when to pre-911 levels. At first the people felt scared and worried, so they reached out to God. Then, after they became comfortable again, they stopped going. Same thing–prosperity and comfort often leads to laziness in faith…people take things for granted and stop practicing their faith, and then they fall into all sorts of nonsense.
None of this excuses anyone…every person is bound to learn their faith and to follow Christ. The point the older woman was making is valid, attachment to worldly wealth is a roadblock in the path to real faith.
What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?
In that verse I just quoted, the obvious background implication is that the person has attached themself to the world and its riches, and in the process they have lost their soul.
T
TheWarriorMonk
Guest
Remember that you aren’t arguing with a bunch of uninformed secularists…you’re arguing with a bunch of informed Catholics, several of whom have considered Catholic School for their children. If informed Catholics with firsthand experience disagree on the subject, it is obvious that that current situation isn’t working. And also note that the major issues we are discussing coincide with the OP.
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
And people who hate the world turn to drugs and alcohol and sometimes attempt suicide. I suppose they might get around to reaching out to God if they survive and decide to sober up.
I
irishpatrick
Guest
If you study Scripture (perhaps you have), then you will see that God allows people to sink to very low depths. He does that so that at their weakest moment, they will finally jetison their ego and pride and then turn back to Him.
T
TheWarriorMonk
Guest
School is about academics. What does the above have to do with academics?
I
irishpatrick
Guest
I assume this was meant for me.
I agree, and I never said people here are not informed. It does no harm to try to reveal a side they might have thought of, or post some facts that they might not know about. Some people here have argued that Catholic schools are not good academic performers, and that alone is a point that is simply false, and provably false.
Put it this way, if a parent rejected a Catholic school because they feel RC schools do not perform well academically, then they are deeply mistaken. That is an important point to stress–Catholic student outperform public school students in standardized tests, and in SAT’s and ACT’s, every year.
How to fix the faith issues in our schools is complex, and all opinions are needed…but we do need to get to work because we waste time talking and not acting on solutions.
I
irishpatrick
Guest
No! Catholics schools exist to provide faith formation, with academics being second to that. Therefore, my post 100% applies.
C
CradleJourney
Guest
Be warned - very long post - but you asked
I’m not sure I’ll properly explain it, but I’ll try. (Please note as I refer to “Catholic” and “Public”, I am ONLY referring to the ones my children could or do attend.)- Public school offers accelerated student only classrooms/classes. (Two of my children fall into the high-ability category - and yeah, I don’t blame someone who’s never dealt with a true high ability kid to think that’s a “mommy bragging”. No, really, they’re regular kids emotionally, but their brains work in an entirely different manner than other kids - which is both a benefit and a hindrance - trust me!). Anyway being accelerated in elementary school in some subjects allows them to take some classes for high school credit in middle school, and have more room in their high school schedules for upper level math and dual-credit (college) courses. The public school also offers partly accelerated classes (two more of my children benefited from this) where they did one year of high school math in middle school.
Our Catholic school offers extra work for those students who are academically gifted but they are in the same classroom as everyone else and it is only this year that they started working on the possibility of getting them high school credit for that work.
- Public school offers remedial tutoring in an ongoing group setting. (Yep, each of my kids is different). This set-up greatly benefited one of mine who was struggling in one area. By setting it up in a group format with regular opportunities to either enter or leave the tutoring program, the kids who need it don’t feel singled out as they might if they were only one of the thirty students in a class who had to leave for tutoring.
- I know the staff and volunteers - both of the public elementary school and the Catholic religious ed department. These are knowledgeable, skilled, trained, dedicated, caring people who are focused on the kids. As you move into the public middle school and high school, you get both the good and the bad, but so far the good has far outweighed the bad and the public school employees at the elementary school - from custodian to the teachers to the counselor are some of the best.
- Financial Cost - sure, we could get a discounted rate on the 2nd child at the Catholic school, more discounts on the 3rd and then the 4th would be free. But with the number of children we have and their ages, the “free” would only apply for a few years here and there. When they move onto Catholic High School, the real problem of four to six thousand a year kicks in - on top of the tuition at the grade school which is not adjusted for how many kids you have in high school.
- And that brings us to the continuality factor - the public schools are set up to funnel kids from the elementary, through the middle school, and into the high school. I’ll use band as an example - you get “tested” for your interest and ability in band during music class in 5th grade, if you choose, are put into band in 6th grade at the middle school (camp starts the week you get out of 5th grade). Depending on your skill, you can be marching with the high school band before the end of 8th grade. And assuming you don’t quit, will move promptly into the high school band (and band class) when you start high school. All very smooth - elementary music teacher works with the middle school band teacher who works with the high school band director. However - if you transfer into the public school in 7th grade or later - well, you don’t get to be in band - unless you already know how to play an instrument (aka private lessons), can pass their audition and their is room for you. Ditto for choir, drama club, Brain Game team, etc. Also, those gifted courses I mentioned. In theory, someone transferring in could possibly make it into one of the groups - but only if they had extensive outside training and a very determined advocate. Call me practical - but the easier my life is, the better - I really have enough on my plate without adding any extra battles by switching my kids from one system to another. (Catholic schools also funnel - but on a different time frame from the public ones).
C
CradleJourney
Guest
Continued:
- As mentioned before this brings us to the simplicity factor - it is true that some of my children at some grade levels would do fine at the Catholic school. But when I factor in the cost of continuing that through high school, the stress and isolation issues of transferring them from one school system to another and the fact that for some of them being in the public system is best - well, I’m sorry - not going to make my life anymore complicated by having some attend public, some attend Catholic and/or attend one for some years then switch to the other.
- They are getting what they need - remember those awesome catechists I spoke of? I feel they are adequately getting the background religious education during their weekly CCD classes and their overall spiritual education from myself and their father. They see it in action through their boy scout troop. A certain other poster may disagree - but if their needs academically, socially, and spiritually are being met - why not do it in the least expensive and simplest manner possible.
- And along with that I have the experiences (15 years with this parish) of observing closely the parents and children of the Catholic school and the parents and children who are part of our parish but attend the public school. It’s very sad to say that while individual members of both groups are wonderful living examples of the Catholic faith, I’ve personally neither seen, heard, nor experienced anything that would lead me to believe the ones attending the Catholic school are (for the lack of a better term) “better” Catholics than the others. In fact I would say weekly mass attendance is higher among the CCD families
- And though it’s probably controversial, there is another, very personal - as they all are I guess - reason that I continue to send my kids to public school - but I want to reaffirm my reasons and views are just that and I respect everyone else’s right to choose differently.
And for my other ones? Well, the one I mention who is attending a Catholic college is doing so because she feels strongly called to work in the field of liturgical music - and from chant to Haas wants to learn the meaning behind and the influence of music and our relationship to God. So her major is Pastoral Music Ministry. So apparently attending public school didn’t hurt her faith too much - and it turns out, once again, she seems to know quite a bit more about the Catholic faith than her fellow students - many of whom have been in Catholic schools all the way.
The other younger ones - well, they aren’t exactly of an age or inclination to be as outgoing in their faith with their friends as the older two - but the fact they are Catholic, know what it is to be Catholic, and are out there playing and socializing with their friends who’s parents come from a variety of Christian and atheist backgrounds - I feel is part of our family’s response to the Gospel. We don’t go to the grocery store wearing pro-life t-shirts, and we don’t talk about religion all the time. But we don’t hide the fact that we are Catholic, and I have prayed for and with the public school teachers as many times as I have with the Catholic CCD ones. After all, it’s my duty to be a light too.
So, in a nutshell, while neither choice perfectly meets my children’s needs, I find that it is easier for me to supplement their religious experiences at home in addition to what they learn at CCD (which is good - but not perfect). And that this decision not only seems to be working well for us, but is also turning into somewhat of a blessing (God can work all things towards good).
As I indicated previously - I have a somewhat unique situation. I feel truly blessed that I have the choices between two (actually three if you count the Lutheran ones) school systems that are doing a decent job of teaching the majority of their students well. For us to place the kids in a Catholic school, which may not fit each of their needs, which may or may not increase their faith, for a limited time until finances compel us to shift them to public school just doesn’t work for us. Even if they each had full scholarships and provided transportation, k thru 12, I’d be torn based on reasons 8 and 9. Actually, I really think in that very unlikely situation, I’d probably split them depending on each child’s abilities, interests and personalities.
Anyway - bless you if you actually made it this far grin But hey - you asked! (and are now probably sorry you did! LOL!)
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
CradleJourney, thanks for the full reply. I would have guessed some of those but all of them are very practical reasons not to choose Catholic schools.
As much as I love the concept of Catholic schools I just have a hard time seeing how they are going to survive without the implicit subsidy of religious teachers.
CCD of one hour a week seems like even less than the one course (approximately one hour a day) typical of Catholic schools. Of course, parents are key, at least in the early years.
What concerns me most, though, is the loss of Catholic community. It’s not obvious to me how a Sunday CCD could compensate for that.
What are your thoughts on that?
As much as I love the concept of Catholic schools I just have a hard time seeing how they are going to survive without the implicit subsidy of religious teachers.
CCD of one hour a week seems like even less than the one course (approximately one hour a day) typical of Catholic schools. Of course, parents are key, at least in the early years.
What concerns me most, though, is the loss of Catholic community. It’s not obvious to me how a Sunday CCD could compensate for that.
What are your thoughts on that?
J
JimG
Guest
They don’t ask for 10%; they ask for 8% of income, which is reasonable since it provides tuition free education all the way through high school. Once a year parishioners–actually the entire diocese–is asked to complete stewardship forms, not just for contributions, but for time, talent, and treasure: numerous volunteer opportunities and prayer support.
It’s not just parents who are asked to support the Church through stewardship. Everyone is. But suppose a family has been in a parish for a few years and are starting a family. They don’t have to worry about tuition.
Now, I suppose parishioners could lie about their income when completing their stewardship forms. If one wants to lie, that’s not good stewardship, but that’s not common. And of course, not everybody returns the forms, or even registers in the parish. But then when you need to get married or buried or anointed or confirmed, nobody has a record of you.
In any case, it works. When the school test rankings come out each year in the newspaper, parish schools are always rated very high.
I’ve known people in other dioceses where tuition is charged, but it is charged per family, not per child.
And I have some relatives who homeschooled all the way through high school. They were way ahead of their peers and finished up their high school early with college level coursework, giving them a headstart at university.
There’s no one answer to Catholic education, but I’ve seen it work and work very well.
C
CradleJourney
Guest
You’re welcome. Thank you for reading it all
As far as the curriculum of the CCD versus the Catholic schools - the main difference caused by the different lengths of time (and ours is 1.5 hours a week, btw) that I’ve noted is the lack of depth regarding biblical stories, and the “real life” applications of our teachings. Both of which I work hard to fill in at home. Just like I fill in the gaps where their other education falls short (our district decided learning cursive wasn’t needed - I decided they were going to learn it anyway). Hubby and I may argue about other things but we both feel strongly about the word “parent” being a verb - not just a noun.
Your concern about the loss of Catholic community is definitely a valid one.
For us, personally, it’s been a rocky situation where we’ve been warmly included in some things (bible study, Boy Scouts, quilting, and run club). And we’ve been either grudgingly accepted or excluded from others (CYO football, reverse raffle, Girl Scouts). We’ve been basically shunned by some parish members, particularly parents who do send their children to the parish school, but we’ve been warmly welcomed by others.
Thinking of the larger picture, I won’t say that Sunday CCD could fully compensate for the loss of a school community. It IS a community though - not only do you have all those who volunteer to teach it, and all those who assist with it, but you have the parents who o stay in the gym and have coffee and socialize, while the kids are in class. Also, it could be supplemented through scouts, sports (I believe CYO allows for teams based on parishes not schools but I could be wrong), and special projects that involve the parish (ours has a particular food bank/shelter that we have a special connection with).
All I really know is that God is good, and as long as we are open and willing to His call, we’ll find the right paths - which will probably be as unique as our various parishes and families
M
manualman
Guest
Some of Cradle’s example I certainly can’t relate to. Both my two older kids attend catholic schools and have become accomplished in the saxophone and flute respectively by the end of 4th grade in a band program IN the school. This isn’t unusual in my area either, it’s the norm.
Some of the points are valid: 3 times the money per student (our money, I’ll gripe) DOES open some extra doors.
I also will close here with a reminder of how I opened. Culture and values are not taught so much as absorbed. We live in a post-Christian culture that has become very hostile to catholic values. Corporations spend billions of dollars every year to get 30 second ads on your TV because they WORK. They succeed in changing people’s decisions and behaviors. Anybody who thinks sending their children off to the mercy of our secularized culture at large for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week and thinks that won’t have a negative influence on their minds and souls doesn’t understand the human condition and the workings of Grace.
Some of the points are valid: 3 times the money per student (our money, I’ll gripe) DOES open some extra doors.
I also will close here with a reminder of how I opened. Culture and values are not taught so much as absorbed. We live in a post-Christian culture that has become very hostile to catholic values. Corporations spend billions of dollars every year to get 30 second ads on your TV because they WORK. They succeed in changing people’s decisions and behaviors. Anybody who thinks sending their children off to the mercy of our secularized culture at large for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week and thinks that won’t have a negative influence on their minds and souls doesn’t understand the human condition and the workings of Grace.
I
irishpatrick
Guest
That is a very interesting model…something to consider.
It would seem this would be far more faith across the board. In most parishes parents need to pay tuition for their kids, and they are still expect pay a certain amount to the parish. For example, say tuition for two children is 7k, and the parish giving is often around 10% mandatory for those same families…include fees, etc., and those parents have to give 8k or more to the school and parish, while everyone else gives less than 1k annually. I think the biggest challenge is to convince Catholics that Catholic education is the responsibility of the entire parish–not just a select few.
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Aside from the swipe at corporate advertising (as if that were the difference between Catholic and secular schools), I agree with the above and it’s why I am most hesitant to give up on Catholic schools.
But one must ask: are Catholic schools worth the money? Are they succeeding at creating a Catholic culture? I see little evidence of success.
If Catholic schools were succeeding then you’d expect to see them growing, not dying.
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
I had long been a big proponent of Catholic schools, even though my own experience was not especially positive, but lately I have begun to think about alternatives. Your prior post and this give me much to think about in this regard. Thank you for sharing.You’re welcome. Thank you for reading it all
As far as the curriculum of the CCD versus the Catholic schools - the main difference caused by the different lengths of time (and ours is 1.5 hours a week, btw) that I’ve noted is the lack of depth regarding biblical stories, and the “real life” applications of our teachings. Both of which I work hard to fill in at home. Just like I fill in the gaps where their other education falls short (our district decided learning cursive wasn’t needed - I decided they were going to learn it anyway). Hubby and I may argue about other things but we both feel strongly about the word “parent” being a verb - not just a noun.
Your concern about the loss of Catholic community is definitely a valid one.
For us, personally, it’s been a rocky situation where we’ve been warmly included in some things (bible study, Boy Scouts, quilting, and run club). And we’ve been either grudgingly accepted or excluded from others (CYO football, reverse raffle, Girl Scouts). We’ve been basically shunned by some parish members, particularly parents who do send their children to the parish school, but we’ve been warmly welcomed by others.
Thinking of the larger picture, I won’t say that Sunday CCD could fully compensate for the loss of a school community. It IS a community though - not only do you have all those who volunteer to teach it, and all those who assist with it, but you have the parents who o stay in the gym and have coffee and socialize, while the kids are in class. Also, it could be supplemented through scouts, sports (I believe CYO allows for teams based on parishes not schools but I could be wrong), and special projects that involve the parish (ours has a particular food bank/shelter that we have a special connection with).
All I really know is that God is good, and as long as we are open and willing to His call, we’ll find the right paths - which will probably be as unique as our various parishes and families
I
irishpatrick
Guest
One hour or so of RE formation per week is woefully inadequate, and does not in any way compare to an all week long exposre to Catholic schooling.
The advent of so many kids in RE is exactly why we are seeing adults with a weak and close to knowledgeless faith. Those kids one hour a week, for only eight months of the year, and their parents often do not know the faith very well–so we have a constant lowering of the faith knowledge with each new generation.
Sure, some parents step-up and do a great job, most do not.
Now, couple all those things that RC school students get regarding the faith to the fact that Catholic schools undeniably outperform public schools in academics, and it becomes a no brainer which is the better place for most Catholic kids–the only issue left is financial, and that has been my main point all along, we have to get Catholics to step up for Catholic schools.
Beyond all that, students in RC schools are NOT exposed to the agenda often found in public schools…that alone is a serious consideration, to have our kids pulled from what is often a counter-faith environment.
- In faithful RC schools the teachers are allowed (and do) speak of Jesus and the faith throughout the entire school day, and they take the opportunity to bring matters of faith (as examples) into verious topics and subjects.
- Faith formation in RC schools is normally every day, not once a week by a less than fully trained volunteer Catechist.
- Many (not all) RC schools hold weekly Mass for the entire student body.
- Many (not all) RC schools hold Confession once a month, sometimes once every two months, and quite often invite guest Priests to help.
- Most RC schools will speak to the students about vocations, and will have guest speakers to discuss this subjects.
- Most RC schools will have their students taking at least on charitable field trip a year to learn how to serve the poor and elderly.
- Most RC schools will see the Pastor visting classrooms on a rotating schedule, with talks and questions scheduled for the kids.
- Most RC schools celebrate days many Feast Days, and will draw particular attention to Christmas, Easter, and to All Saints Day. Many times kids dress-up as Saints.
- Most RC schools require deeper formation for First Communion, and Confession, and they often have to write reports for those Sacraments, and especially for Confirmation.
- Confirmation is a missing (yet still critical) Sacrament for the majority of Catholics, yet kids who remain in Catholic schools also receive that Sacrament from their local Bishop.
- RC school kids normally get first shot at altar serving.
- RC school kids (the younger ones) typically get formation tours of their Church, and they are taught the major portions of the structure and the associated elements used for Holy Mass.
- RC school kids learn much more about the history of the faith, and they are taught a great deal about the Popes.
- RC schools kid learn to pray the Rosary, and many other Catholic prayers.
- RC school kids are taught about Lent and are expected to sacrifice something personal during Lent…they speak about the Passion of our Lord, and often learn how to do the Stations of the Cross.
The advent of so many kids in RE is exactly why we are seeing adults with a weak and close to knowledgeless faith. Those kids one hour a week, for only eight months of the year, and their parents often do not know the faith very well–so we have a constant lowering of the faith knowledge with each new generation.
Sure, some parents step-up and do a great job, most do not.
Now, couple all those things that RC school students get regarding the faith to the fact that Catholic schools undeniably outperform public schools in academics, and it becomes a no brainer which is the better place for most Catholic kids–the only issue left is financial, and that has been my main point all along, we have to get Catholics to step up for Catholic schools.
Beyond all that, students in RC schools are NOT exposed to the agenda often found in public schools…that alone is a serious consideration, to have our kids pulled from what is often a counter-faith environment.
I
irishpatrick
Guest
One hour or so of RE formation per week is woefully inadequate, and does not in any way compare to an all week long exposre to Catholic schooling.
- In faithful RC schools the teachers are allowed (and do) speak of Jesus and the faith throughout the entire school day, and they take the opportunity to bring matters of faith (as examples) into verious topics and subjects.
- Faith formation in RC schools is normally every day, not once a week by a less than fully trained volunteer Catechist.
- Many (not all) RC schools hold weekly Mass for the entire student body.
- Many (not all) RC schools hold Confession once a month, sometimes once every two months, and quite often invite guest Priests to help.
- Most RC schools will speak to the students about vocations, and will have guest speakers to discuss this subjects.
- Most RC schools will have their students taking at least on charitable field trip a year to learn how to serve the poor and elderly.
- Most RC schools will see the Pastor visting classrooms on a rotating schedule, with talks and questions scheduled for the kids.
- Most RC schools celebrate days many Feast Days, and will draw particular attention to Christmas, Easter, and to All Saints Day. Many times kids dress-up as Saints.
- Most RC schools require deeper formation for First Communion, and Confession, and they often have to write reports for those Sacraments, and especially for Confirmation.
- Confirmation is a missing (yet still critical) Sacrament for the majority of Catholics, yet kids who remain in Catholic schools also receive that Sacrament from their local Bishop.
- RC school kids normally get first shot at altar serving.
- RC school kids (the younger ones) typically get formation tours of their Church, and they are taught the major portions of the structure and the associated elements used for Holy Mass.
- RC school kids learn much more about the history of the faith, and they are taught a great deal about the Popes.
- RC schools kid learn to pray the Rosary, and many other Catholic prayers.
- RC school kids are taught about Lent and are expected to sacrifice something personal during Lent…they speak about the Passion of our Lord, and often learn how to do the Stations of the Cross.
The advent of so many kids in RE is exactly why we are seeing adults with a weak and close to knowledgeless faith. Those kids one hour a week, for only eight months of the year, and their parents often do not know the faith very well–so we have a constant lowering of the faith knowledge with each new generation.
Sure, some parents step-up and do a great job, most do not.
Now, couple all those things that RC school students get regarding the faith to the fact that Catholic schools undeniably outperform public schools in academics, and it becomes a no brainer which is the better place for most Catholic kids–the only issue left is financial, and that has been my main point all along, we have to get Catholics to step up for Catholic schools.
Beyond all that, students in RC schools are NOT exposed to the agenda often found in public schools…that alone is a serious consideration, to have our kids pulled from what is often a counter-faith environment.
I
irishpatrick
Guest
Folks, one last point (I have said enough here) for you to consider:
If tuition in all RC schools was free, and if they were all faithful, would you rather see kids in those schools, or in public schools? (sometimes we let money cloud our basic views)
If you would rather see kids in the schools (if tuition was free), then the solution is for us to find ways to make RC schools much more afforable so that we can form the next generation in the faith. Turning the nation, and the world, back to Christ, is not going to be easy and it will take a ton of work–yet RC schools are one huge tool to be used in that effort.
Thanks to all for a robust chat,
God Bless to everyone.
If tuition in all RC schools was free, and if they were all faithful, would you rather see kids in those schools, or in public schools? (sometimes we let money cloud our basic views)
If you would rather see kids in the schools (if tuition was free), then the solution is for us to find ways to make RC schools much more afforable so that we can form the next generation in the faith. Turning the nation, and the world, back to Christ, is not going to be easy and it will take a ton of work–yet RC schools are one huge tool to be used in that effort.
Thanks to all for a robust chat,
God Bless to everyone.
- Status