Priest: You've contracepted our parochial school out of existence

[Bubba_Switzler]

As for your points about not being the best schools, I disagree fully. A non-Catholic private school is inferior to a Catholic school for the very fact that it is not Catholic.

Catholic schools are there to provide academic educations (and the vast majority do a much better job than their public school counterparts); however, a RC school exists to formed children in the faith and to have them receive the sacraments, etc. No other private school can approach that,

It has been my experience that they are failing on both goals. Catholic schools need to offer the best, or at least competitive, academic experience and too often they do not. They promise by way of compensation to provide Catholic instruction but they are failing here too.

Now you might argue that parents should still prefer a nominally Catholic school over an explicitly non-Catholic school but parents faced with the choices available will often choose to send their children to non-Catholic private schools and rely on CCD and home instead to provide the Catholic instruction.

And where Catholic schools are best (e.g. in urban centers) they are almost always unaffordable for most.

 

[manualman]

Bubba, it may depend on location, but I’m wholly satisfied with the level of academics in catholics schools I’ve encountered. In fact, I think it would be disasterously bad for the schools to try to increase the snob appeal. We already have too much of that diluting the primary mission of the school, which is to provide an alternative to secularizing education in which our children receive basic knowledge about the world, society, God and the church, but also learn to think in harmony with the lessons the church has learned in 2,000 years of accumulated wisdom.

That mission is hindered if the student population has an excessive number of secularized students whose parents have little interest in the faith, but really just want junior to have a leg up on getting ahead in American consumer society. Those kids CANNOT be allowed to be the majority of the student population or the school is useless. Parents have as much influence on establishing the culture of a school as the staff and if too many parents are there to get their kids an elite private schooling or a premier athletic program, their kids will be brats and ruin the catholic culture of the school. Those sorts of “catholic” schools don’t raise strong believers, they innoculate kids against catholicism and instill cynicism instead. No thanks!

Focus on the faith. Academics ARE a part of that, but don’t let it degenerate into mere snob appeal.

 

[Cider]

I thought it was spot on. We need more priests like him.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Bubba, it may depend on location, but I’m wholly satisfied with the level of academics in catholics schools I’ve encountered. In fact, I think it would be disasterously bad for the schools to try to increase the snob appeal. We already have too much of that diluting the primary mission of the school, which is to provide an alternative to secularizing education in which our children receive basic knowledge about the world, society, God and the church, but also learn to think in harmony with the lessons the church has learned in 2,000 years of accumulated wisdom.

That mission is hindered if the student population has an excessive number of secularized students whose parents have little interest in the faith, but really just want junior to have a leg up on getting ahead in American consumer society. Those kids CANNOT be allowed to be the majority of the student population or the school is useless. Parents have as much influence on establishing the culture of a school as the staff and if too many parents are there to get their kids an elite private schooling or a premier athletic program, their kids will be brats and ruin the catholic culture of the school. Those sorts of “catholic” schools don’t raise strong believers, they innoculate kids against catholicism and instill cynicism instead. No thanks!

What concerns me about your comment is the dismissal of the pursuit of academic excellence as snobishness and secularity. In fact, it would be more accurate to say that your approach surrenders academic execllence to the snobs and secularists. (I should warn you that this is one of my top five pet peeves so I will apologize in advance for any harsh comments I make.)

Should we be surprised, then, that when the Church surrenders science, business and other academic pursuits to atheists and snobs that it becomes a marginal inflence on society?

Yes, a 2000+ (I would argue 3000+) year history during most of which the Church was the leading intellectual light in society. But not anymore. First it was the Protestants and now it is the pagans and secularists. So very, very sad.

Focus on the faith. Academics ARE a part of that, but don’t let it degenerate into mere snob appeal.

Academics are an essential element of a Catholic education. I don’t know how it was at your Catholic school but where I went we had one religion course and the entire rest of the curriculum was academics. Among my schoolmates it is those who went on to religious life who are the most harsh toward our religious education. The rest of us are largely dismissive of our academic education.

Parents are right to expect better for their hard earned money.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Bubba is 100% correct. The Catholic elementary schools by us are having major problems, and have had for decades. Yet the high schools are not. The difference? Simple…academics and various excellent extracurricular activities. In fact, one of the pastors at my Church left our parish to teach there. He is an unbelievably good speaker, teacher, tough guy, and excellent with kids of high school age. So good in fact, he makes me want to go to that high school, which has an excellent reputation. That’s what is needed, not simply having more children.

 

[Corki]

It has been my experience that they are failing on both goals. Catholic schools need to offer the best, or at least competitive, academic experience and too often they do not. They promise by way of compensation to provide Catholic instruction but they are failing here too.

Now you might argue that parents should still prefer a nominally Catholic school over an explicitly non-Catholic school but parents faced with the choices available will often choose to send their children to non-Catholic private schools and rely on CCD and home instead to provide the Catholic instruction.

And where Catholic schools are best (e.g. in urban centers) they are almost always unaffordable for most.

Aiming for “the best” academic “experience” is not a valid goal for Catholic schools. Sure, academics must be important but if Catholic see themselves as competing with the elite private schools, those that cost over $20K per year, they will not only fail but miss the mark on their purpose.

Parents should prefer a Catholic school to a non-Catholic school unless there is a glaring reason to opt against the Catholic school. The school may be prohibitively expensive, may have little to no Catholic identity or may have some health or safety issue. Those would be valid reasons to choose not to send your children to that particular school. There are very few reasons to choose not to send your children to Catholic schools as a category. The only one I can think of would be having a child with such special needs that a public school is the only way to get the care he/she needs.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Aiming for “the best” academic “experience” is not a valid goal for Catholic schools.

Then they will fail. Oh, wait, they already are…yet the ones with great academics aren’t. Coincidence?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Aiming for “the best” academic “experience” is not a valid goal for Catholic schools. Sure, academics must be important but if Catholic see themselves as competing with the elite private schools, those that cost over $20K per year, they will not only fail but miss the mark on their purpose.

This would only be true if academic excellence were somehow incompatible with religious instruction. Then there would be a conflict between the two.

If you believe that then I cannot reach you.

But if you believe, as I do, that academic excellence is an essential element of a properly formed Catholic mind then you will see the two as complementary and academic mediocrity as a great betrayal of Catholicism.

Look at history to find counterexamples to your claim. In medieval times, for example, the best and brightest were sent to Catholic monestaries for the best education and this, in turn, led to monks being the best and brightest and to the Church being the most influential institution in society.

 

[Corki]

Then they will fail. Oh, wait, they already are…yet the ones with great academics aren’t. Coincidence?

No. Education cannot be a “keeping up with the Joneses” activity. They should absolutely have great academic environments. But they shouldn’t aspire to outspend the elite private schools on all of the non-essentials.

Unfortunately, parents have been conditioned to judge schools based on non-essentials. Who cares if the school has 10 sports teams or if they use state-of-the art smart boards in class?!?

 

[Corki]

This would only be true if academic excellence were somehow incompatible with religious instruction. Then there would be a conflict between the two.

**If you believe that then I cannot reach you.
**
But if you believe, as I do, that academic excellence is an essential element of a properly formed Catholic mind then you will see the two as complementary and academic mediocrity as a great betrayal of Catholicism.

.

No, but I do believe that you cannot strive to be “the best” (your words), the superlative, at academics and still a) keep a strong Catholic identity and b) attract good Catholic families willing to pay $20K + per year in tuition. You just can’t have it all. You can have an elite private school experience or you can have a solid (academically and spiritually) Catholic school experience.

Look at history to find counterexamples to your claim. In medieval times, for example, the best and brightest were sent to Catholic monestaries for the best education and this, in turn, led to monks being the best and brightest and to the Church being the most influential institution in society

By today’s standards, those would not even be considered good schools, let alone great. They may have taught their brightest and best to be scholars. They may have created an environment where learning flourishes. But today schools aren’t judged that way. Schools are considered “the best” if they have high paid faculty with graduate degrees, state-of-the art equipment and facilities, multiple extracurricular activities and lots of kids going on to ivy league schools.

We have been conditioned to think of education as a commodity. The schools are expected to “give” kids an education rather than provide an environment where kids learn to apply basic academic principles, develop strong skills and find something they love.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

If the school lacks the non-essentials, has lesser academics that the local public school (which in my case is very good), and will dramatically strain the pocketbook to the point where it affects my children, am I obligated to send my children to it simply because it’s Catholic?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No, but I do believe that you cannot strive to be “the best” (your words), the superlative, at academics and still a) keep a strong Catholic identity and b) attract good Catholic families willing to pay $20K + per year in tuition. You just can’t have it all. You can have an elite private school experience or you can have a solid (academically and spiritually) Catholic school experience.

By “best” I simply mean competitive, among the best. Parents should not have to sacrfice academics for religious education. There is no reason to suppose that a Catholic oriented educational experience costs more than a secular/pagan one.

Of course, opinions will vary but in fact if Catholic schools are only about as good as other private alternatives then that should be sufficient. If the local Catholic school is almost as good as the best private school then of course Catholic parents will send their children to the Catholic school.

The problem arises when the Catholic schools are only marginally better than public school alternatives, which is generally the case.

By today’s standards, those would not even be considered good schools, let alone great. They may have taught their brightest and best to be scholars. They may have created an environment where learning flourishes. But today schools aren’t judged that way. Schools are considered “the best” if they have high paid faculty with graduate degrees, state-of-the art equipment and facilities, multiple extracurricular activities and lots of kids going on to ivy league schools.

We have been conditioned to think of education as a commodity. The schools are expected to “give” kids an education rather than provide an environment where kids learn to apply basic academic principles, develop strong skills and find something they love.

In medieval times Catholic schools were the ivy league!

Of course, offering a superior educational experience requires great teachers and that costs money. That’s why I addressed that issue among my three points.

I don’t know any parents who look for the best schools to “give” their kids and education as you describe. The best schools engage the students and excite them about learning. They are intellectually stimulating environments.

 

[Corki]

If the school lacks the non-essentials, has lesser academics that the local public school (which in my case is very good), and will dramatically strain the pocketbook to the point where it affects my children, am I obligated to send my children to it simply because it’s Catholic?

Yes. If it is a solid Catholic school, that might be a financial reach but is not impossible to afford, that has solid academics without the non-essentials, there is no reason not to send your kids there.

The first option should be a Catholic education for your kids. There should be a very good reason behind choosing a different environment instead. Catholic parent shouldn’t be putting several options on the table and choosing the best one. The first and only option on the table should be the Catholic school. Only if you are **sure **it is not a good environment should you add other options to the decision making mix.

 

[irishpatrick]

It has been my experience that they are failing on both goals. Catholic schools need to offer the best, or at least competitive, academic experience and too often they do not. They promise by way of compensation to provide Catholic instruction but they are failing here too.

Now you might argue that parents should still prefer a nominally Catholic school over an explicitly non-Catholic school but parents faced with the choices available will often choose to send their children to non-Catholic private schools and rely on CCD and home instead to provide the Catholic instruction.

And where Catholic schools are best (e.g. in urban centers) they are almost always unaffordable for most.

I disagree. RC schools almost always outperform their public school counterparts.

 

[Corki]

By “best” I simply mean competitive, among the best. Parents should not have to sacrfice academics for religious education. There is no reason to suppose that a Catholic oriented educational experience costs more than a secular/pagan one.

It doesn’t. Catholic schools are on par or less expensive than the other private schools (at least in my part of the country). Even when compared to public schools, Catholic schools cost about half of what public schools cost at the elementary level and are still more cost effective at the high school level.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I disagree. RC schools almost always outperform their public school counterparts.

I agree that they geneally outperform public schools (often just barely). But public schools are free!

The question is why do Catholic schools do so poorly in comparison with private schools. Why are they such a bad investement for parents both in terms of academics and religious education?

And note that I have not forgotten the main point of this thread. The best proof of the failure of Catholic education is the lack of new Catholic children.

 

[irishpatrick]

Then they will fail. Oh, wait, they already are…yet the ones with great academics aren’t. Coincidence?

They are not failing because of academics. They fail for lack of students, and there are a plethora of reasons for that–mainly because the majority of Catholics are really secular-paganists like the majority of the population. Catholic parents (today) see no value in a Catholic formation, so they don’t bother. That is the failure…not academics.

 

[manualman]

It’s a question of defining excellence, really. Does excellence require that each student have a $4,500 laptop (obsolete every other year, of course), that the gymnasium have NBA quality wood floors, that the theater be of a quality that would make Shakespeare faint, etc? That’s what youre REALLY paying for at a $15k/year school. That’s not the basis of educational excellence.

Academic achievement arises from a love of learning and the cultivation of self discipline. This requires dedicated teachers and committed parents. If you have those, you can do without a LOT of the expensive fluff. If you lack those, all the expensive fluff in the world won’t help outcomes.

But for catholic schools, the point is NOT to make parents and students feel that they are smarter and worthier than public school kids. That’s a snake pit, actually. The point is to educate in an environment that cultivates and reinforces the faith.

My kids catholic school is 3 years old and is full to the rafters. They keep tuition under control, keep a lid on frivolous spending and maintain a laser focus on cultivating a wholistic catholic culture in the school. Other regional catholic schools that have taken the tack of bragging about their test scores and college results of alumni (while having an anemic catholic identity) are struggling to stay open. We’re full to the max.
Our school works hard to achieve academic excellence. But it’s not the main marketing hook we use or want to use. In fact, people not active attendees at weekly mass are assigned lower priority for admissions precisely in order to maintain the culture desired in the school. We don’t want to be a place whose mission is to get the kids ahead in commerce. We want to be a place that teaches the faith, the whole faith.

 

[Corki]

I agree that they geneally outperform public schools (often just barely). But public schools are free!

The question is why do Catholic schools do so poorly in comparison with private schools. Why are they such a bad investement for parents both in terms of academics and religious education?

And note that I have not forgotten the main point of this thread. The best proof of the failure of Catholic education is the lack of new Catholic children.

Public schools are not free. In my school district the public schools cost about $10K per student at the elementary level, while Catholic schools range from $5-8K. The fact that you don’t see the cost in an annual tuition bill doesn’t mean they are free.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

It doesn’t. Catholic schools are on par or less expensive than the other private schools (at least in my part of the country). Even when compared to public schools, Catholic schools cost about half of what public schools cost at the elementary level and are still more cost effective at the high school level.

Public schools are not free. In my school district the public schools cost about $10K per student at the elementary level, while Catholic schools range from $5-8K. The fact that you don’t see the cost in an annual tuition bill doesn’t mean they are free.

Parents don’t pay tuition to public schools.

Parents who can’t afford tuition will send their children, for free, to public schools.

Parents who can afford tution will look for the best academic experience for their children. If that is not a Catholic school then they will rely on CCD and home for religious education.

If Catholic schools were at least doing a bang-up job on religius education they might at least have a chance.