Priesthood and celibacy question for my fellow Easterners (and Latin brethren as well 😊)

[ziapueblo]

Saint Josaphat Kuntsevych did persecute the Orthodox Church, having Orthodox priests arrested for offering the Divine Liturgy. The saints are not perfect.

ZP

 

[dvdjs]

Many saints have blood on their hands.

I am unfamiliar with blood on the hands of Fr. Toth. and not sure in the least what your response has to do with anything.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Do you have a Catholic source for this? I have his biography by Theodore Boresky and will check it out too but would like another Catholic source for comparison.

 

[dvdjs]

I’m sorry but there’s no comparison

Wiki is not bad; it avoids the worst polemics.

Josaphat Kuntsevych - Wikipedia

Article 14 of the Union of Brest made this, “most important” point:

Most important of all, it is necessary that if in our dioceses presbyters - Archimandrates, Hegumenoi, presbyters, and other clergy, but especially foreigners, even bishops and monks who might come from Greece - of our Religion should not wish to be under our obedience they should never dare to perform any divine service. For if that were allowed then there would never be any order.

Those bishops who choose new management were concerned about schism and determined to keep their flocks intact against those who, in all sorts of ways, sought to divide them - including per Wiki, installing priests opposed ot the Union, who commemorated both the EP and the Ottoman Sultan in their liturgy.

This was the first article of Union to be abandoned by the governing authorities.

This note in Wiki, caught my eye:

Norman Davies wrote, in God’s Playground that Kuntsevych "was no man of peace, and had been involved in all manner of oppressions, including that most offensive of petty persecutions – the refusal to allow the Orthodox peasants to bury their dead in consecrated ground in other words, he prohibited burial of Disunites in Uniate cemeteries.

In polemics, this act is made out to be that he threw the bones of Disuniates to the dogs. Far from an an example of “all manner of oppression” and “petty persecution”, however the canonical use of church consecrated burial grounds remains an issue to this day. I recall a story form a few years ago in the US:

http://old.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010211churchfight6.asp
http://old.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20000402carpath5.asp

At least there was no conspiracy to commit murder.

 

[XXI_4]

Is this actually the custom in the East?
We just had a thread on it and there is no such custom for married Latin Rite priests (who say Mass daily so they would basically be required to abstain from sex with their wives continuously) but we didn’t know the answer for ECs.

All the married EC and Orthodox priests that I personally know have children.

They are required to abstain from sex with their wives as part of their pre-liturgy fasting. If the fasting is supposed to be nothing to eat from midnight until after the next morning’s liturgy, then they would be required to abstain from sex during that same period.

So, even daily liturgy would not be out of the question. Sex would just have to be before midnight, or whatever the fast requirement is.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Latin Rite pre-liturgy fast is only 1 hour before, so that shouldn’t be too hard if we had to do it, given that the priest will likely be at church preparing for Mass or at least on his way there.

However, I think someone already posted that Latin Rite has no such requirement for the married priests already ordained into it.

 

[Agathon77]

Considering what I’ve heard here about the wife’s consent is needed, like our Deacons; I can imagine it’s hard for a woman married to a priest. A real sacrifice, I’d think @Tis_Bearself

 

[dochawk]

He was not ejected

An interesting spin.

Being told that he is not a priest and that the bishop that sent him was not a bishop was basic Christian charity, I suppose . . .

He taught Church history and Canon Law at the Presov seminary, I have seen no biography that saws he was a the Seminary rector.

I find it hard to believe that you actually searched and didn’t notice the usage “director” where a US seminary would use the term '“rector” . . . in almost every single article . . .

 

[dvdjs]

An interesting spin.

Being told that he is not a priest and that the bishop that sent him was not a bishop was basic Christian charity, I suppose . . .

Well we only have narratives from Fr. Toth. But even he is reported to admit that "the conversation became more heated as it progressed, with both men losing their tempers.[5]

Toth had the idea that “he and other Eastern Rite Catholic priests in North America were to be recalled to Europe, and their parishioners folded into existing Roman Catholic congregations in their respective cities.[7]” . History shows that he was dead wrong about that. And while it took a century of development to properly establish the Greek Catholic churches in the US, the swallowing up of the Rusyn in the ROC took very little time to recognize - cf the story of Stephan Dzubay, and, later, the formation of ACROD.

I find it hard to believe that …

you used the rector when this word is not iuse din almonst every single article.

 

[Agathon77]

@dvdjs,

I find what His Excellency Archbishop Ireland did to Fr Toth was horrible. Simply,

 

[dvdjs]

I find what His Excellency Archbishop Ireland did to Fr Toth was horrible. Simply,

What did he do? How do you know what he did?
I think that what Fr. Toth did to people in my church could also be called horrible.

 

[Agathon77]

@dvdjs,

Reading online sources and what another poster wrote here corroborates that Archbishop Ireland drove Fr Toth to lead 20,000 ECs from the Church to the EO. All because Fr Toth was a married Eastern priest who wore his wedding ring to his meeting with Archbishop Ireland and the Archbishop threw him out just for that.

Quite bigoted and insensitive.

They’re part of our Church too.

 

[dvdjs]

Reading online sources and what another poster wrote here corroborates that Archbishop Ireland drove Fr Toth to lead 20,000 ECs from the Church to the EO

What source, beside the story of Toth himself, do you have to support the Ireland drove him anywhere?

There are several important points here:

1. The ecclesiastical problem of handling the influx of Catholics from different regions in the world to the US that already had an existing Catholic structure was a work in progress. It was a problem even for Roman Catholics form Eastern Europe, but even more so for Greek Catholics. And btw, the cognate ecclesiastical issue still is a major problem for Orthodox in the US.
2. Toth and Ireland are outliers in this story. However difficult the problem was, Toth, and Toth alone led the schism.
3. The issues that ostensible led to the blow-up between Ireland and Toth had little bearing, in reality, on Toth’s missionary activity. His traction was primarily on the matter of trusteeship.

They’re part of our Church too.

I am a cradle Greek Catholic. And my ancestors were, for centuries, part of the Greek Catholic Church in what is now Slovakia. We are in communion with your church. Nec plus, nec minus.

 

[Agathon77]

@dvdjs,

Dude; please calm down. I wasn’t saying anything like the ECs aren’t our Church. Okay?

Next: What you’re saying, I think; is that the row between Fr Toth and Archbishop Ireland was really over administrative overload?

 

[dochawk]

Well we only have narratives from Fr. Toth.

Yes, the man who crossed the ocean by boat to minister as a Catholic priest, and, per canon law, reported to the local bishop, whose responsibility is to all rites . . .

Toth had the idea that “he and other Eastern Rite Catholic priests in North America were to be recalled to Europe, and their parishioners folded into existing Roman Catholic congregations in their respective cities.[7]” . History shows that he was dead wrong about that.

???

The bigoted RC bishops REQUESTED the Rome pull them all. That’s about 180 degrees from “dead wrong:”

you used the rector when this word is not iuse din almonst every single article.

Are you deliberately “misunderstanding”, or trolling?

“Rector” is the term that would be used in the US, and “the director of” is the term used in almost every article, although some omit the article.

What source, beside the story of Toth himself, do you have to support the Ireland drove him anywhere?

Once again, we’re at the “basic background for participating in a discussion” point, and you instead insisting everyone “document” matters that are part of such a basic knowledge to make up for your missing background. In all seriousness, this is at the “How many Sacraments are there” level, and the difference in the Western and Eastern use of “Seven.”

I’m trying not to put this as, “Shh, the grownups are talking,” but that’s really the type of thing we’re looking at here.

As for this “other source” question: go to every single contemporary source, and ever non-polemical statement from either the OCA or the BCC.

To put it another way, you’re trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs–and you’re doing it wrong!.

Next: What you’re saying, I think; is that the row between Fr Toth and Archbishop Ireland was really over administrative overload?

No.

In the context, it would be Fr. Toth offering to help with that load, and the bishop whose name I won’t repeat (may it be forgotten) rejecting the help, and then going on to reject the Union of Uzrod, and denying that Fr. Toth is Catholic.

 

[dvdjs]

I wasn’t saying anything like the ECs aren’t our Church.

We are a sui juris Church in communion with the RCC. Language that the ECC’s are “our Church” may have been proper in Bishop Ireland’s time, but not now.

the row between Fr Toth and Archbishop Ireland was really over administrative overload?

No. The row was because of a lack of charity. It was manifestly unecessary.

 

[dvdjs]

Yes,

Agreed.

That’s about 180 degrees from “dead wrong:”

History has spoken.

Once again, we’re at the “basic background for participating in a discussion” point, and you instead insisting everyone “document” matters that are part of such a basic knowledge to make up for your missing background

If you think that my request for documentation reflects my missing background, you couldn’t miss the mark more widely. Ditto your sense of who is knowledgeable and who is not.

I’m trying not to put this as

If so, you kinda blew it.

Union of Uzrod

'nuff said.

 

[Agathon77]

@dvdjs,

Wow. I don’t know what to say; other than I think we all need to calm down. It’s over and done with and hopefully things can and will get better.

I’ve spoken with the Easterners, EC and EO; here and I know there’s been problems. However: I respect the ECCs and Eastern Tradition. We need both lungs.

 

[dvdjs]

Wow. I don’t know what to say; other than I think we all need to calm down. It’s over and done with and hopefully things can and will get better.

Things are better. Although it seems that you may still be missing the key elements of how things are better.

In the course of the last century, we obtained our own Bishops in America. More importantly, the idea of co-located sui juris Churches of different traditions resolved the problem of the Episcopal administration of parishes from different traditions imn the same territory. This idea was unimaginable a century ago - and this problem is still an unresolved in Eastern Orthodoxy. In addition, aspects of our particular tradition that were suspended here - because they were seen as problematic by fellow Catholics unfamiliar with them - have been re-established. All of this happened within a century - arguably warp speed in ecclesiastical terms. I see these developments as very positive, and don’t understand the point of indulging resentments over past difficulties.

I don’t think that a reasonable argument can be made that Fr. Toth advanced any of this.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

However: I respect the ECCs and Eastern Tradition. We need both lungs.

Sending you a (virtual) hug.