Priesthood and celibacy question for my fellow Easterners (and Latin brethren as well šŸ˜Š)

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Margaret_Ann said:
My pastor is a married UGCC priest who has 2 parishes, is a hospital chaplain, makes sick calls almost every day and somehow finds the time to do gardening. Honestly, I donā€™t know how he does it
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Which proves that if you want to get something done, ask a very busy person to do itā€¦ Mature marriages with children have normally a kind of built-in celibacy, in that there is neither time nor inclination for the marriage bedā€¦ And once one spiritually matures into a relationship with God that is the Marriage of the Lamb - ā€œI the Lord thy God am a JEALOUS Godā€¦ā€ - Worldly considerations for someone engaged fully in that relationship pretty much drop away, and persecutions become events expressing his or her love for Godā€¦

The EOC dodges the Priestly celibacy issues by requiring monastic tonsure of Her Priests in order that they become Bishops, and Bishops can have been married, but must normally be widowers in order to be elevated to the Episcopacyā€¦ And normally, elevation to the Priesthood is delayed until the children are well alongā€¦ I know of one that was not, and the Presbytera died, and the Priest asked to marry for the sake of his children, and the Bishop blessed his second marriage by laicizing him immediatelyā€¦ This would not have been needed had the Priest not been but a Priest but still a Deaconā€¦

One might say that while the celibate Priesthood is merely a local rule of a local (Latin) Church, it has not been affirmed by an Ecumenical Council received by the whole (eg catholic) Church, so it has no application outside its local jurisdiction, and this seems to be the direction the CC is taking, regarding the Latin Church as under one set of rules, and the EC as under another but in Communion with Romeā€¦

fwiw, There is a very honorable tradition in the EOC that permits husbands and wives to separate without divorce after the children are grown up in order to enter monasteries for the remainder of their livesā€¦ So married monastics are not necessarily the oxymoron that they might initially seem to beā€¦

geo
 
George720 said:
One might say that while the celibate Priesthood is merely a local rule of a local (Latin) Church, it has not been affirmed by an Ecumenical Council received by the whole (eg catholic) Church
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While that is true, I would like to correct one little misunderstanding many have. It is not celibacy that was mandated in Early Church, it was continence. Priests were supposed to separate from their wives at time of ordination and not engage in sexual relations with them. They saw them during day but not during night anymore. Latin Church enforced this a bit more and went into celibacy, while East relaxed those rules in Council of Trullo (IIRC) and allowed married Priests to engage in sexual relations with their wives but maintain fasting period before serving Liturgies. This is also reason Latin West celebrated Masses daily but practice in the East is not the same- or at least it is not normative. This is probably one of few fasts that East has easier than West šŸ˜ƒ
George720 said:
There is a very honorable tradition in the EOC that permits husbands and wives to separate without divorce after the children are grown up in order to enter monasteries for the remainder of their livesā€¦ So married monastics are not necessarily the oxymoron that they might initially seem to beā€¦
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That is beautiful and very good tradition.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
Maybe I should have visited the shrine of St. Alexis Toth after all when I was up near it.
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Saint Alexis Toth led hundreds of thousands of Greek Catholics to the Orthodox faith, rejecting union with Rome, while Bishop Andrei Sheptytsky, the Metropolitan Archbishop of Lviv, encouraged Greek Catholics in the United States to preserve their union with Rome.
 
And as I said, thatā€™s why I didnā€™t visit his shrine. That and the fact that I thought I might not be welcome as a Catholic.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
And as I said, thatā€™s why I didnā€™t visit his shrine. That and the fact that I thought I might not be welcome as a Catholic.
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If need be, one can wear riot gear. Everyone was friendly when I visited the ACROD parish near me.
 
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The Romanian (corrected) Orthodox cathedral near my home always welcomes us, especially when they are putting on a fish fry or festival and we spend our money there.

The Orthodox running the Church of the Nativity were downright mean to us though.
 
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And yet:

ā€œ the principle of celibacy was never completely surrendered in the official enactments of the Church."

From the same article. The argument that someone sinned ergo itā€™s official church teaching to me has always been a weak rebuttal. Thatā€™s the case evangelicals make against the church as well, three on this board I can think of off the top of my head. By this reasoning there isnā€™t a Christian church left in the worldā€¦

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
It seems to me that people in the thread have conflated big T tradition with small t tradition. Small t tradition has allowed priestly marriage (before ordination) with big T tradition celibacy/continance.

Whether someone violated big T is regardless of what the church teaches. Violation does not negate teaching.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
But as many Church officials (and popes) have publicly stated, the [t]radition of celibacy is not big T tradition (which is unchangeable), but simply a matter of Church discipline. It is changeable. The question is whether the change at this moment is prudent, and whether the Church in the West is sufficiently prepared to handle such a change in discipline. Judging from the reactions of the laity and the clergy all the way up the hierarchy, Iā€™d say the Church in the West is far from sufficiently preparedā€¦
 
Perhaps someone can substantiate this, but wasnā€™t one of the results of the ecumenical council in 325 AD that they establish that -priests should not be required to be celibate? I know that the Latin church has a long history now of celibacy in the clerical ranks, but that I donā€™t believe there an established council decision to this effect demanding celibacy. It seemed to be more of an established discipline rather that a doctrine.
 
The topic of married priests seems to be more of a problem for those in the RC Church because they view it only from the RC structure. In the Eastern Church, the structure is not the same, and more often than not, the wife of the priest has an Orthodox upbringing and priorities are set differently. I have only heard of 1 priest from the Eastern Church being divorced, and it had nothing to do with being married or his priestly duties being infringed upon. Many of the wives of Eastern priests accept their role, are active in Church programs, and see their side of the commitment as a sacrifice too. There seems to be teamwork and organizational skills in place especially priorities when it comes to worship and prayer. While the priests may be married, Bishops are not, and there are monks who do not marry, live celibate and become priests. Quite often the monks are called upon for direction and confession.
 
Any virtue carried in pride becomes vice - A much more horrible vice than the virtue was a virtueā€¦ Celibacy is one of theseā€¦ We have all born witness to the fruit of the pride of celibacyā€¦ And few want to even look at that fruitā€¦ I sure get too pleasure from itā€¦

But if you see the Church as a Hospital with a Nursery and a Delivery Room, and the Clergy as Doctors and Mothers, the Church is in the constant and ongoing Labor of delivering men from sin and Birthing them into Christā€¦ What I am endeavoring to suggest here is that the Labor of giving Birth - A Priestly function if ever there was one - is NO HONEYMOON, OK? And most Priests who are actively laboring in the discipling/birthing of men into God live a very naturally induced marital celibacy that is a function of their functional Ecclesiastical life as a priestā€¦

And the simple truth is that because of the need for more priests, we end up ordaining them before they have gained the maturity in the Faith needed, with the result that they can and often do suffer a kind of ecclesiastical burn-outā€¦ They need our prayers, you seeā€¦

And the Church qua Church, the Big-T Church, has never required Her Clergy to not be marriedā€¦ But She HAS required the deposing of Clergy for un-chastityā€¦ Sometimes it has even been enforced! This human condition in which we live is seriously messed upā€¦ We find Priests addicted to porn, to young teen boys, to little girls and dogs, and to God alone knows what else in those kinds of sins, who are kept in the Service of the Churchā€¦ All of which is but to say that the Church is no stranger to all manner of sins in all manner of positionsā€¦

I know of but one case in which it was properly handled - The Bishop was called in to a Parish Council meeting, the parishioners with the Priest there showed pictures of their children inappropriately dressed at a ā€œpartyā€ā€¦ He simply asked the Priest: ā€œDid you take these pictures?ā€ He said ā€œYesā€ā€¦ And the Bishop laicized him then and there, told him he had until morning to clear out his office, and he was then to go directly to the police department and make a full confession of all that he had done, and accept whatever punishment the court imposedā€¦ All this for the Salvation of the soul of the Priestā€¦

Everyone else was given much less bitter medicineā€¦ I believe that ex-priest is now back in a monastery under at least an 8 year penance of labors and very strict fasting and no Communionā€¦ And all he did was throw a co-ed pajama party and take picturesā€¦

He was a monk-priest living in vows of chastity, you see, serving in a parishā€¦

He could end up a Saintā€¦

Donā€™t know how I ended up in that excursusā€¦

geo
 
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Does Cardinal Sarah have an agenda for the Catholic East?

Quotes from Crux:

ā€œAnd he (Cardinal Sarah) posited that the Catholic Church has allowed the Eastern churches in communion with it to maintain optional celibacy for priests ā€˜to foster a gradual development toward the practice of celibacy, which would take place, not by a disciplinarian path, but rather for properly spiritual and pastoral reasons.ā€™ā€


ZP
 
Ooooooā€¦ Thatā€™s concerning. I respect Cardinal Sarah. Heā€™s a good and holy man. But I very heartily disagree with him here.
 
Agreed! I had always seen him as hope for the West. Many wish him to be Pope of Rome at some point.

ZP
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
Ooooooā€¦ Thatā€™s concerning. I respect Cardinal Sarah. Heā€™s a good and holy man. But I very heartily disagree with him here.
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On this matter, he should kindly but out and mind his own business.

(hmm, can we whack him politely over the head with the CCEO to return it, getting two birds with one stone? :crazy_face: šŸ˜± šŸ˜ [no, I am not really suggesting this!])
 
I would have to read the book before I would say the Cardinal is being ā€œextremeā€.
 
Iā€™m going to get an official source in order to answer your question. Will edit my post when he gets back to me.
 
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