Priestly Celibacy falsely justified by the Church?

[Contarini]

This person is commenting on the reason for priestly celibacy in the Church in the most tactful manner they can manage I presume. I was wondering if I could have some more enlightened Catholics respond to some of the things mentioned in the quote above. I’m especially curious about what they said concerning that the bible may have been edited to justify priestly celibacy?

It’s historical nonsense. For one thing, the understanding of the Crusades being presented isn’t supported by any of the recent scholarship on the Crusades. For another, the movement to enforce celibacy for priests predated the Crusades (the campaign continued after the Crusades had begun, granted). And finally, the use of the NT to glorify celibacy and hold it up as an ideal goes back to the very early Church. In both East and West, monasticism was held to be the highest form of Christian life. And in the West, there were attempts to get priests to be celibate as early as the 3rd century, if I remember rightly. The difference in the 11th century was that priests were actually separated from their wives rather than just being told that they really shouldn’t be having sex with them, as previously.

My former professor Elizabeth Clark (who is by the way an ex-Christian, though one might argue that since she’s an ex-Protestant her biases sometimes incidentally line up with those of Catholics!) wrote an excellent book called Reading Renunciation in which she discusses how early Christians interpreted Scripture to support asceticism (she’s talking especially of interpretations of the Old Testament, which is not on the face of it very ascetic much of the time!). She argues that ascetic attitudes are deeply rooted in the NT and can’t be seen as some kind of later departure from NT ethics. Certainly the reading strategies she describes show up very early in the history of the Church.

Edwin

 

[DevotedChild]

As paragraph 1580 states, in Eastern Churches married men can be ordained as both deacons and priests. But three of these Churches have adopted the rule of celibacy for their clergy.

Tell the Pope that you don’t feel these married men ordained in the Latin Church are really priests. He granted the exceptions. The Pastoral Provision was initiated by John Paul II and has resulted in Benedict XVI’s Angelicanorum Coetibus. You can get all the information on line. Here’s the announcement of Benedict XVI’s program.

telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6386833/Pope-Benedict-XVI-paves-way-for-thousands-of-disaffected-Anglicans-to-cross-over-to-Rome.html

Sui juris basically means autonomous or self-governing. Each of the sui juris Churches that comprise the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is heir to a particular spirituality, style of worship, religious art, canon law, and unique history. Recently the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church issued its own Catechism. These are primarily Churches that became Orthodox at the time of the Great Schism, but have since returned to Rome and are identified as Eastern Catholic. (The Maronites never left Rome.)

You can read about all of these autonomous Churches on line.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

Jim Dandy

um… Jim Dandy, wikipedia and an online newspaper are not valid sources. Please let me see where you get your information from that are valid sources and I will read it.

 

[Nicea325]

Whoa, that is so wrong. I hope you are talking about deacons because all priests are called to be celebrate once they take their vows and must be unmarried when they do so.

Nope,Jim is correct. Eastern rites have married priests and so does the Latin Rite. My diocese has six married priests some former Anglican and Episcopalian.

 

[PJM]

=Presence;8273012]This person is commenting on the reason for priestly celibacy in the Church in the most tactful manner they can manage I presume. I was wondering if I could have some more enlightened Catholics respond to some of the things mentioned in the quote above. I’m especially curious about what they said concerning that the bible may have been edited to justify priestly celibacy?

My dear friend in Christ. Your asking for trouble and it certainly is a way to find it.

PLEASE consider these facts:

1. Celebacy is a CC PRACTICE, neiter a doctrine or a dogma; thus it is changeable
2. For this very same reason The Hirearchy NEEDS no biblical or even Sacred Tradition to develope practices that She [Mother Church] deem are beneficial to souls. … Keep in mind Mt. 16:18-19 Gives to Peter; the SEE of Rome and the Magisterium ALL of the Power and Authority needed to Govern the Church. Giving of the "the very "key’s to heaven’ [literally!] and immediately giving the Pwer to “Bind and Loose” is very much a “blank-check” for UNLIMITED AUTHORITY OF GOVERNANCE;
   answerable Only * ONLY and directly to the King of Heaven: God Himself. This is affirmed also in John20:19-22 where the Apostles [and succesors] are given by God Christ Own Powers and Chist OWn Authority.

"AS THE FATHER SENT ME SO TO I SEND YOU"

1. While there is in Paul’s Teaching a biblical reference it is in an ABSOLUTE SENSE, completely unneeded.
2. The reason given is alone more than sufficient: “It is for the betterment of souls”…! How SO?.
3. The secuLar and biblical teaching based on experience and LOGIC that teaches that "One cannot serve [WELL] two masters, is the cause and the effect of this lesson.
4. The Early Church permitted marriage. So WHY NOT NOW? BECAUSE experience has taught that Priest [and Religious] can be far more dedicated, more focused and be holier than married priest. IT"S as SIMPLE as that.

I do pray that this explains the policy for you?

God Bless,
Pat*

 

[Angel_Bradford]

um… Jim Dandy, wikipedia and an online newspaper are not valid sources. Please let me see where you get your information from that are valid sources and I will read it.

The information Jim is giving you is entirely correct.

A married man may be ordained, but an ordained man may not marry.

 

[DevotedChild]

The information Jim is giving you is entirely correct.

A married man may be ordained, but an ordained man may not marry.

I understand that (even though I don’t agree) however, the sources he gave are not valid ones.

 

[Brendan]

what on earth does sui juris mean? And how can there be 23 Churches in ONE Church?

Here is how

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/orientchurch/profilo/rc_con_corient_pro_20030320_profile.html

Vatican II even had a document refering to these Churches

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

The Catholic Church is made of of several distince (not seperate) Churches. The largest is the Latin Church. Others include the Rutherian, Chaldean, Maronite, Syro-Malabar etc…

Each of those has it’s own structure of bishops and it’s own dioceses (often called Eparchies).

A great example. I live in the Archdiocese of Detroit. The Archbishop of the Latin Church is +Vigneron. Also located near Detroit is the Chaldean Catholic Eparcy of St. Thomas in Southfield MI. The bishop of THAT diocese is +Ibraham.

The parishes of that diocese are under the control and administration of +Ibraham n. Ibraham. Archbishop Vigneron has no authority over them.

Here are the parishes of the Eparchy of St. Thomas
parishesonline.com/scripts/HostedSites/Org.asp?ID=21051

All of those parishes are fully Catholic. They just owe obedience to a different structure of bishops, under a different Code of Canon Law.

CCC:

1580 In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests… Moreover priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priest have freely chosen it for he sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.

I believe unless you are unmarried and ordained, I don’t feel that you are a priests. You may do ministry work but can not be fully ordained unless unmarried and remain that way. I come from the Latin Church.

You just contradicted the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that is not a good position to take

In the Eastern Catholic Churches, a married man may be ordained to the priesthood. They are then, in the eyes of anyone who holds the CCC (and the Church) to be authoritative, to be priests of the Holy Catholic Church.

 

[DevotedChild]

Here is how

.va/roman_curia/congregations/orientchurch/profilo/rc_con_corient_pro_20030320_profile.html

sorry but I didn’t understand this.

The Catholic Church is made of of several distince (not seperate) Churches. The largest is the Latin Church. Others include the Rutherian, Chaldean, Maronite, Syro-Malabar etc…

Each of those has it’s own structure of bishops and it’s own dioceses (often called Eparchies).

A great example. I live in the Archdiocese of Detroit. The Archbishop of the Latin Church is +Vigneron. Also located near Detroit is the Chaldean Catholic Eparcy of St. Thomas in Southfield MI. The bishop of THAT diocese is +Ibraham.

The parishes of that diocese are under the control and administration of +Ibraham n. Ibraham. Archbishop Vigneron has no authority over them.

I don’t understand that either. How can that be? Why are they made in the first place? I just don’t understand it.

All of those parishes are fully Catholic. They just owe obedience to a different structure of bishops, under a different Code of Canon Law.

how and why is that?

You just contradicted the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that is not a good position to take

In the Eastern Catholic Churches, a married man may be ordained to the priesthood. They are then, in the eyes of anyone who holds the CCC (and the Church) to be authoritative, to be priests of the Holy Catholic Church.

Fine! Their priests. But it just seems to me that they can be full priests unless they are unmarried. They are to give all of themselves. Even the some of the Twelve were married but once they followed Jesus they left their families and were seperated from them from then forth. How can priest give all of themselves to God is they are married?

 

[DevotedChild]

I guess all in all, what i am trying to say is: I just don’t understand it.

I am 18 years old and a pretty devote Catholic from the US. From I am from, there is no such thing as a married priest. I have heard a little about the Western and Eastern Churches. Why can’t it just be One Churches instead of several in one? Why are the different Catholic Churches made?

 

[Contarini]

I guess all in all, what i am trying to say is: I just don’t understand it.

I am 18 years old and a pretty devote Catholic from the US. From I am from, there is no such thing as a married priest. I have heard a little about the Western and Eastern Churches. Why can’t it just be One Churches instead of several in one? Why are the different Catholic Churches made?

Unity in diversity. I don’t like the “plural churches” language either, and in my ideal Church (which does not exist) there would be one local church on the ground which everyone in that neighborhood would attend, period. But a plurality of rites and traditions has always existed in the Church and is an expression of the Church’s Catholicity (universality).

Universality and unity are not about uniformity.

Edwin

 

[Jim_Dandy]

If you want to be a priest then in the Catholic Church, but not the Latin Rite, then you can be married then? So why are people complaining about celibate priests? If you want a married priest, go to another rite that has them. Is that a good argument for people?

Yes, if you either want to be a married priest or want your priests to be married, go to an Eastern Catholic Church that ordains married priests. And if you want to be sure your priests are celibate, avoid Latin Rite parishes that have married priests who came into the Church under the Pastoral Provision (such as mine).

“Rite” and “Church” are not (always) equivalent.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

“In some cases a Rite is completely coincident with a Church. For example, the Maronite Church with its Patriarch has a Rite not found in any other Church. In other cases, such as the Byzantine Rite, several Churches use the same or a very similar liturgical Rite. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church uses the Byzantine Rite, but this Rite is also found in other Catholic Churches, as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches not in union with Rome.”

Three Eastern Catholic Churches that have decided to adopt mandatory clerical celibacy, as in the Latin Church are the India-based Syro-Malankara Catholic Church and Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, and the Ethiopian Catholic Church.

These Eastern Catholic Churches – whether they have married or celibate clergy – are all under the umbrella of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, their ultimate authority is the Pope.

Jim Dandy

 

[DevotedChild]

Unity in diversity. I don’t like the “plural churches” language either, and in my ideal Church (which does not exist) there would be one local church on the ground which everyone in that neighborhood would attend, period. But a plurality of rites and traditions has always existed in the Church and is an expression of the Church’s Catholicity (universality).

Universality and unity are not about uniformity.

Edwin

So, your saying that there are different churches because there are different traditions from among the faithful due to being in different cultures/in different countries? If that is so, then that makes a lot more sense. Its like the different types of orders but in a more cultural sense. Ok, I think I get it now. Thanks for explaining that to me.

That still doesn’t answer the question about the priests though. hummmm… I would think it hard for a married man to be a priest and serve the Church, God, and all of his children that come to him and still have the responsibilities as a husband and father. I think that is why in the it is limited in some of the different churches. If a man is capable to serve God as his priest and be a married man too, the more to him. I guess it would also give him some insight on some things that the parishioners may ask that priest who are unmarried won’t, like marriage problems and how to raise children, i guess. I guess it all depends on how you look at it.

 

[Brendan]

sorry but I didn’t understand this.

The Apostles went out and preached, converted and ordained men as bishops. Those men were responsible for the priests and parishes within their environemtn. They all were faithful to the See of Peter, but established their own structures and there was variation in language and practice.

The Coptic Church, for example was founded by St. Mark. The Chruches of Antioch (Maronite) and Rome were founded by Peter, St. Thomas went east and founded the Chaldean and Syro-Malabar Church. St Andrew founded what we now call the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Some of the Eastern Orthodox reunitied with Rome in 1595. Those clergy and faithful became what we now call the Byzantine Churches.

The Chaldeans ( the majority of the Christians in Iraq) were seperated due to the growth of Islam, and fell to the Nestorian heresy; but reunited with Rome in the 1800’s.

In all, there are 22 distict Churches that make up the Catholic Church.

If you have difficulty understanding this, you should probably go to your pastor.

BTW, those documents I referenced are Vatican documents that discuss the Eastern Churches. Did you read them? "Oriental’ is Latin for “Eastern” BTW

I don’t understand that either. How can that be? Why are they made in the first place? I just don’t understand it.

Ask the Apostles, they were the ones that did it

Fine! Their priests. But it just seems to me that they can be full priests unless they are unmarried. ?

Define what you consider to be a ‘fully priest’ and what if the Church differed from your opinion?

 

[DevotedChild]

Yes, if you either want to be a married priest or want your priests to be married, go to an Eastern Catholic Church that ordains married priests. And if you want to be sure your priests are celibate, avoid Latin Rite parishes that have married priests who came into the Church under the Pastoral Provision (such as mine).

“Rite” and “Church” are not (always) equivalent.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

“In some cases a Rite is completely coincident with a Church. For example, the Maronite Church with its Patriarch has a Rite not found in any other Church. In other cases, such as the Byzantine Rite, several Churches use the same or a very similar liturgical Rite. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church uses the Byzantine Rite, but this Rite is also found in other Catholic Churches, as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches not in union with Rome.”

Three Eastern Catholic Churches that have decided to adopt mandatory clerical celibacy, as in the Latin Church are the India-based Syro-Malankara Catholic Church and Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, and the Ethiopian Catholic Church.

These Eastern Catholic Churches – whether they have married or celibate clergy – are all under the umbrella of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, their ultimate authority is the Pope.

Jim Dandy

ok. That makes more sense. Thank for explaining.

Sorry if it seemed that I was mad at you or anything. I was frustrated and was defending what I knew, not knowing that there was anything else different out there. I have never really heard of them before from reading about the saints, and stuff. It is just so different from what I am used to.

and sorry if i was being particular about the sources you gave me. from school I gained a mistrust for wikipedia from my teachers and being an american (and i know the british have this to) having the freedom of the press kind of dampens my trust in finding truth in newspapers. I found the articles that you were talking about on the Vaitican webpage I just couldn’t read it because of the strong vocab they were using, I couldn’t understand it.

sorry to seem like a grouch.

 

[formerlysure]

I feel that the Jesuit order is somewhat elitist. They seem to have their own regulations and never get too tied down to societal or diocesan duties or requirements. A bundle of globetrotters the lot of them. What a cushy life they lead. What is overly irritating is their sometimes pompous and patronising sermons almost demonising us to be plebs and docile imbeciles. I know of some genuinely good and inspirational and humble Jesuit priests but in general they are too elitist.

MitchBeck

Wow. I’m not a Jesuit nor a priest but I’m pretty offended by this, I must say. What a blanket statement about a really committed and hard working group of men. Wow!

I am a very proud graduate of Marquette University where I had the great honor of being the student of many devoted, very hard working Jesuit priests. I found them approachable, compassionate and very available to students. I further found them committed not only to the priesthood, but also to education. Not only were they scholars of Catholicism but also of their personal areas of expertise in which most, in addition to holding doctoral degrees in divinity, also held PhDs in those areas of specialty. I never found any of them to be pompous nor to talk above the heads of students, though they certainly were adequately educated that they could have talked circles around the lot of us.

It was not unusual for a priest to sit with a group of students at the library or student union, or to join us for a meal to talk about class, social issues, or our faith in a very respectful and appropriate yet comfortable manner.

When I was faced with health problems, a priest visited me at my dorm to offer how he could help. When my cousin and his friends returned from a break to find their apartment building had burned to the ground, the Jesuits on campus took it upon themselves to find a way to house the many students impacted, even though the students lived off campus and they had no responsibility whatsoever to assist.

I cannot speak for every Jesuit but can speak for my experiences with a great many, and all those experiences were entirely positive.

 

[DevotedChild]

The Apostles went out and preached, converted and ordained men as bishops. Those men were responsible for the priests and parishes within their environemtn. They all were faithful to the See of Peter, but established their own structures and there was variation in language and practice.

The Coptic Church, for example was founded by St. Mark. The Chruches of Antioch (Maronite) and Rome were founded by Peter, St. Thomas went east and founded the Chaldean and Syro-Malabar Church. St Andrew founded what we now call the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Some of the Eastern Orthodox reunitied with Rome in 1595. Those clergy and faithful became what we now call the Byzantine Churches.

The Chaldeans ( the majority of the Christians in Iraq) were seperated due to the growth of Islam, and fell to the Nestorian heresy; but reunited with Rome in the 1800’s.

In all, there are 22 distict Churches that make up the Catholic Church.

If you have difficulty understanding this, you should probably go to your pastor.

BTW, those documents I referenced are documents that discuss the Eastern Churches. Did you read them? "Oriental’ is Latin for “Eastern” BTW

Ask the Apostles, they were the ones that did it

Define what you consider to be a ‘fully priest’ and what if the Church differed from your opinion?

ok. thanks for explaining. I was grouchy and defending what I knew. But I am only eighteen and I know very little of latin. I have only sung it and know the translation of a few words. I never had the chance to take it in school.

for what i meant by fully priest at that, for one I was grouchy and got in a bad mood because all the info that you guys have been giving me where different from what I knew and believed, to what I was accostmed to. I was defending what I knew and was familiar with. And what I meant was, a priest who could fully focus on Serving God and the Church without the distraction of having a family at the same time. They couldn’t give God celibacy. I understand now that has to more with tradition and culture and not any else I thought it was.Besides I have never heard of a married priest among the saints before, unless they were widowed.

will you get off my back now? (saying this in a kind way) I am calmer now than what I was earlier.

 

[DevotedChild]

Wow. I’m not a Jesuit nor a priest but I’m pretty offended by this, I must say. What a blanket statement about a really committed and hard working group of men. Wow!

I am a very proud graduate of Marquette University where I had the great honor of being the student of many devoted, very hard working Jesuit priests. I found them approachable, compassionate and very available to students. I further found them committed not only to the priesthood, but also to education. Not only were they scholars of Catholicism but also of their personal areas of expertise in which most, in addition to holding doctoral degrees in divinity, also held PhDs in those areas of specialty. I never found any of them to be pompous nor to talk above the heads of students, though they certainly were adequately educated that they could have talked circles around the lot of us.

It was not unusual for a priest to sit with a group of students at the library or student union, or to join us for a meal to talk about class, social issues, or our faith in a very respectful and appropriate yet comfortable manner.

When I was faced with health problems, a priest visited me at my dorm to offer how he could help. When my cousin and his friends returned from a break to find their apartment building had burned to the ground, the Jesuits on campus took it upon themselves to find a way to house the many students impacted, even though the students lived off campus and they had no responsibility whatsoever to assist.

I cannot speak for every Jesuit but can speak for my experiences with a great many, and all those experiences were entirely positive.

they sound like sweet and kind people. I wonder if any of them are trained in exorcism. I have heard that they used to but from what I heard they are not training people to do that anymore.

 

[DevotedChild]

BTW, those documents I referenced are documents that discuss the Eastern Churches. Did you read them? "Oriental’ is Latin for “Eastern” BTW

I read them but I couldn’t understand them very well. There were too many words I didn’t understand. that is part of the reason why I said I didn’t understand. Like I said. I am not schooled in Latin. I came from a public high school that only offered French and Spanish when I first enrolled. Other schools had more languages because they did not have some of the other electives that my school had but because my school had so many elective classes and so much space and available teachers, we only had a few languages. Before I graduated the only languages they had were French, Spanish, German, and Japanese.

 

[formerlysure]

I have long wanted the Church to make celibacy optional, particularly for parish priests and others outside of monastic communities, and in support thereof, I offer the same old arguments that countless others make.

I do not like that priests converting from other faiths, who are married with children, can join the church and continue to have children as Catholic priests, whereas a life-long Catholic cannot make a post-marriage decision to become a priest. There was a man who posted on this site not long ago who had a child out of wedlock, was taking full responsibility for that child, regretted that he had been sinful in conceiving that child, yet wished to become a priest. He cannot. I have also heard of widowed Catholic men who were not permitted to be ordained as priests, though they were offered the option of being deacons. There is certainly an unfairness about it.

I respect greatly that the priests I know and have discussed this with have told me they would be celibate even if permitted to marry. Then again, if marriage is offered to priests in the future, it likely would follow the same rules as for the Eastern rite now - they would have to marry first - I have to wonder if they take this stance knowing that they must live with the status quo.

What I find most consistently troubling on this issue is this idea that priests work harder than other men - I do not believe this generally to be the case. Priest are busy, but no moreso than the other men I know. In many cases, they have considerably more flexibility in their time and generally work at home. Also, much of their work could reasonably include their families, as is the case in all other faiths. There is also this idea of family as a burden. Catholic families are taught that their marriage and children are blessings, but the very priests who teach this lesson are taught to view a wife and children as a burden and distraction. Which is it? I do not believe that a priest is under greater personal demand than an active duty marine, and over the road truck driver, a surgeon on call, an architect or attorney who struggles with deadlines, or a teacher who brings papers home in the evening, and coaches a school team to improve the family income.

I hope the church will change but I kind of think this is a situation where the decision is left to celibate men who are unlikely to offer to the new guys that which they were themselves denied.

 

[Brendan]

will you get off my back now? (saying this in a kind way) I am calmer now than what I was earlier.

No prob ( consider me off your back now )

What I would still recommend is to discuss the concept of the Eastern Churches with your pastor. This medium makes for short, choppy disucssion and a lot of positive emotions really don’t come across.

Some of us, especially those in PA , OHor MI, have lots of experience with the Eastern Churches. PA and OH have a substantial presence of the several Byzantine Catholic Churches. While Detroit, where I live, has a large presence of Maronite and Chaldean Catholics.

I have two Chaldean parishes within 5 miles of my house, and will take my kids there. Their Mass ( called a Holy Quaram) is done in Aramic, the same langage that Jesus spoke. There is also a Rutherian Catholic Church not far either, and I will take my kids there.

You are in Iowa, which does not seem to have a single Eastern Catholic parish in the whole state , so we fully understand if you have little experience with them.

Go talk you your pastor; you have brought up some really intellegent questions that I sure he’ll be glad to answer