Priestly Society of St. Josaphat

[Hesychios]

This must be where the conflict is, the CCEO canons show the obligation and rights with regard to the liturgy and private devotions, but the common good is most important, and to preserve one’s own rite.

I found the following most interesting …

CCEO Canon 403

1. With due regard for the right and obligation to preserve everywhere their own rite, lay persons have the right to participate actively in the liturgical celebrations of any Church sui iuris whatsoever, according to the norms of the liturgical books.

In other words (as I take this), If one wants to attend or assist in the liturgy of a Latin rite parish, one is expected to follow the norms of that church. If one wants to attend or assist in the liturgy of a Byzantine-Slavonic rite parish, one must follow the norms for liturgy of that rite.

There is to be no admixture of rites. This is a principle hundreds of years old (and reitereated publicly by several Popes), even if it has not always been faithfully adhered to. If Father K insists on independently diverging from the approved liturgical norms for his church Sui Iuris he is can be disciplined.

Private devotions are a different matter.

If I might add, however, devotional practices (public and private) erupt out of the community as an expression of the native spirituality of the tradition, these devotions are informed by the spirituality from which they spring. For people of other traditions to appreciate them, they may have to absorb some of the spirituality too. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, and it is not specifically forbidden at present, but it could conceivably undermine a small church’s efforts to survive intact into the future.

 

[Seamus_L]

Father Kovpak has been disciplined. He was excomminicated in 2007.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

There’s nothing “wrong” with names like Immaculate Conception and Our Lady of Fatima. However, both the teaching of the Immaculate Conception and Marian apparitions come out of the Western tradition of the Church (nothing wrong with that either), and many of us Eastern Christians believe that it is preferable for our parishes to have names that come out of our tradition.

Forgive my lack of knowledge in these matters but it is my understanding that infalliable and dogmatic beliefs such as the Immaculate Conception do not stem from any individual rites (all of which are authentically Catholic) but rather from the Holy Ghost guiding the Catholic Church as a whole. Personally I find the idea of “Latinization” abhorent and I love the traditions of my Eastern brethren.

 

[Cecilianus]

Father Kovpak has been disciplined. He was excomminicated in 2007.

My understanding is that his excommunication was revoked by the Vatican at the same time that the excommunications on the SSPX were lifted, however (which is not to say that he shouldn’t necessarily be disciplined - just that he happened to fall under the Church’s mercy as part of Her effort to bring back the Lefebvrites).

 

[Cecilianus]

Forgive my lack of knowledge in these matters but it is my understanding that infalliable and dogmatic beliefs such as the Immaculate Conception do not stem from any individual rites (all of which are authentically Catholic) but rather from the Holy Ghost guiding the Catholic Church as a whole. Personally I find the idea of “Latinization” abhorent and I love the traditions of my Eastern brethren.

Right; however there may be terminology or ways of expressing it more naturally in line with the Eastern way of thinking. For example, the actual feasts in the East are called the Maternity of St. Anne and the Dormition, and churches in both the West and the East are named after feasts, not dogmas. Also, the Eastern way of understanding the doctrine of original sin is different (and this doesn’t necessarily mean it’s heretical - we should be able to express the same doctrines in two different ways without watering them down, though the effort of mutual understanding is not always easy between West and East), and developing Byzantine theology in its own “genius” without simply using the Latin sheds light on the issues in mutually complementary ways.

And yes, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is a Catholic, not a Western dogma, and it is binding on all. But there can still be a Western and an Eastern perspective on original sin/ the ancestral sin which shed light on each other, provided we are actually expressing the same dogma as each other (as I hope) rather than just committing some kind of Pelagian or semi-Pelagian heresy.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Right; however there may be terminology or ways of expressing it more naturally in line with the Eastern way of thinking. For example, the actual feasts in the East are called the Maternity of St. Anne and the Dormition, and churches in both the West and the East are named after feasts, not dogmas. Also, the Eastern way of understanding the doctrine of original sin is different (and this doesn’t necessarily mean it’s heretical - we should be able to express the same doctrines in two different ways without watering them down, though the effort of mutual understanding is not always easy between West and East), and developing Byzantine theology in its own “genius” without simply using the Latin sheds light on the issues in mutually complementary ways.

And yes, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is a Catholic, not a Western dogma, and it is binding on all. But there can still be a Western and an Eastern perspective on original sin/ the ancestral sin which shed light on each other, provided we are actually expressing the same dogma as each other (as I hope) rather than just committing some kind of Pelagian or semi-Pelagian heresy.

Ok, I see what you mean believing the same dogmas, just expressing those dogmas (which are the same for all rites) in ways unique to our rites. So what is the Eastern understanding of original sin?

 

[RyanBlack]

Forgive my lack of knowledge in these matters but it is my understanding that infalliable and dogmatic beliefs such as the Immaculate Conception do not stem from any individual rites (all of which are authentically Catholic) but rather from the Holy Ghost guiding the Catholic Church as a whole. Personally I find the idea of “Latinization” abhorent and I love the traditions of my Eastern brethren.

The status of the Immaculate Conception as dogma comes not from the decree of a universal council of the Church, but from the proclamation of a Bishop of Rome. Due to this, and to the history of how the issue of the sinlessness of the Theotokos has been dealt with among the Orthodox, I maintain my assertion that it comes out of the Western tradition. Of course, if a teaching is true, it is true, regardless of the tradition with which it is most closely associated.

 

[Seamus_L]

Cecilianus
Cardinal Husar excommunicated Father Kovpak in 2003, but the Vatican later declared the excommunication null and void for lack of canonical form. In Nov 2007, Father Kovpak was excommunicated by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. As far as I know that's the his current status.

 

[Cecilianus]

Ok, I see what you mean believing the same dogmas, just expressing those dogmas (which are the same for all rites) in ways unique to our rites. So what is the Eastern understanding of original sin?

Somebody else could answer you better - and the way it’s often formulated by the Orthodox is not necessarily compatible with Catholicism, though perhaps not as incompatible as they may want to claim - but basically it tries to be more ontological than “juridical”. Instead of speaking of us as having inherited the guilt of Adam, which is perceived (correctly or otherwise) to be the Western view, or as being a “sin” that we inherit and therefore must be punished for, the Eastern view of original sin regards the effect of Adam’s sin as being death. (Whether this is spiritual death - separation from divine life - or physical death is usually not specified by Orthodox writers, following St. Gregory of Nyssa’s quasi-angelistic idea of physical corruptibility being the result of the Fall.) Because separation from divine life is regarded from an ontological point of view rather than a legal status, the argument is made that in order to be spared this Mary would have to be separated out from the rest of humanity to such a degree that she would be unable to transmit humanity to her Son so that those who are suffering from the ancestral sin could be redeemed by Him. Therefore, it is said that the Theotokos is subject to Original Sin - which to the Orthodox mind is the same as saying that she is subject to death and temptation.

The Latin view holds that there was no need for Mary to die before her Assumption, but that she probably chose to in order to unite herself to her Son. The Eastern view holds that Mary did need to die in order to be fully human (the way humanity has existed after the Fall), but that because she was absolutely spotless and without any trace of sin (something held to by all Orthodox theologians, and proclaimed in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom) her passing was painless and peaceful.

In order to make her sinless without introducing a disjunction between her nature and that of the rest of humanity, St. Gregory Palamas spoke of a “progressive gracing” or sanctification of all of her ancestors, culminating in her.

This is discussed in more depth by people who understand it better than I in this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=518620

 

[Cecilianus]

Cecilianus

                                   Cardinal Husar excommunicated Father Kovpak in 2003, but the Vatican later declared the excommunication null and void for lack of canonical form. In Nov 2007, Father Kovpak was excommunicated by the Congregation for the Doctrine of  the Faith. As far as I know that's the his current status.

Thanks!

 

[Hesychios]

Cecilianus

                                   Cardinal Husar excommunicated Father Kovpak in 2003, but the Vatican later declared the excommunication null and void for lack of canonical form.

So the Pope intervened on behalf of father Kovpak and later excommunicated him?

In Nov 2007, Father Kovpak was excommunicated by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. As far as I know that’s the his current status.

 

[Seamus_L]

Hesychios
I think you could say it's an example of the Vatican still demonstrating that it's authority supercedes that of a bishop. I imagine their are people happy that Fr Kovpak has been excommunicated, but unhappy with the way that it was done.

 

[Vico]

…
one is expected to follow the norms of that church. …
There is to be no admixture of rites. …
Private devotions are a different matter…
they may have to absorb some of the spirituality too. …
but it could conceivably undermine a small church’s efforts to survive intact into the future.

That seems to be accurate, and there may be organic change.

The hierarchs are to protect the rite, allowing for organic progress but tempered by mutual goodwill, and the clerics are to observe it (rather than modify it). And the faithful have a rights which may be regulated by the church (See Canon 26).

Which is seen in what I left out from CCEO Canon 40, parts 1 & 2:

1. Hierarchs who preside over Churches sui iuris and all other hierarchs are to see most carefully to the faithful protection and accurate observance of their own rite, and not admit changes in it except by reason of its organic progress, keeping in mind, however, mutual goodwill and the unity of Christians.
2. Other clerics and members of institutes of consecrated life are bound to observe their own rite faithfully and daily to acquire a greater understanding and a more perfect practice of it.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

The problem never has been private devotions, Alex. It’s the public devotions that are regulated by the Bishops.

Private devotions, however, are still a problem when they focus, like certain Roman ones, on elements of theologumenia alien to the East. They’re outside the bishop’s purview, but not one’s pastor nor spiritual father.

I’m not denying what you are saying. But bishops, at least in my Church, have little to say when entire parishes want the Sacred Heart devotion as happened at my old parish. That parish has a heavy membership of Eastern Catholics from Poland and there it is unthinkable for any Catholic (even for many Orthodox parishes there) not to have the Sacred Heart devotion.

I met a village priest from there who has 24 hour Eucharistic adoration in his church, the rosary etc. Even small school-children have their daily hour in church.

I, for one, have no intention to oppose that.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Hesychios

                                I think you could say it's an example of the Vatican still demonstrating that it's authority supercedes that of a bishop. I imagine their are people happy that Fr Kovpak has been excommunicated, but unhappy with the way that it was done.

I know Fr. Kovpak’s situation very well and his problem is that he is just openly defiant and disobedient to his Primate. The only people unhappy with the way Kovpak was treated are those who support him.

That wouldn’t be tolerated in the Roman Catholic Church and it isn’t tolerated in ours.

If he wants to be a Roman Catholic, he should just go over. The Transalpine Redemptorists cling to a vision of church unity that is old hat and they appear to know better than even Rome.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Right; however there may be terminology or ways of expressing it more naturally in line with the Eastern way of thinking. For example, the actual feasts in the East are called the Maternity of St. Anne and the Dormition, and churches in both the West and the East are named after feasts, not dogmas. Also, the Eastern way of understanding the doctrine of original sin is different (and this doesn’t necessarily mean it’s heretical - we should be able to express the same doctrines in two different ways without watering them down, though the effort of mutual understanding is not always easy between West and East), and developing Byzantine theology in its own “genius” without simply using the Latin sheds light on the issues in mutually complementary ways.

And yes, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is a Catholic, not a Western dogma, and it is binding on all. But there can still be a Western and an Eastern perspective on original sin/ the ancestral sin which shed light on each other, provided we are actually expressing the same dogma as each other (as I hope) rather than just committing some kind of Pelagian or semi-Pelagian heresy.

Excellent point!

I can see an exchange between a Roman Catholic and an Eastern Catholic:

Roman Catholic: In the 19th century, the Pope proclaimed that the Virgin Mary was, from the moment of her Conception, preserved free of the stain of Original Sin.

Eastern Catholic: We have always believed that Mary was totally sinless and immaculate - how could it be otherwise?

Alex

 

[Seamus_L]

Alex
My point was that I believe some people are of the opinion that Cardinal Husar's excommunication of Father Kovpak should have been final. It was not.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Alex

                                My point was that I believe some people are of the opinion that Cardinal Husar's excommunication of Father Kovpak should have been final. It was not.

Oh! Well then I agree with you!

Patriarch Lubomyr Cardinal Husar is a great fellow, you know! My wife is related to him!

Happy St Lucy’s Day!

Alex

 

[Albrecht]

I don’t see why Eastern Catholic Churches can’t have stations of the cross or can’t offer adoration of the Eucharist, as long as the rites are respected.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I don’t see why Eastern Catholic Churches can’t have stations of the cross or can’t offer adoration of the Eucharist, as long as the rites are respected.

The issue is that these devotions usually replace authentic Eastern devotions and Liturgy.

Also, adoration of the Eucharist is really foreign to us Byzantines as we us leavened bread and a monstrance only takes an unleavened host.

Also your comment would be like me coming into a Roman Church and saying I do not see why we can’t replace the Rosary before Mass with the Byzantine office of Matins, how do you think that would be taken?