Priestly Society of St. Josaphat

[Alexander_Roman]

I don’t see why Eastern Catholic Churches can’t have stations of the cross or can’t offer adoration of the Eucharist, as long as the rites are respected.

Actually, not only do Eastern Catholic parishes have stations of the Cross and Eucharistic Adoration - Orthodox parishes in Eastern Europe will have these as well.

I have two liturgical versions of the stations of the Cross published bythe Orthodox (in conjunction with the “Passia” service held during Lent). The liturgical framework in which these are cast are very Eastern and well done.

I’ve no problem with them, although there would be other EC’s who would!

Alex

 

[Cecilianus]

The issue is that these devotions usually replace authentic Eastern devotions and Liturgy.

Also, adoration of the Eucharist is really foreign to us Byzantines as we us leavened bread and a monstrance only takes an unleavened host.

Also your comment would be like me coming into a Roman Church and saying I do not see why we can’t replace the Rosary before Mass with the Byzantine office of Matins, how do you think that would be taken?

Since traditional Roman Catholic churches do or used to offer Matins before Mass, probably an even better example would be for us to barge into a Roman church and insist that the Rosary before Mass be replaced with an Akathist or a moleben. At which the Romans would ask, “A what?”

There really is a pervasive attitude whereby Roman Catholic devotions such as the stations of the Cross or the Rosary are viewed as simply “Catholic” devotions which any good Catholic ought to practice East or West, and which opposition to is thought of as suspicious, while it would NEVER occur to a Roman Catholic to practice Eastern Catholic devotions such as the Akathist or moleben. Most Roman Catholics have never even heard of them (and a depressing large number for that matter have never even heard of Eastern Catholicism).

 

[Seamus_L]

The point that most people here seem to keep missing is that Roman Catholics aren’t barging into anyones church and forcing people to accept there devotions. With greater availability of the TLM, those people you’re concerned about are too busy with there involvement in parishes offering the Latin Mass to participate in introducing Latin devotions (if they even could) to Eastern Catholic churches.
The people who want to hang on to the rosary, stations of the cross, etc in Eastern Catholic Churches are generally speaking, cradle EC's. Whatever your opinions of the SSJ are, I think you'll have a hard time proving that it's anything other than an organic movement.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

The point that most people here seem to keep missing is that Roman Catholics aren’t barging into anyones church and forcing people to accept there devotions. With greater availability of the TLM, those people you’re concerned about are too busy with there involvement in parishes offering the Latin Mass to participate in introducing Latin devotions (if they even could) to Eastern Catholic churches.

                             The people who want to hang on to the rosary, stations of the cross, etc in Eastern Catholic Churches are generally speaking, cradle EC's.  Whatever your opinions of the SSJ are, I think you'll have a hard time proving that it's anything other than an organic movement.

That is very true!

Alex

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The point that most people here seem to keep missing is that Roman Catholics aren’t barging into anyones church and forcing people to accept there devotions. With greater availability of the TLM, those people you’re concerned about are too busy with there involvement in parishes offering the Latin Mass to participate in introducing Latin devotions (if they even could) to Eastern Catholic churches.

Yet every Byzantine parish I go to has such Latin Catholics attending. My current one has a family plus a couple of other members who insist on kneeling during the consecration.

The people who want to hang on to the rosary, stations of the cross, etc in Eastern Catholic Churches are generally speaking, cradle EC’s. Whatever your opinions of the SSJ are, I think you’ll have a hard time proving that it’s anything other than an organic movement.

Organic movements within the Church do not lead to disobedience and excommunications.

 

[Vico]

Since traditional Roman Catholic churches do or used to offer Matins before Mass, probably an even better example would be for us to barge into a Roman church and insist that the Rosary before Mass be replaced with an Akathist or a moleben. At which the Romans would ask, “A what?”

There really is a pervasive attitude whereby Roman Catholic devotions such as the stations of the Cross or the Rosary are viewed as simply “Catholic” devotions which any good Catholic ought to practice East or West, and which opposition to is thought of as suspicious, while it would NEVER occur to a Roman Catholic to practice Eastern Catholic devotions such as the Akathist or moleben. Most Roman Catholics have never even heard of them (and a depressing large number for that matter have never even heard of Eastern Catholicism).

I have noticed an attitude of suspicion also. Here is something interesting from the fourth edition of the Enchiridion Indulgentarium (Manual of Indulgences USCCB 2005). Latin Catholics encouraged to do eastern prayers and all Catholics granted indulgences for these.

See 23 Preces Orientalium Ecclesiarum, if you can read Latin, or see my rough translation below.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/t...c_20020826_enchiridion-indulgentiarum_lt.html

23
Prayers of the churches of the East

Catholicity of the church by nature ensures that, “each individual part or the Church contributes through its special gifts to the good of the whold Church, so that the whole and each part increase” (Lumen Gentium No. 13) in regard to all the spiritual gifts of Divine generosity: from thence the prayers from the various traditions of the East have spread, even among the faithful of the Latin rite, especially in recent years, and with considerable advantage to religious piety, whether public or private use.

§ 1 A Plenary Indulgence is granted to the Christian faithful who sing (devoutly recite) the Akathistos hymn or the Office of the Paraclesis in the church or the oratory, and / or in the family, in religious communities and in the associations of the faithful and in general, when several of the faithful are gather to some honorable purpose. In other cases, the indulgence will be partial.

But in regard to Akathistos, when we sing the hymn for a plenary indulgence to be acquired, it is not required that the recitation be entire, but it is sufficient that continuous recitation is done of an appropriate part according to lawful decrees of custom.

Among the Christian faithful of the East, where the practice of these devotions does not exist, other similar exercises in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary, according to the statutes established by the patriarchs, enjoy the same indulgences.

§ 2. The Partial Indulgence is granted to the faithful who, for the time and occasion of some prayer recite devoutly one from the following: A Prayer for the giving of thanks (from a tradition of the Armenians); an evening in Prayer, Prayer for the dead (from the Byzantine Tradition); Prayer of the sanctuary, Prayer «Lakhu Mara," or the «To thee, O Lord" (from a tradition of the Chaldeans); Prayer to the incense, glorified at Prayer to the Mother of God Mary (from the Coptic Tradition); A Prayer for the remission of sins, A Prayer for the acquiring the following of Christ (from a tradition of Amharic); A Prayer for the Church, he has completed the Prayer Liturgy of the (from the Maronite Tradition); Intercessions for the dead from the Liturgy of the S. James, (from a tradition of the Syrian-Antioch).

 

[Cecilianus]

I have noticed an attitude of suspicion also. Here is something interesting from the fourth edition of the Enchiridion Indulgentarium (Manual of Indulgences USCCB 2005). Latin Catholics encouraged to do eastern prayers and all Catholics granted indulgences for these.

See 23 Preces Orientalium Ecclesiarum, if you can read Latin, or see my rough translation below.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/t...c_20020826_enchiridion-indulgentiarum_lt.html

23
Prayers of the churches of the East

Catholicity of the church by nature ensures that, “each individual part or the Church contributes through its special gifts to the good of the whold Church, so that the whole and each part increase” (Lumen Gentium No. 13) in regard to all the spiritual gifts of Divine generosity: from thence the prayers from the various traditions of the East have spread, even among the faithful of the Latin rite, especially in recent years, and with considerable advantage to religious piety, whether public or private use.

§ 1 A Plenary Indulgence is granted to the Christian faithful who sing (devoutly recite) the Akathistos hymn or the Office of the Paraclesis in the church or the oratory, and / or in the family, in religious communities and in the associations of the faithful and in general, when several of the faithful are gather to some honorable purpose. In other cases, the indulgence will be partial.

But in regard to Akathistos, when we sing the hymn for a plenary indulgence to be acquired, it is not required that the recitation be entire, but it is sufficient that continuous recitation is done of an appropriate part according to lawful decrees of custom.

Among the Christian faithful of the East, where the practice of these devotions does not exist, other similar exercises in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary, according to the statutes established by the patriarchs, enjoy the same indulgences.

§ 2. The Partial Indulgence is granted to the faithful who, for the time and occasion of some prayer recite devoutly one from the following: A Prayer for the giving of thanks (from a tradition of the Armenians); an evening in Prayer, Prayer for the dead (from the Byzantine Tradition); Prayer of the sanctuary, Prayer «Lakhu Mara," or the «To thee, O Lord" (from a tradition of the Chaldeans); Prayer to the incense, glorified at Prayer to the Mother of God Mary (from the Coptic Tradition); A Prayer for the remission of sins, A Prayer for the acquiring the following of Christ (from a tradition of Amharic); A Prayer for the Church, he has completed the Prayer Liturgy of the (from the Maronite Tradition); Intercessions for the dead from the Liturgy of the S. James, (from a tradition of the Syrian-Antioch).

Wonderful! Somehow I had read someplace that the indulgence for an Akathist was only 25 days. Glad to be wrong!

 

[Vico]

Wonderful! Somehow I had read someplace that the indulgence for an Akathist was only 25 days. Glad to be wrong!

The old system of assigning days is gone, it was abolished in 1967. The purificatory benefit for a partial indulgence is since 1967 proportional to the perfection of the pious act in both exterior and interior elements (such as degree of charity), which the Church doubles. From Chapter 5 Indulgentarium Doctrina:
Regarding partial indulgences, with the abolishment of the former determination of days and years, a new norm or measurement has been established which takes into consideration the action itself of the faithful Christian who performs a work to which an indulgence is attached.

Since by their acts the faithful can obtain, in addition to the merit which is the principal fruit of the act, a further remission of temporal punishment in proportion to the degree to which the charity of the one performing the act is greater, and in proportion to the degree to which the act itself is performed in a more perfect way, it has been considered fitting that this remission of temporal punishment which the Christian faithful acquire through an action should serve as the measurement for the remission of punishment which the ecclesiastical authority bountifully adds by way of partial indulgence.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html
But some Eastern Catholics may not be used to the idea of a plenary indulgence, as that term may not be part of their tradition. There are conditions that must be fulfulled besides the pious act itself, to obtain the indulgence for oneself or for the faithfully departed.

Even a partial indulgence has additional requirements to be in the state of grace (free from serious sin that has not been confessed and forgiven in the Mystery of Penance) with the intention of gaining the indulgence.

 

[Albrecht]

The issue is that these devotions usually replace authentic Eastern devotions and Liturgy.

Also, adoration of the Eucharist is really foreign to us Byzantines as we us leavened bread and a monstrance only takes an unleavened host.

Also your comment would be like me coming into a Roman Church and saying I do not see why we can’t replace the Rosary before Mass with the Byzantine office of Matins, how do you think that would be taken?

They don’t have to replace authentic Eastern devotions. A seperate service of adoration can always be celebrated, with a special monstrance perhaps.

I think it would be better to pray the Matins in the Western rite version. But it’s all just rites, we are one Church. The Adoration of the Eucharist can always be celebrated without losing the Matins and the Byzantine Liturgy.

 

[Seamus_L]

Eucharistic Adoration wasen’t foreign to Byzantine Rite Bishop Blessed Paul Gojdich carpatho-rusyn.org/spirit/gojdich.htm

 

[Alexander_Roman]

They don’t have to replace authentic Eastern devotions. A seperate service of adoration can always be celebrated, with a special monstrance perhaps.

I think it would be better to pray the Matins in the Western rite version. But it’s all just rites, we are one Church. The Adoration of the Eucharist can always be celebrated without losing the Matins and the Byzantine Liturgy.

Certainly, the existence of the monstrance in the Eastern Chuches is, in Eastern ritual terms, an anomaly. Its persistence in certain parishes is something that is simply a fact of life.

So when we talk about the Adoration of our Lord in the Eucharist in the East, we must recognize that such ALREADY EXISTS within the context of the Divine Liturgy. After Holy Communion, the priest actually blesses the people with the Chalice and then processes with the remainder of the Holy Gifts to the side altar.

The full rite of this involves the people who have communed and who wish this blessing, to stand to the side and as the priest processes with the Chalice, he touches their heads with it. It is a very solemn moment and does not exist in the Latin Rite.

The Latin Rite in post-Vatican II days attempted to restore Eucharistic worship within the context of the Mass itself and Holy Communion. The Eastern Churches already have this in place.

What the Eastern Catholic parishes need to expand on is catechesis on participation in the Divine Liturgy. The Offices before and after Holy Communion, fasting, the various movements during the Liturgy, and the solemn period of the Canon of the Liturgy and Holy Communion.

This is the penultimate experience of the Lord in the Most Holy Eucharist. The existence of the monstrance in an EC parish would indicate that such proper catechesis has yet to be done. I simply stated that it exists in certain parishes, period.

The monstrance and exposition of the Eucharist to the faithful is also completely not in accordance with Eastern spirituality in this respect. The East prefers to “cover up” the Mystery out of a tremendous sense of adoration and respect toward it. I cannot agree with this approach more. There is no need to expose the Holy Gifts in the way they are in a monstrance - at least in the East. It is more than sufficient to pray before our Lord on the Altar outside of the Divine Liturgy. But the Divine Liturgy is the context in which we truly meet and adore our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

As an aside, there is a section in the Euchologion of St Peter Mohyla the Metropolitan where he gives priests instructions on what they are to do in the event that, following the Consecration during the Liturgy, the Bread takes on the form of “true flesh” and the Wine “true Blood” or else a small child appears in the Chalice.

St Peter instructs the priests to understand that such a phenomenon is an expression of God’s righteous anger at a lack of faith by someone in the church at the time etc. The priest is to move the Chalice aside and cover it up - he is to check it periodically until the time for Communion has come. If the situation remains the same, since what is in the Chalice is not Communion but a miracle of the Lord, the priest is to take other bread and wine and consecrate them for purposes of Communion.

That passage in St Peter’s instructions is something I always recall before Communion and it serves as a truly sobering reflection!

Alex

 

[JW55]

It is a little unclear to me from what I have read online and through the contents of this thread, if the the Society is found in the U.S. or primarily eastern Europe. It appears to me that it is primarily in eastern Europe.

 

[Hesychios]

Actually, not only do Eastern Catholic parishes have stations of the Cross and Eucharistic Adoration - Orthodox parishes in Eastern Europe will have these as well.

Hi Alex,
Would you say that this practice among some Orthodox stems from their earlier historical participation in the Unia, or would it be a completely voluntary borrowing without reference to the Unia?

I am wondering how far east the practice has spread among Orthodox. Would you have some further information on the subject?

Thanks

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Hi Alex,
Would you say that this practice among some Orthodox stems from their earlier historical participation in the Unia, or would it be a completely voluntary borrowing without reference to the Unia?

I am wondering how far east the practice has spread among Orthodox. Would you have some further information on the subject?

Thanks

Hello sir!

It is probably both. There are Orthodox parishes in western Ukraine, formerly Greek-Catholic, which continued with their “Otpust” or what to me suggests the translation “indulgenced pilgrimage” (I could be totally wrong!).

There was a lot of borrowing from western Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries when Orthodox students went to study in Paris and Rome. At Florence, many Latin devotional texts were translated and published in Church Slavonic (including the 15 prayers of St Brigitte, the Little Office etc.).

It could also be that such devotions have become a practical “standard of Christianity” in certain areas so that if even the Orthodox parishes there didn’t have them, they would be ill-regarded .

The Passia service which, as we know, consists of the reading of the two Passion chapters in each of the four Gospels over four Sundays of Lent together with an Akathist to the Passion or another service, is immensely popular throughout Russia itself (and this service was created by St Peter Mohyla of Kyiv).

The Orthodox in Ukraine appear to really like the Stations of the Cross and I’ve two versions (one has 15 stations, including that of the Resurrection at the end, while the other has but 12 with scriptural readings). The latter service is conducted by procession during Lent, the Great Fast, with the carrying of a large Cross which the Priest will take at each stations and bless the faithful with it - I’ve not ever heard of such a ritual but it is very beautiful.

Certainly, the argument holds true that says people moving back and forth from the Orthodox and EC churches will bring their devotions with them.

In 1700, a new Unia was established in Eastern Europe with the result that the new Eastern Catholics were shocked at how Latinized those of the Union of 1596 had become.

St Alexis Toth of Wilkes-Barre, as a former EC and Basilian priest, was put in charge of EC’s becoming Orthodox. He treated them with the greatest of sensitivity and, for the most part, left their Latin-derived devotions alone. This didn’t do him any good with the Orthodox hierarchy who, for a long time, were suspicious of him (as they regarded the Basilians as “Eastern Jesuits” and somehow couldn’t accept that such a one would convert to Orthodoxy).

Alex

 

[Diak]

The underlying question is, does one accept the direction and guidance of the hierarchy or not? The clear and undeniable guidance of the UGCC hierarchy and the Magisterium is to specifically and explicitly move away from the more recent latinizations (regardless of internal or external origin) back to the authentic liturgical life of our Churches as expressed in the respective Unions.

This is happening especially in parishes of the “fourth wave” or newer immigrants who do not have any experience of these services in Ukraine. Even in Ukraine one finds “Supplikatsia” less and less frequently, and never in the more “vostochnik” parishes such as those manned by the Studites.

This service is no longer taught in Rudno in the primary UGCC seminary, and has not for some time. It is not present in the “Pilgrim’s Prayerboook” for the largest UGCC pilgrimage to the Mother of God of Zarvanytsia. As a deacon of the UGCC I have not had anyone even mention Supplykatsia in well over a decade, and even then usually as a reminiscence of Ukrainian Catholic school of the 1940s or 1950s.

The SSJ clings to these as much as signs of rebellion of the direction of the current UGCC hierarchy as misunderstood “symbols” of what they consider to be a concretized early 20th century latinized faith as anything else.

Those in the UGCC should be following the lead of the Patriarch and hierarchy, and not the example of schismatics led by a priest who had a long discliplinary history before starting the “SSJ”.

 

[Tradycja]

So was this Ukrainian SSPX priest’s excommunication lifted when Pope Benedict lifted the excommunication of the SSPX bishops?

 

[Cecilianus]

So was this Ukrainian SSPX priest’s excommunication lifted when Pope Benedict lifted the excommunication of the SSPX bishops?

Seamus says he wasn’t. I thought he had been, but I couldn’t find the article (online somewhere) where I read that.

 

[Formosus]

So was this Ukrainian SSPX priest’s excommunication lifted when Pope Benedict lifted the excommunication of the SSPX bishops?

I can not answer 100% positively, but I am almost certain that no. The SSPX Bishops’ excommunication was the only one lifted.

 

[Diak]

No. Fr. Kovpak’s excommunication has to be lifted by the Patriarch since Rome refused to hear his last petition after it was pronounced by the Synod.