Priests more into psychology than Jesus..

[DeusEratVerbum]

So uh…

Who says i have one of those???

oh yeah… you must be referring to the priest who knew me as well as God does after he heard 3 words come of out of my mouth…

Remember when YOU said that you had PTSD?

Take it from me, I used to think the exact way that you did - I’ll do it on my own - me and Jesus. But depression was ruining my life - it ruined my friendships, my schoolwork, my family life, but most of all, it actually hurt my relationship with God. Depression is an ILLNESS. When you are sick, you see a DOCTOR. I had to go to a few psychologists to find one who matched my values, and understood me. But now that my depression is being treated, I can actually have a functional spiritual life.

 

[snhs]

well, its an extreme to give anyone the advice to use drugs also… Who knows what all side effects those drugs have…

I’ll tell you who - God…

And if God wnated me to use meds… He would have put them in either my body or the food i eat…

& he does… because chocolate, for example, boosts seritonin levels which helps with mood… ditto coffee…

I don’t trust psych docotrs… or anyone else for that matter… I trust Jesus and ony Jesus…

So, by your logic, if God had wanted me to see clearly more than a metre ahead of me I’d have been born with glasses or they’d have popped out of an orifice the first time I required them?

Coffee also has caffeine in it, so obviously God wanted people who drink a lot of coffee not to sleep and to do overtime at work. But that wouldn’t work would it because someone has to grow the coffee, then manufacture it and put it in a packet before you can make it and drink it, unless of course God positioned a coffee plantation in your back garden.

Likewise with chocolate, after all why would we trust a multinational company, whose main aim is to make money, to provide sustenance for us?

You apparently trust the food manufacturers enough to buy their products, you apparently trust them enough to eat them. Or has God started doing product endorsements which tell you which brands to buy?

I’m not saying that it isn’t within Our Lord’s capabilities to do these things, but the fact remains that you have spoken about your problems with two Priests, who have almost certainly been called to that position by God. Both of them have suggested you seek help from a psychologist. God can and often does guide us through his Priests, there is a reason it’s the Priest that does the Homily and not just a random lay person.

And just to make this perfectly clear regarding your earlier comment:

“I was going to see a confessor today whom i thought would be good to talk to (even though he does seem to talk about psychology too much… so maybe he really isn’t the right oen for me to go to… but at least he listens…). But then i asked Jesus waht he wanted me to do… and i heard some words that i htoght came from him (made total sense tht he would want me to do what i heard i should do)… so i put off seeing the priest. I think that gettingg outside oneself, as you mention, is one of the best ways to get “better”.”

The Priest is not sitting in the Confessional to have a chat with you or anyone else, he’s there to hear your confession, give penance, possibly some guidance, and, normally, provide Sacramental Absolution that’s it. It varies vastly on how long a Priest may sit and ‘listen’ but that is not what they’re there for, if you want to talk to them then ask them to speak to you some other time, if you want it to be under the Seal of the Confessional then ask them that as well.

You should be aware that hearing voices or words in your head is not always a good thing, sometimes it may be Jesus others it may be the Devil and in some cases it will be mental problems or just your own thoughts. Those ‘words’ agreeing with what you think or what you might think makes sense for Our Lord to want you to do doesn’t rule out any of the above options. If these words are keeping you from the Sacrament of Reconciliation, which Jesus instituted that our sins might be forgiven, and if these words are keeping you from seeking out professional help when two of the ordained Priests of Our Lord’s Church have suggested you do so then it certainly doesn’t seem likely it’s the first option.

 

[Oakleaf]

Nurse, get this patient an exorcism! I kid, I kid.

In all seriousness: Drugs and medication can at best take a person part of the way (care of the brain/body), no doubt about it. There are Catholic psychological counselors who can help you with the “rest of the way” (care of the inner person) in keeping with your faith.

 

[EasterJoy]

well, its an extreme to give anyone the advice to use drugs also… Who knows what all side effects those drugs have…

I’ll tell you who - God…

And if God wnated me to use meds… He would have put them in either my body or the food i eat…

& he does… because chocolate, for example, boosts seritonin levels which helps with mood… ditto coffee…

I don’t trust psych docotrs… or anyone else for that matter… I trust Jesus and ony Jesus…

I’m not saying that nutrition, exercise and normal self-care shouldn’t be the first line in treatment of mood disorders. I’m saying that sometimes the body needs more than that.

Be very careful about “I trust Jesus and only Jesus”. It can mean “No one can take the place of the Lord in my life.” It can also mean “I do what* I* think best, but tell everybody it is God’s will.” This is a trap that we all fall into, I think. I’m not saying “don’t say that.” I’m saying just be careful, OK?

…In all seriousness: Drugs and medication can at best take a person part of the way (care of the brain/body), no doubt about it. There are Catholic psychological counselors who can help you with the “rest of the way” (care of the inner person) in keeping with your faith.

This cannot be stressed too much. Just as a hip or knee replacement will do no good for a patient who will not do the follow-up physical therapy, those who need medication for mental health issues usually also need the appropriate therapy for the treatment to be successful.

Also…they need to stay on the medication until their physician releases them. The number of “I don’t need this stuff anymore” tragedies are legion.

 

[strugglingalong]

But along with all of this talk of “the best thing you can do is take medication if you have a mental disorder” goes the idea that the belief of what makes a mental disorder varies greatly from psychiatrist to psychiatrist - and what is a problem that requires medication is debated. Most any discomfort or problem in our day is considered a “mental illness.”

A boy goes on a shooting spree. Answer? He had a mental disorder.

A man beats his wife. Answer? Mental disorder.

A woman cries a lot all day. Answer? Put her on medication.

It’s the biological medical model that is fueled by materialism, that human beings in fact do not have souls and in fact are only material. Therefore every problem can be solved biologically. Regardless of whether a counselor or psychiatrist is Catholic or not, this logic is what is taught and is put forward by most every influential practitioner in the mental health field.

I understand some people need medication and that they legitimately have a mental disorder but that diagnosis is very, very difficult. How do you know if it is biological? How do you know if it isn’t something the person needs to, and can, change about themselves? And remember, the soul and body are fused together so you cannot separate them, which means the soul can influence the bodies chemistry. A change in lifestyle, working at changing ones thoughts, etc. can all result in changes in biology.

All of that to say it is not at all as easy as, “Well if you think you have a mental illness you, under penalty of sin, need to be on medication.” The diagnosis of mental illness is very tentative and subjective in itself. And the medications given can cause other side effects that can deteriorate the body.

I do think most people - save those in extreme problems that cannot be worked through - can work through their problems with a spiritual director and/or an orthodox Catholic counselor. Most often in involves a change of mind, lifestyle and actions.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Father_JohnBerg]

OK. I didn’t even finish reading what you wrote because you seem very distracted. Therefore I must say a few things:

**1.) **The priest was right, you probably should have been taking some anti-stress drugs. Confession is one of the only places in the entire world where a person pours out all of their internal struggles. An example should describe this:

Say a man walks into confession and tells the priest “I am a terrorist and I’m planning to blow up a toddlers day care centre in a few days.” What should the priest do? Should he say very calmly (along the lines of what you are suggesting), “My son, you are sure to suffer in Hell for this.” Or should he say, “You must go turn yourself in to the police now! Do it while there is time! Tell me what you just told me outside of the confessional and I will turn you in!” If you honestly decide which the priest is obligated to do, you will decide the latter is the best choice.

2.) You aren’t obligated to follow the priest’s advice! There are tons of priests out there! Get some other advice! Go to twenty different priests! It really doesn’t matter!

Good luck, I hope I have helped you in your struggle to understand the true value of Confession.

 

[strugglingalong]

**1.) **The priest was right, you probably should have been taking some anti-stress drugs.

With all due respect Father, how can you possibly make such a diagnosis on an Internet forum especially since you said you didn’t read all the OP said?

Shouldn’t whether one should or should not take medication be a diagnosis left to the proper professionals?

I mean no harm or disrespect, however it strikes me as odd how you can make such a strong recommendation based on scant evidence.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Father_JohnBerg]

“Shouldn’t whether one should or should not take medication be a diagnosis left to the proper professionals?”

This phrase in particular attracts my notice: if someone gets a rattlesnake bite, would you say, “Leave the curing to the professionals?” Of course not! You would get out your snake-bite kit and cure them on the spot! The same is true if someonce comes to you and says, “I’m really stressed out!” Should you suggest, “You are fine, my son, pray and all will be well.” No! You tell them that they should get a doctor to assign them some medication. Of course, you tell them to pray, but you also offer them practical advice as well. This along the lines of the Protestant view of “By faith alone ye shall be saved” but the Catholics believe by faith and Works.

And as a matter of fact, I just read it and I still hold to my assertion.

With all due respect Father, how can you possibly make such a diagnosis on an Internet forum especially since you said you didn’t read all the OP said?

Shouldn’t whether one should or should not take medication be a diagnosis left to the proper professionals?

I mean no harm or disrespect, however it strikes me as odd how you can make such a strong recommendation based on scant evidence.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[strugglingalong]

“Shouldn’t whether one should or should not take medication be a diagnosis left to the proper professionals?”

This phrase in particular attracts my notice: if someone gets a rattlesnake bite, would you say, “Leave the curing to the professionals?” Of course not! You would get out your snake-bite kit and cure them on the spot! The same is true if someonce comes to you and says, “I’m really stressed out!” Should you suggest, “You are fine, my son, pray and all will be well.” No! You tell them that they should get a doctor to assign them some medication. Of course, you tell them to pray, but you also offer them practical advice as well. This along the lines of the Protestant view of “By faith alone ye shall be saved” but the Catholics believe by faith and Works.

A snake bit is a very objective bodily injury and the cure is verified. Professionals themselves disagree on what is a mental illness and what is not, what requires medication and what does not. Yes, if the OP had a snake bite I’d say you’re right - go get medicine for it. But mental illness is not that straight forward. I can understand a priest saying, “You should talk to a mental health professional” but saying, “You should be on psychotropic medication” is beyond suggestion, it is diagnosis. I think that is best left to professionals in that area.

And incidentally, “saved by faith and works” has nothing to do with medication. I’m not saying the OP should trust God to heal her if she has a mental illness. I’m saying that far too many people jump to the conclusion to take psychotropic medication as a solution to a problem that may not require it. Many psychiatrists are very skeptical about what constitutes a situation where medication for the brain is necessary; many agree that there is substantial over-medication going on for mental illness in our world today.

By your advice, dear Father, I’d expect many Saints who came and complained to you of their mental and emotional sufferings would be advised to take medication that in fact lessens their human authenticity when in fact they made it just fine with God’s help. Many psychological professionals claim many Saints had mental disorders - that says a lot. It’s just not as easy as, “Well you sound stressed so you should take medication.”

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Scottgun]

This is going to sound waaay left field, but distracted, have you discerned any call to the priesthood or the diaconate?

 

[EasterJoy]

But along with all of this talk of “the best thing you can do is take medication if you have a mental disorder” goes the idea that the belief of what makes a mental disorder varies greatly from psychiatrist to psychiatrist - and what is a problem that requires medication is debated. Most any discomfort or problem in our day is considered a “mental illness.”…

…I do think most people - save those in extreme problems that cannot be worked through - can work through their problems with a spiritual director and/or an orthodox Catholic counselor. Most often in involves a change of mind, lifestyle and actions.

Pax Christi tecum.

You may think that, but you haven’t heard the same people beat themselves up over the same seemingly insurmountable problems, confession after confession after confession, and who only conquer those problems when they finally admitted that maybe they do need medical or psychological help. So maybe a priest has a quite a bit more experience than does the typical layperson when it comes to organic assaults upon the soul.

Yes, sure, there is a big rush to medicate the wear and tear of life these days. There are undoubtedly people trying to find psychological answers to what is a spiritual problem. There are also people who use God as an excuse for DIY psychiatry. Again, this does not necessarily describe the OP! But when two priests advise you to go back and give psychology a chance, it is at least worth considering that you might be in the group who can’t go the “me and Jesus” route. It is certainly not a mark against the priests that they suggested it. Remember, we don’t know what they saw, either, and quite frankly, the OP would have an unusual gift of self-awareness if he truly saw everything in himself that a good and experienced confessor might have picked up in about two minutes.

There are a lot of people who do great until they decide “I can make it on my own!” and go off their medication, then go back on, do great, then go back off the medication (on their own advice, again), crash, and so on. Their life histories shows that medication and therapy can make a huge difference. Modern psychiatry sometimes over-reaches, but it isn’t the quack voodoo that some people make it out to be, either.

Some of life’s problems do have a medical cause and a medical cure, and some of those problems are life-threatening.

A snake bit is a very objective bodily injury and the cure is verified. Professionals themselves disagree on what is a mental illness and what is not, what requires medication and what does not. Yes, if the OP had a snake bite I’d say you’re right - go get medicine for it. But mental illness is not that straight forward…

If you have the worst headache of your life, you had better get yourself to an emergency department, right now. Sure, maybe it is just your first migraine. But maybe it is a stroke. Laypeople need to know this and convince other laypeople to seek immediate treatment.

If you feel as if an elephant is standing on your chest, do not drive yourself to the doctor. Call 9-11. Otherwise, you may die of your heart attack before you get there. Again, let’s hope your friends have enough self-confidence to insist on this.

There are mental issues that can kill you just as surely as a heart attack or stroke. A patient who sticks with “do-it-yourself diagnosis” for too long may slide into a mental state that is too depressed to hope for help, just as a person who has waved off that “indigestion” for too long, over the protest of lay friends who “don’t know any medicine” might find themselves too incapacitated to call their own ambulance.

I’m not criticizing the OP directly, because obviously 99% of that person’s case can’t be judged over the internet. In general, though, if two priests tell you to get treatment for your mental health issues, it is not wise ignore their advice. Sure, just like the headache, it may turn out to be something that is not life-threatening. Sometimes a person “just knows” the difference. But sometimes they don’t, and a lot of times, they know, and don’t want to admit it. Lots of people die that way, of both physical and mental causes that would have been treatable.

There is a reason that the Church does not judge suicides to have died in mortal sin. These problems can progress to the point of serious impairment of sound judgement and free will. Other people do not die, but suffer serious unnecessary impairment. A mental health problem that causes any sort of incapacitation is not something to mess around with.

 

[distracted]

So, by your logic, if God had wanted me to see clearly more than a metre ahead of me I’d have been born with glasses or they’d have popped out of an orifice the first time I required them?

not the same thing… besides, i was being half-facetious with that “if God had wanted…” argument…

Coffee also has caffeine in it, so obviously God wanted people who drink a lot of coffee not to sleep and to do overtime at work.

Uh… you could try drinking coffee with a meal rather than by itself (?) And by the way, coffe does not keep everyone awake. It doesnt do that to me…

.

Likewise with chocolate, after all why would we trust a multinational company, whose main aim is to make money, to provide sustenance for us?

didn’t base my “knowledge” on waht the choc co. said… I base it on experience… Remember that one??

you have spoken about your problems with two Priests, who have almost certainly been called to that position by God. Both of them have suggested you seek help from a psychologist. God can and often does guide us through his Priests, there is a reason it’s the Priest that does the Homily and not just a random lay person.

The Bible says to call no man your father (guru or leader in all things). In other words, do not put your utter trust in human beings. Good advice…

The Priest is not sitting in the Confessional to have a chat with you or anyone else, he’s there to hear your confession, give penance,

:extrahappy: (uh… could you tell the priest that?? Thanks.)

You should be aware that hearing voices or words in your head is not always a good thing, sometimes it may be Jesus others it may be the Devil

Oh gee… i never thought of THAT!!! Maybe i should let you be the exception to that aforementioned scripture warning… In other words, maybe i should let you be my guru… i mean, you know, seeing as how you know so much about me and all…

 

[EasterJoy]

:extrahappy: uh… could you tell the priest that?? Thanks.

Or maybe, we’ll just let the priests decide how to be confessors.
As our priest poster said:

You aren’t obligated to follow the priest’s advice! There are tons of priests out there! Get some other advice! Go to twenty different priests! It really doesn’t matter!

Make your confession and act of contrition, receive your absolution, do your penance–or else get up and leave before absolution (I’ve heard a priest give permission for that, too, in cases where the confessor is over-the-top bad)–and if it is clear that this priest ought not be your regular confessor, then keep seeking the Sacrament from wise and holy priests until you find the right one for you.

As for any other issues, may you find just the right road through them. Maybe you shouldn’t try to re-make any priests, though; I mean, you have enough on your plate, right? It is probably best for your peace of mind to just keep your eye on the ball.

Good luck, and God bless you, “Distracted”!

 

[Charlie_Vivian]

Dear Distracted,

I am medically qualified, and also have a diploma in counselling. My main interest in medicine is psychology. I am a new convert to Catholicism, having previously been an Evangelical/ Charismatic Christian for 20 years. I was previously very into a faith-based teaching: ie everything is by faith, and there’s nothing good apart from it.

What I love about being a Catholic is that the church teaches that there is no contradiction between faith and reason, since God is the author of both. Many psychologists may be atheists, and this may mean some of their tools are a mixture of good and bad. But, as a Catholic, we can all acknowledge truth from whatever source. I take a fairly pragmatic line: if it helps, and it doesn’t contradict the Bible/church teaching, it’s good!

Finally, I saw a huge amount of praying for people within the charismatic movement. But a lot of the people were badly scarred, and I really felt they needed lots of sessions of counselling to be healed, rather than a few short prayers. Could they be healed miraculously? Of course. But this doesn’t make the slow lane wrong. And if the slow lane works, why not use it?

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

I have heard some very worldly advice coming from priests these days, whether in homilies or in the confessional or wherever…

This one priest, during confession, got very irritated w/ me because i wouldn’t agree to take psych drugs… When i said that (something to the effect of) i would rather carry my cross… He got angry and said something about … that i was inflicting crosses on others… Little does he know… I don’t socialize much, so can’t inflict too much of my cross on anyone… & when i do socialize, i try not to do such things…

anyway… another priest suggested i get counseling about this issue i brought up… Then he kept bringing up an issue from my distant past, went on and on about how i need to be healed of tht, even though i told him, in effect, that Jesus had already healed me and was continuing the process of healing… He seemed to ignore the issue i thought was most important… to focus on what he thought was important…

It just seems that priests nowadays (a lot of them) are more into psychology than spiritualiity… and True Psychology comes from Jesus… the one who knows us perfectly…

Have you experienced this or something like it??

Formation/education is much greater now than 2000 years ago. The priest in your situation was doing his ministry by helping you the best he could while staying in the present. You mentioned psych drugs, they were prescribed by a doctor to you for a reason and all the priest is saying is listen to the doctor, listen to modern medicine.

Councling is another resource that should be taken advantage of and another positive change in society over 2000+ years. All of us need help both from the inside and outside, spiritual growth like you mentioned is one way, but the priest in your post sees a need in you to get outside help beyond him or what you can help yourself. It is not a negative thing, but a positive thing.

 

[Nans]

I have heard some very worldly advice coming from priests these days, whether in homilies or in the confessional or wherever…

This one priest, during confession, got very irritated w/ me because i wouldn’t agree to take psych drugs… When i said that (something to the effect of) i would rather carry my cross… He got angry and said something about … that i was inflicting crosses on others… Little does he know… I don’t socialize much, so can’t inflict too much of my cross on anyone… & when i do socialize, i try not to do such things…

anyway… another priest suggested i get counseling about this issue i brought up… Then he kept bringing up an issue from my distant past, went on and on about how i need to be healed of tht, even though i told him, in effect, that Jesus had already healed me and was continuing the process of healing… He seemed to ignore the issue i thought was most important… to focus on what he thought was important…

It just seems that priests nowadays (a lot of them) are more into psychology than spiritualiity… and True Psychology comes from Jesus… the one who knows us perfectly…

Have you experienced this or something like it??

I am not Catholic so I haven’t experienced this, but I tend to agree with you. Medical science has a distinct place in all of our lives, obviously, but its a fairly well known notion that some of the drugs prescribed today can be very detrimental to you mentally and actually to others. I have an article that you might be interested in, if you want to PM me I will be more than happy to send you the link.

I believe that there is much that we do not know about brain function, and the pharmaceutical companies stand to gain much from this ignorance.

I am sure that there are those out there that have been helped by these drugs, and certainly it is dangerous from what I have read if you stop them on your own. I wouldn’t dismiss them entirely, but I also would not assume just on any doctors advice that I actually need them.

God bless you!

 

[distracted]

As for any other issues, may you find just the right road through them. Maybe you shouldn’t try to re-make any priests, though; I mean, you have enough on your plate, right? It is probably best for your peace of mind to just keep your eye on the ball.

Good luck, and God bless you, “Distracted”!

thanks. Fortunately, i am not committing any mortal sins these days so dont’ have to drive 100 miles to a good confessor… (so it seems )…

like i said elsewhere, some men who join the priesthood do so for selfish reasons… just as all of us do… Many of them seem (SEEM) to think that putting on that collar entitles them to more respect than ordinary people should get and if you don’t “bow” to them somehow, you are not a good Christian. I’ve seen a lot of things in this world… i am cynical and question everything and everyone… and after being victim to one too many “rude” (etc) priests, i am… well… not in the mood… shall we say…

 

[elts1956]

thanks. Fortunately, i am not committing any mortal sins these days so dont’ have to drive 100 miles to a good confessor… (so it seems )…

like i said elsewhere, some men who join the priesthood do so for selfish reasons… just as all of us do… Many of them seem (SEEM) to think that putting on that collar entitles them to more respect than ordinary people should get and if you don’t “bow” to them somehow, you are not a good Christian. I’ve seen a lot of things in this world… i am cynical and question everything and everyone… and after being victim to one too many “rude” (etc) priests, i am… well… not in the mood… shall we say…

It seems, once again, distracted, you are ignoring the beam in your eye to look for the splinter in someone else’s, this being the priests.

 

[distracted]

With all due respect Father, how can you possibly make such a diagnosis on an Internet forum especially since you said you didn’t read all the OP said?

Shouldn’t whether one should or should not take medication be a diagnosis left to the proper professionals?

I mean no harm or disrespect, however it strikes me as odd how you can make such a strong recommendation based on scant evidence.

Pax Christi tecum.

**Very well said… What i would have said if i had thought the comment worthy of responding to… **

 

[distracted]

I
I am sure that there are those out there that have been helped by these drugs, and certainly it is dangerous from what I have read if you stop them on your own. I wouldn’t dismiss them entirely, but I also would not assume just on any doctors advice that I actually need them.

God bless you!

thank you.

i read somewhere that many of the disorders they think are biological really ARE spiritual in nature. I happen to KNOW that mine is (If you knew a fraction of whaat i have been through, you would know what i mean… which brings me to the point): No one knows what another person is going through or has been through… No one should ever say, without doubt, what that person should or should not do… For one thing, if a person gives advice (even a doctor or other professional), s/he doesn’t know how the other is going to respond to it. I have actually felt deeper depression in talking to some particular person about my issues than when just giving them to Jesus… which is a very important thing to remember because Some people feel so depressed they wnat to end their lives. I have felt that way… and i am sure i will feel that way again because i know how things go in this world… Jesus never makes me feel depressed…