Priests out of uniform

[sojo]

I used to go on retreat (can’t afford it anymore) to a lovely Carmelite monastery. The monks there were wonderful, and they led great retreats. But being an adult convert, I was no doubt also caught up in the romanticism of these devout men, dressed in brown with sandals, patiently being there for our little group and attending to the daily tasks of life.

So when I caught sight of one of the young monks ditching his robe, dressed in California summer attire, and racing to his sports car out the back door, I was a little disappointed. Seemed like he couldn’t wait to ditch the whole scene.

But then I corrected myself - his habit and any rules surrounding it are from his order, not my need for a romantic picture of what Religious life is about. In other words, it was MY problem, not his.

I never really knew any Sisters in habit - by the time I converted, all the sisters I had the pleasure of meeting wore conservative but modern attire. I found myself on more than one occasion wishing they would all dress in full habits. But I always stop and remind myself that they have committed themselves to a whole set of rules by which they have to live their lives. It is an enormous and powerful commitment, and for me to fixate or be petulant that they aren’t dressing like the romantic movie nuns is ridiculous.

I agree with some Religious (like Fr. Groeshel) who believe the habit can be a powerful reminder of faith to the world. But I also have to be honest - I, myself, shouldn’t need how a Religious dresses to affirm my own faith. Just knowing there are Brothers, Fathers, Sisters and Nuns out there should be blessing enough.

If it is part of a charism of an order to wear a habit full-time in order to minister to the world, then they do. If it is not part of their charism, or if they believe it would work against their ministry, they don’t.

My apologies to Br. David if I butchered some of the language here. I’m not very fluent in the religious life and its language subtleties.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I used to go on retreat (can’t afford it anymore) to a lovely Carmelite monastery. The monks there were wonderful, and they led great retreats. But being an adult convert, I was no doubt also caught up in the romanticism of these devout men, dressed in brown with sandals, patiently being there for our little group and attending to the daily tasks of life.

So when I caught sight of one of the young monks ditching his robe, dressed in California summer attire, and racing to his sports car out the back door, I was a little disappointed. Seemed like he couldn’t wait to ditch the whole scene.

But then I corrected myself - his habit and any rules surrounding it are from his order, not my need for a romantic picture of what Religious life is about. In other words, it was MY problem, not his.

I never really knew any Sisters in habit - by the time I converted, all the sisters I had the pleasure of meeting wore conservative but modern attire. I found myself on more than one occasion wishing they would all dress in full habits. But I always stop and remind myself that they have committed themselves to a whole set of rules by which they have to live their lives. It is an enormous and powerful commitment, and for me to fixate or be petulant that they aren’t dressing like the romantic movie nuns is ridiculous.

I agree with some Religious (like Fr. Groeshel) who believe the habit can be a powerful reminder of faith to the world. But I also have to be honest - I, myself, shouldn’t need how a Religious dresses to affirm my own faith. Just knowing there are Brothers, Fathers, Sisters and Nuns out there should be blessing enough.

If it is part of a charism of an order to wear a habit full-time in order to minister to the world, then they do. If it is not part of their charism, or if they believe it would work against their ministry, they don’t.

My apologies to Br. David if I butchered some of the language here. I’m not very fluent in the religious life and its language subtleties.

You did fine and I thank you for your comments.

 

[FrCorey]

It is not my purpose to be argumentative with you, merely stating my opinion. But, as some professions are not merely “jobs” ie: Clergy, Police officers, Firemen, Paramedics, EMTs, members of the military etc, we are are held to a higher standard than others and are set apart by our calling and identified by our distinctive garb. As a professional Fireman/Paramedic and as a member of the military, I was held accountable for my conduct both on and off duty. As a paramedic, I was bound by law to render aid in an emergency, both on and off duty. I must believe that clergy are bound by the same rules. Does that have anything to do with wearing clericals? Perhaps not, but folks like us are basically “on duty” all the time and perhaps should be identified as members of this special “calling.” Just my two cents.

it not just a job, it’s a life style?

 

[hosemonkey]

it not just a job, it’s a life style?

Yes, it is a lifestyle. I know that I and many of those like me have undergone experiences that have been truly life-changing. Our close association with life and death situations have many times formed and shaped our view of the world and the way that we regard our faith and the way that we deal with our fellow humans. I did three combat tours in Vietnam and that experience caused me to seek out the helping and healing professions in order to make reparation for the dealing out of death that we had to do as part of our mission. I make no apologies for doing my duty, but such intense experiences do leave their mark and I found that my chosen profession helped me to cope. In actual fact, the war turned many of us into adrenaline junkies. I still marvel that I spent all that time there as a self-proclaimed athiest. How foolish.

 

[padreb]

Which all of these rules were laid out for you in the Uniform Code of Justice, correct? The laws of the military.

So, as an analogy, priests have just a set of laws, called the Code of Canon Law, which spells out that a priest should be in clerical dress when he is ministering. It goes no further, does not spell out how a priest is to dress on “his own time”.

So if the UCJ did/does not spell out what one must wear when off duty would you expect everyone in the military to wear their uniforms at all times?

So where in the following (canon law) does it say when ministering?

"… The National Conference of Catholic Bishops, in accord with the prescriptions of canon 284, hereby decrees that without prejudice to the provisions of canon 288, clerics are to dress in conformity with their sacred calling.

In liturgical rites, clerics shall wear the vesture prescribed in the proper liturgical books. **Outside liturgical functions, a black suit and Roman collar are the usual attire for priests. The use of the cassock is at the discretion of the cleric.
**
In the case of religious clerics, the determinations of their proper institutes or societies are to be observed with regard to wearing the religious habit. …"

You can also find various exhortations. For example, there is this from John Paul II in Vita consecrata: “Since the habit is a sign of consecration, poverty and membership in a particular Religious family, I join the Fathers of the Synod in strongly recommending to men and women religious that they wear their proper habit, suitably adapted to the conditions of time and place.**Where valid reasons of their apostolate call for it, **Religious, in conformity with the norms of their Institute, may also dress in a simple and modest manner, with an appropriate symbol, in such a way that their consecration is recognizable. Institutes which from their origin or by provision of their Constitutions do not have a specific habit should ensure that the dress of their members corresponds in dignity and simplicity to the nature of their vocation” (n. 25).

Does that sound like canon law is allowing for casual attire for days off?

 

[PbloPicasso]

Now there is a idea. casual wear for clergy. that whats we need.

Like I said, back in 1979/80, I met, not knew, a deacon that had just been ordained and had a whole wardrobe in all kinds of colors, very preppy looking. As in to fashion as I was becoming it it just seemed distasteful and missed to mark on the office.

I know you know this, father, but some people trying to compare the clergy to police and other types of vocations, jobs, is completely off base. When we speak of the clergy, we speak of an office, a vocation to the office of diaconate, presbyter, and episcopate, not some job you can’t just leave. Not even the military compares. So I just had to say that to get if off my shoulders.

Firefighter ≠ Priest

 

[Aramis]

Now there is a idea. casual wear for clergy. that whats we need.

Rev. Fr. Leo Walsh, STL, is notorious for clerical collar under aloha shirts…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I know of no firefighters, parametics, or military people who wear their uniform 24/7.

My apologies to the guy in the Navy…but my husband was in the Air Force…he fought in the first Gulf War…now he is a disabled vet…and he never wore his uniform all the time. Does that mean he didn’t know who he was…or that he sacraficed less? No.

I believe a priest always knows who he is…and he is always held to a higher standard…I just disagree that this means he must always wear his Roman collar. Does that mean he wouldn’t drop everything to administer the sacraments if truly needed? NO!

Just like I wouldn’t refuse the help of a doctor if I was in an accident just because they weren’t wearing a “uniform”

 

[PbloPicasso]

Maybe the bishops should require the priests to get a tattoo collar on the neck. I thought of starting a cleric line of sleepwear too. Black t-shirts with the white collar. I think 24/7 would be good. The only thing I wear 24/7 is my brown scapular. Even parents take breaks from their children and even each other. I’d say I don’t take off my ring, but that would not be true. I take if off to sleep or when I’m doing something that could cause me to lose the finger. I went to the grocery store tonight without it, but that was just because I forgot. I feel naked without it when I’m out and about.

I think that as long as the priest realizes who he is and is not trying to “hide” from his vocation there would be nothing wrong. I know a former Anglican priest convert to Catholicism that wears his clerics all the time and doesn’t apologize for it. And he’s married. He does it all and lives out his vocation faithfully.

 

[Aramis]

I know of no firefighters, parametics, or military people who wear their uniform 24/7.

Then you don’t know enough people in the military.

It’s SOP for shipboard life in the USN, USMC, and USCG. It’s no longer standard for shoreside personnel, but it used to be. Submariners will be in uniform except when asleep or bathing, and don’t even have a hope for shore leave when deployed.

Most of the deployed troops have no civilian attire with them.

Base life is not the whole of the military.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

That would be a misreading of Matthew Holford’s post. He did not say he would avoid any priest who wears cassock, et al. He said that merely wearing such things did not automatically make someone a good priest.

Exactly what I meant.

Plus, I couldn’t afford the airfares or the time to go to St. Louis to make my confession

 

[StTommyMore]

I recently talked to my own priest about this. When he was first ordained he would wear his clericals all of the time. But when he was assigned to a parish at a vacation area, he wore them less often, and he found that he became more approachable. IOW he was better able to serve his people.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Then you don’t know enough people in the military.

It’s SOP for shipboard life in the USN, USMC, and USCG. It’s no longer standard for shoreside personnel, but it used to be. Submariners will be in uniform except when asleep or bathing, and don’t even have a hope for shore leave when deployed.

Most of the deployed troops have no civilian attire with them.

Base life is not the whole of the military.

But then you have to admit…shipboard life is not the whole of the military either. BTW…I have pictures of my husband and others over in the desert…not in uniform.

But when you are on the ship…aren’t you mostly “on duty?”…much like my husband was when he used to be on “alert” (something they no longer have)

The point being…not all military wear their uniform 24/7 now…whether you want to make it true or not!

 

[padreb]

I recently talked to my own priest about this. When he was first ordained he would wear his clericals all of the time. But when he was assigned to a parish at a vacation area, he wore them less often, and he found that he became more approachable. IOW he was better able to serve his people.

I find this unbelievable from my own experience.

Many years ago (back in the 1970’s) I was in the airport dressed in my cassock. Sitting across the waiting area was a man I noticed. He was also a priest, dressed in civies (we priests can pick each other out of a crowd). While waiting for our plane I was approached by a number of people some to just say hi, 1 asked for confession and some just to chat. The other priest sat there alone. Right before we boarded the plane this other priest came up to me and said hello and introduced himself. He said that he no longer wore clericals in order to be more approachable by the people. I pointed out my observation that while waiting for the plane I (in clerical garb) was approached by many people, he was approached by no one. It gave him pause to reconsider. This priest and I have kept in touch and become good friends ever since. He now wears a cassock or clerical shirt and collar whenever he goes out **in order to be more approachable by the people.
**
How people think not wearing clericals makes them more approachable makes no sense to me. If you look just like everyone else why would anyone approach you?

 

[StTommyMore]

padreb:
I find this unbelievable from my own experience.

Many years ago (back in the 1970’s) I was in the airport dressed in my cassock. Sitting across the waiting area was a man I noticed. He was also a priest, dressed in civies (we priests can pick each other out of a crowd). While waiting for our plane I was approached by a number of people some to just say hi, 1 asked for confession and some just to chat. The other priest sat there alone. Right before we boarded the plane this other priest came up to me and said hello and introduced himself. He said that he no longer wore clericals in order to be more approachable by the people. I pointed out my observation that while waiting for the plane I (in clerical garb) was approached by many people, he was approached by no one. It gave him pause to reconsider. This priest and I have kept in touch and become good friends ever since. He now wears a cassock or clerical shirt and collar whenever he goes out **in order to be more approachable by the people.
**
How people think not wearing clericals makes them more approachable makes no sense to me. If you look just like everyone else why would anyone approach you?

Are you calling my priest, a very effective priest I might add, a liar? I believe him more than I believe you. Keep in mind the clericals are a tool, not a straitjacket, and different circumstances will yield different results. Yes, you will be approached more in a situation in public where you are not around your flock. But how about in your office? Or in your hometown? SOme find the clericals intimidating. Perhaps it is time to remember who you are called to serve primarily, and with all due respect, it isn’t a stranger in an airport.

 

[Aramis]

But then you have to admit…shipboard life is not the whole of the military either. BTW…I have pictures of my husband and others over in the desert…not in uniform.

But when you are on the ship…aren’t you mostly “on duty?”…much like my husband was when he used to be on “alert” (something they no longer have)

No. Shipboard duty is 8 of every 20 hours; the rest is off-duty time. Unless an alert is called. Navy regulation, however, includes specified sleep garments (namely, T-shirt and underpants, bra optional for females), and mandates being dressed at all times when one isn’t showering or in medical.

A navy man’s locker has 1/3 cubic foot of personal drawer (12x12x4"). Everything other than his issued kit is required to fit in there. Including his computer, books, games, photos, etc.

They are assigned aboard for 6+ months. They are required to be in uniform in foreign ports. They are required to be in uniform for embark/debark. They are required to be in some uniform when out of bunk aboard, except when showering.

Judging the navy by USAF standards is like judging city life by Dutch Harbor, Alaska… or civilian life by Attica Prison.

 

[hosemonkey]

No. Shipboard duty is 8 of every 20 hours; the rest is off-duty time. Unless an alert is called. Navy regulation, however, includes specified sleep garments (namely, T-shirt and underpants, bra optional for females), and mandates being dressed at all times when one isn’t showering or in medical.

A navy man’s locker has 1/3 cubic foot of personal drawer (12x12x4"). Everything other than his issued kit is required to fit in there. Including his computer, books, games, photos, etc.

Sounds like ya been there, old mate.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

When all is said and argued, ultimately, the dress of the priest is between the priest and his bishop/superior.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

No. Shipboard duty is 8 of every 20 hours; the rest is off-duty time. Unless an alert is called. Navy regulation, however, includes specified sleep garments (namely, T-shirt and underpants, bra optional for females), and mandates being dressed at all times when one isn’t showering or in medical.

A navy man’s locker has 1/3 cubic foot of personal drawer (12x12x4"). Everything other than his issued kit is required to fit in there. Including his computer, books, games, photos, etc.

They are assigned aboard for 6+ months. They are required to be in uniform in foreign ports. They are required to be in uniform for embark/debark. They are required to be in some uniform when out of bunk aboard, except when showering.

Judging the navy by USAF standards is like judging city life by Dutch Harbor, Alaska… or civilian life by Attica Prison.

So part of the reason is there is no space for anything other than a uniform.

Most, if not all, priests and religious have storage space larger than 1/3 cubic feet.

So I do not really see how a navy man on ship compares.

Apples and oranges.

Also these military are dressed how they dress due to orders. Priests and religious also can be ordered to dress a certain way. Many are given an amount of time where they can decide how they will dress.

So again, I am having trouble seeing the connection.

I also believe you are off of foreign ports. I seem to remember watching Carrier on PBS which covered the deployment of one of our Navy’s Aircraft Carriers, when they were given leave while in port they were not dressed in uniform.

 

[hosemonkey]

So part of the reason is there is no space for anything other than a uniform.

Most, if not all, priests and religious have storage space larger than 1/3 cubic feet.

I think that we’ve beaten this horse enough. I recognise that there is a vast difference between sailors and priests and religious, but there do exist some similarities. I guess that that in my day priests and sailors both took vows of poverty and obedience.