Priests Told: Deny Communion to Politicians Who Support Abortion

[Timothy_Garber]

I’m curious, if you truly believe it’s murder, then shouldn’t the person committing the murder be held responsible? Would you send the woman and doctor to jail?

Ah, but we can’t send them to jail, can we? The law doesn’t recognize it as murder, so nothing can be done to the people who do commit such sins. But the pro-life movement is trying to change this, trying to make it illegal so that people don’t have abortions. The law should be alike a great teacher.

 

[Timothy_Garber]

I didn’t say they’re not organised. I said they’re not organised enough. It’s a winnable argument for us, but I don’t think they’re using politics correctly. They’re preaching to those who already agree; I don’t feel like they’re reaching out to the middle. It’s played out as an issue of the right; it should be played out as an issue of universal consensus. It’s presented as a religious issue; it should be played out as a human rights issue (and as a matter of fact, people of my generation have the absurd belief that it is a human right to be able to get an abortion).

If the middle doesn’t move, then politicians won’t feel the heat. That’s where they need to set the troops. Don’t convert the people who don’t need the converting. Keep them armed with information and informed so they can defend your side, yes. They need to convert the movable middle. That’s where it needs to be more organised.

What have you heard or seen about the pro-life movement that made you think this way? I was just at the Walk-for-life West Coast and I saw no evidence of this type of disorganization.

 

[Megan7]

Because it would have been a very public repentance.

This is not an issue of mortal sin. That is only one reason why the Church would deny someone Holy Communion.

The Canon that +Burke speaks of is C. 915

The key word there is ‘manifest’ or well known. The Sacrament of Reconciliation would remove the person sin, but the manifest persistence would be public. As a public act, the repentance is public as well. The politician would have to have indicated that they have changed their public stance in favor of Life.

An example given by Rome is the case of Catholics who have divorced and remarried. Even if they live together chastely, they are to be denied public reception of Holy Communion, if the knowledge of their state is well known.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20000706_declaration_en.html

Thanks.

 

[HansTrappist]

The Bishops should have been denying Communion to these Catholic politicians long ago. But better late than never. Not only is it a mortal sin to support abortion, it is also a sacrilege to receive Communion in the state of mortal sin. Receiving Communion in the state of mortal sin is not only harmful to the soul, it can also damage a person physically.

But I think the Bishops should go a step further than simply refusing Communion to defiant Catholics. They should learn a lesson from the German Bishops of the 1930’s who forbade membership in the Nazi party, and excommunicated Catholics who joined the Nazis. The Nazi party had support for intrinsic evil built right into their party Platform. The Democrat Party also has support for intrinsic evil (abortion) built right into their Party platform. The U.S. Bishops need to follow in the courageous footsteps of the German Bishops.

 

[PazzoGrande]

What have you heard or seen about the pro-life movement that made you think this way? I was just at the Walk-for-life West Coast and I saw no evidence of this type of disorganization.

I do take part in pro-life causes too. For example, I did 40 Days for Life.

But the way I see it, we don’t get organised in a way that converts the middle to our point of view.

I really don’t believe that the anti-abortion movement as a human rights issue really gets out to the average joe. They think it’s a “Jesus Freak” issue.

Take this for example
youtube.com/watch?v=_sTjJ-3NdwE
I happen to know the guy who made it, the one who is speaking. What he did is what needs to be done.

The girl thinks it’s a Christian issue. It isn’t. We need to reach out to those people who think that it’s just for the religious right.

To put it another way, when you go to those pro-life rallies, it seems that everyone who is there is armed with a Rosary, right? People who go do so out of religious conviction. That’s all well and good, but it just reinforces the stereotype that it’s just for our side of the political and religious spectrum.

Anything more than that, we can agree to disagree.

 

[PazzoGrande]

The U.S. Bishops need to follow in the courageous footsteps of the German Bishops.

12 million died in the Holocaust.
50 million died since Roe v Wade.

Not chump change considering the US is only a bit over 300 million.

 

[BroomWagon]

Big Abortion Story breaking right now, I just can’t find a good source like AP or UPI but…

Sundance Film Festival ‘HERO’ Leroy Carhart Kills Young Woman During 3rd Trimester Abortion in Germantown, MD

GERMANTOWN, Md., Feb. 8, 2013 /Christian Newswire/ – A 29 year-old woman was pronounced dead at a local hospital in Germantown, MD on Thursday, February 7th, as a direct result of complications experienced during a 3rd trimester abortion by LeRoy Carhart – who was hailed as a “hero” in the film “After Tiller” at the recent Sundance Film Festival.

The young woman arrived at Carhart’s Germantown, MD, abortion facility – Germantown Reproductive Health Services – Sunday evening to begin a risky, four-day, third-trimester abortion. She was approximately 33 weeks pregnant.

christiannewswire.com/news/184171463.html

Officials for Operation Rescue, one of the cutting edge pro-life organizations in the U.S. ever since it bought an abortion clinic to shut it down and convert the building into its pro-life headquarters in Wichita, are reporting the death of a woman in Maryland after her “medical procedure” went wrong and the abortionist couldn’t be reached.
Read more at wnd.com/2013/02/late-term-abortionist-awol-as-patient-dies/#uTomLOio0ORrdYDd.99

 

[Rayv]

maybe the whole solution to these questions is confession.
Perhaps the polititans and doctors go to confession and get communion, then commit the sin again.
before you discount this lets look at my youth.
as a typical boy I masturbated. I knew that at the time it was considered a mortal sin. so when I went to confession I confessed and promised not to do it.
then I went to communion.
by Sunday afternoon the urge was so strong again that I couldn’t help it and started again.
the beauty of the Catholic way of life. such tough choices and rationalizations we do to get through.
By the way, is masturbation ok now. I don’t hear anything about it any more. kind of like eating meat on fridays. or paying for an annulment but can’t get a divorce.
Well I will get off this site now. I am no longer Catholic and can’t stand the hypocrisy of religion. any religion. and don’t pray for me, I believe in God and Heaven, just not this way.

 

[Lucky7]

The Bishops should have been denying Communion to these Catholic politicians long ago. But better late than never.

Yup. Now let’s see it in action.

 

[ProVobis]

50 million died since Roe v Wade.

Probably more than that before Roe v Wade.

 

[mary_bobo]

Probably more than that before Roe v Wade.

Proof, please.

 

[ProVobis]

Proof, please.

Does one need to provide proof for “probably”? Abortions have been done since ancient times.

But why am I telling you this?

Before the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, data on abortion in the United States were scarce. In 1955, experts had estimated, on the basis of qualitative assumptions, that 200,000-1,200,000 illegal abortions were performed each year.1 Despite its wide range, this estimate remained the most reliable indicator of the magnitude of induced abortion for many years. In 1967, researchers confirmed this estimate by extrapolating data from a randomized-response survey conducted in North Carolina: They concluded that a total of 800,000 induced (mostly illegal) abortions were performed nationally each year.2

At about this time, the availability of legally induced abortion in the United States gradually increased, starting in Mississippi in 1966 and then in Colorado the following year. The controversy that these developments would create spurred public health leaders to obtain accurate and complete information on the number and demographic characteristics of women obtaining abortions, as well as on the effects that legalization of abortion would have on morbidity and mortality.3 Three organizations—the Population Council, The Alan Guttmacher Institute and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)—collaborated to gather data by conducting what became known as abortion surveillance. Their combined effort was instrumental in the evaluation of the public health impact of the legalization of abortion.

guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3502503.html

More at

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States

An excerpt:

The criminalization of abortion accelerated during the 1860s, and by 1900 it was largely illegal in every state. Some states did include provisions allowing for abortion in limited circumstances, generally to protect the woman’s life or to terminate pregnancies arising from rape or incest. Abortions continued to occur, however, and increasingly became readily available. In the 1930s, licensed physicians performed an estimate 800,000 abortions a year.[5] Illegal abortions were often unsafe, sometimes resulting in death, as in the case of Gerri Santoro of Connecticut in 1964.

 

[CaptFun]

Big Abortion Story breaking right now, I just can’t find a good source like AP or UPI but…

If they’re so “good” why did they get scooped? Your sources reported on something that happened at a news conference. I think I know what you mean though. THIS story deserves its own thread and we have to wait until the “news blackout” lifts.

Per the specific headline on this thread - it should be a no-brainer. Unrepentant public sinners on a matter that serious presenting themselves publicly to commit an additional mortal sin (sacrilege) should be “denied” - in all charity.

It would actually be MEANER to allow them to commit more public scandal in the sight of others, misleading the weak in faith, and colluding with them to exponentially increase their eternal punishment (should they never confess and repent). That kind of meanness or apathy toward the Eucharist might put the priest distributing the Eucharist at spiritual risk too.

Thanks for the bulletin Broom Wagon I’ll stay tuned to see if the “good media” covers the Monday press conference.

 

[Caitlyn_Randi]

Mortal sins are:

1. grave matter
2. full knowledge
3. deliberate consent

This breaks the fifth commandment, so it’s definitely a grave matter.
Yes, they know what abortion is and what it does.
And they not only believe in abortion but encourage others to get abortions and support “abortion rights” as well.

I’d say without a doubt that it’s a mortal sin to support abortion.

It is true that abortion is wrong and grave matter however you are not God, nor are you the politicians in question therefore, it is wrong to assert that you know whether or not these individual persons are committing mortal sin based on the criteria. This is wrong simply because it is not certain that those who support abortion have full knowledge of its implications. It is simply wrong to assume that someone who is committing grave matter truly understands its full implications. Also, are we forgetting that politicians are not all one person? A person’s culpability according to the standard of full knowledge, full consent, and grave matter cannot be generalized based on the desires of the people who understand that the action is wrong; it comes from the individual and their decision making at the time of committing the grave matter. To generalize that all politicians who support abortion, (while they are wrong) truly have an understanding of what they do is to play God, and assume that as an human (especially a lay person) you can judge a PERSON rather than an ACTION. The action is wrong, however, especially as persons who do not even know the people they hope to judge; denying them communion without true assurance that they are in fact sinning mortally is wrong.

 

[Ender]

It is true that abortion is wrong and grave matter however you are not God, nor are you the politicians in question therefore, it is wrong to assert that you know whether or not these individual persons are committing mortal sin based on the criteria. This is wrong simply because it is not certain that those who support abortion have full knowledge of its implications. It is simply wrong to assume that someone who is committing grave matter truly understands its full implications.

It isn’t necessary to know a person’s culpability; that is not why communion is to be withheld. It is enough to know that the person is “obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin.” The sin must be grave - which supporting abortion is,it must be manifest - which goes to the public nature of a politician’s position, and he must persevere in that position over time. These criteria are more than satisfied by most pro-abortion politicians.

The action is wrong…

This satisfies that specific criterion.

Ender

 

[Holly3278]

I wish they would do that here.

 

[Brendan]

. To generalize that all politicians who support abortion, (while they are wrong) truly have an understanding of what they do is to play God, and assume that as an human (especially a lay person) you can judge a PERSON rather than an ACTION. The action is wrong, however, especially as persons who do not even know the people they hope to judge; denying them communion without true assurance that they are in fact sinning mortally is wrong.

You are using the wrong Canon.

Canon 917 does not require an guilt of mortal sin. It exists, instead, to preserve the integrity of the Sacrament from public scandal.

That is why the Vatican noted that a couple who attempt remarriage after civil divorce are to be prohibited from the public reception of Holy Communion if their irregular state is publicly known

That is true even if the couple live together as brother and sister (no mortal sin)

They could receive Holy Communion privately, or in a place where their irregular state is NOT publically known (such as another parish)

So the personal state of the soul of the politician is not being judged, nor is their personal knowledge of the sinfulness of the act, but rather the public appearance of sin.

 

[ProVobis]

So the personal state of the soul of the politician is not being judged, nor is their personal knowledge of the sinfulness of the act, but rather the public appearance of sin.

Good point.

 

[zz912]

How does the priest know they didn’t repent before mass?

Because they are manifestly sinning in public. So even if they went to Confession, they would still need to make public their change of heart and repentance, because their silence would indicate their continued approval of their past sinful behavior.

A good example would be their official website. Every one of them has their positions laid out. So the politician would need to change the website to indicate their change, otherwise they are leaving their old views up and viewable, and they give the impression they still hold these views.

 

[zz912]

maybe the whole solution to these questions is confession.
Perhaps the polititans and doctors go to confession and get communion, then commit the sin again.
before you discount this lets look at my youth.
as a typical boy I masturbated. I knew that at the time it was considered a mortal sin. so when I went to confession I confessed and promised not to do it.
then I went to communion.
by Sunday afternoon the urge was so strong again that I couldn’t help it and started again.
the beauty of the Catholic way of life. such tough choices and rationalizations we do to get through.
By the way, is masturbation ok now. I don’t hear anything about it any more. kind of like eating meat on fridays. or paying for an annulment but can’t get a divorce.
Well I will get off this site now. I am no longer Catholic and can’t stand the hypocrisy of religion. any religion. and don’t pray for me, I believe in God and Heaven, just not this way.

If you were tempted and sinned, you pick yourself up and go to Confession. We all sin, and we all should try to stop sinning and correct out ways. I don’t see how that is rationalization. If you instead use Confession as a “get-out-of-jail-free” card, then you are committing a second sin, the sin of presumption.

No, masturbation is not ok, now or anytime in the future. Church teaching doesn’t change. It is sad that you don’t hear about it anymore, as many pastors have shirked their duty to preach about it. Although I doubt you attend mass, so we don’t know if you would have heard it in your parish or not.

Abstaining from meat on Fridays is a disclipine practice, which can change as needed and beneficial for our spiritual development. In the US we are allowed to substitute another discipline practice in place of abstaining from meat on Fridays. (Many people incorrectly think it was eliminated altogether.)

Annulment is not divorce, and you don’t “pay” for it. They do charge a fee to those who can afford it to cover costs associated with the process (no one is denied because they can’t pay). Annulment declares that a valid marriage never existed. And in this day and age, it is unsurprising, considering the awfullness of instruction in the Faith we have seen in the last 50 years. Most people don’t enter into marriage properly informed, nor with the proper intentions.

If you think hypocrisy is only found in religion, you are sorely mistaken. ALL institutions and events are rife with hypocrisy because humans are rife with hypocrisy. It doesn’t change anything about whether the said institution or event is truthful or not.

I will pray for you anyway. And I hope you realize that you are only inserting yourself into the role of Pope in your own religion. And I guarantee you there is hypocrisy in your personal religion. God bless and I hope you stick around.