Prince Harry and Meghan

[thistle]

In other words, you’re making the empty claim I asserted you were:

@thistle: “No one outside the Church is saved!”

@Gorgias: “umm… who’s outside the Church?”

@thistle: “No one.”

You obviously don’t understand my four points. Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation. These are the only four means of baptism, any of which would deem you to be within the catholic Church.

The Church teaching below. It is an infallible teaching that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Then CCC 846 to 848 explains what that means.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

CC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

Also I’m sure everyone is familiar with Tim Staples. Here is a good piece explaining what the Church teaching means:

Is There Really "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?" | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[jfz178]

I think comparing marriage to stealing and killing is a stretch, especially when our current Pope seems on the verge of allowing remarried Catholics to take Communion. That is “Shiite Catholic” stuff.

 

[commenter]

The law of Christ applies to everyone, not only Catholics. If this young woman has once attempted marriage, she is not free to marry a prince or a king or the guy who works at the oil change shop until her first marriage is reviewed by a competent Tribunal. Sad that we just accept serial monogamy as a fact of life these days

This is true. If a person gets an abortion, it is wrong, regardless of what denomination that person belongs to.

The Catholic Church does in fact regard as permanent marriages performed with non Catholics. So if the first marriage was valid, then she would still be married if her husband is still living, and if so, would be committing adultery if she has sexual relations in a second “marriage”. If Megan was seeking marriage now in a Catholic church, the Church would have to assess the validity of her first marriage to see if it were annullable.

Since Megan is not seeking marriage in a Catholic church, the first marriage won’t be assessed by a Catholic tribunal. Maybe it would have had grounds for annullment, maybe not. So we do not know, and for that matter, we should not judge.

 

[PetraG]

“This is Caspian, Sir,” he said. And Caspian knelt and kissed the Lion’s paw.

“Welcome, Prince,” said Aslan. “Do you feel yourself sufficient to take up the Kingship of Narnia?”

“I—I don’t think I do, Sir,” said Caspian. “I’m only a kid.”

“Good,” said Aslan. “If you had felt yourself sufficient, it would have been a proof that you were not…”

(C.S. Lewis, Prince Caspian)

…and…

And presently, as was certain to happen sooner or later, King Lune said it was time for young people to be in bed. “And to-morrow, Cor,” he added, “shalt come over all the castle with me and see the estres and mark all its strength and weakness: for it will be thine to guard when I’m gone.”

“But Corin will be the King then, Father,” said Cor.

“Nay, lad,” said King Lune, “thou art my heir. The crown comes to thee.”

“But I don’t want it,” said Cor. “I’d far rather——”

“'Tis no question what thou wantest, Cor, nor I either. 'Tis in course of law.”

“But if we’re twins we must be the same age.”

“Nay,” said the King with a laugh. “One must come first. Art Corin’s elder by full twenty minutes. And his better too, let’s hope, though that’s no great mastery.” And he looked at Corin with a twinkle in his eyes.

“But, Father, couldn’t you make whichever you like to be the next King?”

“No. The King’s under the law, for it’s the law makes him a king. Hast no more power to start away from thy crown than any sentry from his post.”

“Oh dear,” said Cor. “I don’t want to at all. And Corin—I am most dreadfully sorry. I never dreamed my turning up was going to chisel you out of your kingdom.”

"Hurrah! Hurrah!" said Corin. "I shan’t have to be King. I shan’t have to be King. I’ll always be a prince. It’s princes have all the fun."

“And that’s truer than thy brother knows, Cor,” said King Lune. “For this is what it means to be a king: to be first in every desperate attack and last in every desperate retreat, and when there’s hunger in the land (as must be now and then in bad years) to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land.”

When the two boys were going upstairs to bed Cor again asked Corin if nothing could be done about it. And Corin said:

“If you say another word about it, I’ll—I’ll knock you down.”
(C.S. Lewis, The Horse and His Boy)

 

[on_the_hill]

on_the_hill:

Thinking of all the people I know, most of whom are not Catholic, and I’m bummed that they’re all going to go to hell.

I know the feeling. I have many wonderful, generous non-Catholic friends, too. Even some family members! Kind of puts a damper on the start of 2018 finding out they’ll all be in hell.

And that I’m not a true Catholic because I prefer not to believe that they’ll be in hell. Oh, well. Maybe that means I’m going to go to hell, too. I’ll check back in with CAF after I die and let you all know how it worked out.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Former(?) cocaine addict, party-boy prince marries 30-something former(?) cocaine addict party girl divorcee.

Very dignified.

Where do you get the information they are or were cocaine addicts?!

 

[Kei]

Do you deny that those granted Heaven is because of Faith in Christ? That God established the Christian religion so that we may become part of Christ’s Body, become brothers of our Lord, and be adopted as sons of the Father?

 

[Maximilian75]

are you any better? dont throw stones from a glass house, good sir.

 

[twf]

I think that was probably his point. Where a legal, hereditary nobility doesn’t exist, a functional equivalent emerges just the same.

 

[PickyPicky]

I think that’s true, humans being what they are. Sometimes it’s hereditary, sometimes it’s a plutocracy, sometimes it’s the members of the Politburo.

 

[on_the_hill]

Where do you get the information they are or were cocaine addicts?!

I didn’t want to believe it, either. But a quick Google shows that Harry had been sent to rehab in 2002. Whether he was an “addict” is not revealed in the articles I saw. Still, that was 15 years ago(!)

Megan reportedly engaged in underage beer drinking while she was in college, and used a fake ID. Not that I’d want my daughters doing these things, but I don’t think they disqualify a person from being “good.”

As a Catholic, I believe in redemption.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Thanks for the info. I agree with your opinion on Megan.

 

[PickyPicky]

Cannabis and booze, wasn’t it, though, with Harry rather than cocaine?

 

[Lou2U]

Here’s an article I found about it, as Picky says, not cocaine, but cannabis: Prince Harry taken to drink and drugs rehab clinic | UK news | The Guardian. Taken to rehab for a day.

 

[Adrian_Liam]

If Meghan was ever Catholic she wouldn’t be allowed to even marry in. But yes you are correct. Meghan was not Catholic but went to a Catholic school she was episcopal according to the press.

 

[Wannano]

Do you deny that those granted Heaven is because of Faith in Christ? That God established the Christian religion so that we may become part of Christ’s Body, become brothers of our Lord, and be adopted as sons of the Father?

Although this is off topic I feel it is worth responding to.

This is your original statement: A non-Catholic who goes to heaven doesn’t get it because of their religion but in spite of it.

My response to your statement: That will be true for any human being granted entrance into heaven.

So from my response you ask the questions above in your post. 1. Do you deny that those granted heaven is because of faith in Christ? I find your question awkward but will state that faith in Christ is fundamental to Christianity.
2. That God established the Christian religion so that we may become part of Christ’s body, become brothers of our Lord, and be adopted as sons of the Father?
Religion has always been man’s attempt to reach God. In that sense I do not feel it was God’s intent to establish a new Religion. Jesus is God coming to us and being one of us. He now resides in the hearts of men, in a personal relationship that only requires submission and obedience to the Holy Spirit. That gives us freedom from “religion” or a whole set of man made rules. He gives us a circumcised heart and will live His life in us if we truly receive Him. So yes, a person who is granted entrance into Heaven doesn’t get there because of their religion but in spite of it.

 

[PickyPicky]

If you mean the law would prevent her from marrying Harry if she was a Catholic, not so. Marriage to a Catholic would not be new for a member of the Royal Family. Prince Michael of Kent for example.

 

[ConstantLearner]

If Meghan was ever Catholic she wouldn’t be allowed to even marry in. But yes you are correct. Meghan was not Catholic but went to a Catholic school she was episcopal according to the press.

This has been said before, but apparently, people keep missing it:

“Interestingly, it was only last year that the rules also changed to permit a senior member of the royal family to wed a Catholic.” So even had Meghan been Catholic, it would not have been a barrier to marriage to Harry. William could have married a Catholic as long as he didn’t embrace Catholicism.

Why Being Catholic Is a Bigger Issue for Royal Marriages Than Being Divorced

At any rate, Meghan went to a Catholic school, but she is not Catholic. She will be baptized and confirmed in the Anglican Church.

 

[PickyPicky]

Actually even before the recent change in the law members of the Royal Family have been able to marry Catholics. The downside was that such a marriage put them out of the line of succession. Several members of the family nonetheless married Catholics. The recent change in the law reinstated them in the line of succession.

 

[ConstantLearner]

I’ve never smoked - anything - or had more than one glass of wine with dinner - on occasion - after age twenty-one. I never saw the fun in “getting stoned” or drunk and sick. So, I never did it.