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sifted_1
Guest
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Catholicforlife
Guest
I am 100%, unapologeticly, pro life. If some one were to make a pro death statement to me, they will get an ear full. There are times to be polite but when it comes to defending the unborn, you always have to take a firm stand. Don’t back down from this guy. He lacks understanding and you need to fill him in!
Perhaps the Holy Spirit is calling you to do something with the pro life ministry at your church. Respect for Life Sunday is 10/3. Your “friend” will not like that I am sure. What kind of pro life activity do you have in your parish? Maybe it is time to take it up a notch
D
Perhaps the Holy Spirit is calling you to do something with the pro life ministry at your church. Respect for Life Sunday is 10/3. Your “friend” will not like that I am sure. What kind of pro life activity do you have in your parish? Maybe it is time to take it up a notch
D
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Viki59
Guest
Michelle Therese, you have a lot of good advice posted here, but it looks as if it might be hard to put it in practice due to your tradition of not arguing with anyone older than you. I can see how that would be hard to go against. Probably the aged man is not aware of your tradition, because if he is, it would be extremely rude for him to be “baiting” you when he knows you can’t respond without rudeness. Perhaps you could say something like, “You may not be aware that in my culture younger people are not allowed to argue with their elders. So I feel very uncomfortable disagreeing with you, but I must tell you that if it were permitted I would express strong disagreement with anyone who holds pro-abortion views.” Then he will no doubt try and argue with you, but you could at that point keep silent, if you wanted to.
But you are apparently a university student, and a citizen of the US. You might want to sharpen your assertiveness skills, because you will need them. Age does not always produce wisdom, and if somebody wants to discuss a topic, it’s not rude to oblige them as long as you remain civil.
Good luck and God bless.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
read 1st Timothy on the wisdom of the young, and don’t let false “respect” for elders keep you from speaking the truth - respectfully, logically, and unemotionally of course.
But there is something you are going to have to get used to if you plan to stay Catholic for long. This is a big church, they don’t call it universal for nothing, it has been around a long time, they don’t call it apostolic for nothing, it teaches the truth and is the Body of Christ on earth, they don’t call it holy for nothing, and its teaching is unchanging being the revelation of God perfected in the life death and Resurrection of his son - they don’t call it One for nothing.
But this means there are all kinds of Catholics, who have come from all kinds of places on all kinds of journeys, and NOBODY, not the pope, not the latin mass geeks, not the democrats, not the pro-lifers, not the women-priest harridans, not the liturgical dancers, not the EWTN viewers – nobody is perfectly faithful, obedient, holy, devoted, docile, humble, and orthodox. We are all learning and growing, and some of us have to go through a period of sounding and acting mighty awful before we get there.
But we get there together, that is why we are a Church, worshipping together, our unity being a fruit of the Eucharist, and our unity perfected only as we cooperate with the grace of the Eucharist. If we weren’t in this together we would all be outside communing with nature and navel-gazing.
If you are looking for daily Mass as a social club of like-minded individuals, you are always going to be disappointed and frustrated. You are there to help build up the faith of others–and they are there to build you up, all of them, even the contrary, mean-spirited ones. You can’t pick and choose who you are going to associate with in this Church, we are a family, you have to love, forgive, fraternally correct, challenge, and evangelize, but you cannot exclude and disrespect. Nor will you find peace by parish-hopping hoping to find your comfort zone.
But there is something you are going to have to get used to if you plan to stay Catholic for long. This is a big church, they don’t call it universal for nothing, it has been around a long time, they don’t call it apostolic for nothing, it teaches the truth and is the Body of Christ on earth, they don’t call it holy for nothing, and its teaching is unchanging being the revelation of God perfected in the life death and Resurrection of his son - they don’t call it One for nothing.
But this means there are all kinds of Catholics, who have come from all kinds of places on all kinds of journeys, and NOBODY, not the pope, not the latin mass geeks, not the democrats, not the pro-lifers, not the women-priest harridans, not the liturgical dancers, not the EWTN viewers – nobody is perfectly faithful, obedient, holy, devoted, docile, humble, and orthodox. We are all learning and growing, and some of us have to go through a period of sounding and acting mighty awful before we get there.
But we get there together, that is why we are a Church, worshipping together, our unity being a fruit of the Eucharist, and our unity perfected only as we cooperate with the grace of the Eucharist. If we weren’t in this together we would all be outside communing with nature and navel-gazing.
If you are looking for daily Mass as a social club of like-minded individuals, you are always going to be disappointed and frustrated. You are there to help build up the faith of others–and they are there to build you up, all of them, even the contrary, mean-spirited ones. You can’t pick and choose who you are going to associate with in this Church, we are a family, you have to love, forgive, fraternally correct, challenge, and evangelize, but you cannot exclude and disrespect. Nor will you find peace by parish-hopping hoping to find your comfort zone.
J
JW10631
Guest
Pam,
Right to choose?
Right to choose WHAT???
To kill a baby! Oh, that’s something to be proud of.
Then, you go off into tangents - Iraq, tax cuts, etc.
Respectrully, you sould like you go to the Church of Howard Dean.
Right to choose?
Right to choose WHAT???
To kill a baby! Oh, that’s something to be proud of.
Then, you go off into tangents - Iraq, tax cuts, etc.
Respectrully, you sould like you go to the Church of Howard Dean.
R
River_Glorious
Guest
Puzzleannie, Well said! I’m going to print this off as a reminder to myself, since I am easily frustrated by my liberal diocese. As I was reminded yesterday by Ralph Martin on The Choices We Face, we strive to be holy, but then when things are sent our way that challenge us on our journey, we run the other way rather than using them to bring us closer to our Lord.
puzzleannie:
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legeorge
Guest
Are you sure you don’t go to my Church??? 
I have encountered a frustratingly similar situation in my own parish. That is why I now attend daily Mass at a local Church that celebrates the Tridentine Mass. However, I have become the pro-life representative for my parish. The pastor can’t possibly argue with pro-life activities, and I put up posters and post things in the bulletins and get the people as focused on pro-life things as I can. Granted, I sometimes push the envelope a bit. My pastor isn’t exactly a big pro-lifer, but he tolerates my zeal. Since October is Respect Life month, see if you can get something going in your parish. Then, you can get your point across without directly confronting your elders. (although I have no such problems 
) Good Luck, and let it be known that YOU ARE NOT ALONE!! Even though it feels that way, ALOT!! 
I have encountered a frustratingly similar situation in my own parish. That is why I now attend daily Mass at a local Church that celebrates the Tridentine Mass. However, I have become the pro-life representative for my parish. The pastor can’t possibly argue with pro-life activities, and I put up posters and post things in the bulletins and get the people as focused on pro-life things as I can. Granted, I sometimes push the envelope a bit. My pastor isn’t exactly a big pro-lifer, but he tolerates my zeal. Since October is Respect Life month, see if you can get something going in your parish. Then, you can get your point across without directly confronting your elders. (although I have no such problems ) Good Luck, and let it be known that YOU ARE NOT ALONE!! Even though it feels that way, ALOT!!
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buffalo
Guest
Whoaaaa! Not so fast. The right to choose - is the right a woman wants to choose to murder her unborn baby.
You are not applying “proportionate” reasoning correctly.
Kerry - pro-death
Bush - pro-life
In this case you must vote for Bush.
Kerry - pro-death
Joe Opponent - pro-death and will vote for legislation that will kill all seniors over 70 and others with low IQ’s
In this case you must vote for Kerry - not because he supports abortion , but he will do less harm.
Kerry - pro-death
Bush - pro-life
Joe Third Party - pro-life with no real chance to win, and your vote would be a net vote for Kerry.
In this case you must vote for Bush as he would do less harm.
This is the correct application of “proportionate” reasons. With such a critical issue as life being central to this election social justice reasons cannot be a proportionate reason.
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Sparky
Guest
carol marie:
These people are no longer Catholic. They are rebelling against church teaching. When you do that you cease to be Catholic and become Protestant.
Now - I know there are Protestants who agree with the church on abortion. And that’s great. That means they are more in union with Church teaching than those who claim to be Catholic. This is not saying that all Protestants are pro-abortion. There are many, probably just as many as there are Catholics (for instance if you count in all the high-church protestants such as Methodists, Anglicans, etc…) you’re bound to find as many of them who are pro-abortion. But that’s not what LoneVoice is saying.
LoneVoice is saying that for a Christian to disagree with Catholic teaching is to be Protestant.
Ergo, LoneVoice is correct. Those who are pro-abortion are at odds with church teaching, they are no longer Catholic but Protestant.
Hope that makes sense.
–Ann
Actually, it is true.
These people are no longer Catholic. They are rebelling against church teaching. When you do that you cease to be Catholic and become Protestant.
Now - I know there are Protestants who agree with the church on abortion. And that’s great. That means they are more in union with Church teaching than those who claim to be Catholic. This is not saying that all Protestants are pro-abortion. There are many, probably just as many as there are Catholics (for instance if you count in all the high-church protestants such as Methodists, Anglicans, etc…) you’re bound to find as many of them who are pro-abortion. But that’s not what LoneVoice is saying.
LoneVoice is saying that for a Christian to disagree with Catholic teaching is to be Protestant.
Ergo, LoneVoice is correct. Those who are pro-abortion are at odds with church teaching, they are no longer Catholic but Protestant.
Hope that makes sense.
–Ann
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Magster
Guest
Sometimes it is necessary to go back to the basis, especially when dealing with those who are pro-abortion, and remind them that the Catholic church teaches that human life is sacred and for that reason alone, only God has dominion over human life. Specifically, paragraph 2258 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church provides:
“Human life is sacred because it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstances claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being.”
People will often use compassion for the pregnant mother to justify the defense of abortion, often citing financial difficulty, physical imposition, interference with education, etc. However, nowhere within the Catechism are finances, physical comfort or education and a better “quality of life” referred to as “sacred.” The distinction between protecting what is sacred, even at the cost of some creature comforts, is integral to living a Catholic life.
If the pro-abortionists insist on some scientific reason, you can inform them that science shows that from the moment of conception, the fertilized egg is human life. Human DNA is present from the moment of conception. Nothing more needs to be added to allow the child to develop. Further, if the fertilized egg were not living, and therefore, not alive, it would not proceed to develop but, rather, would decay. Therefore, any attempt to argue on a scientific basis that the unborn child is not human fails as intellectually dishonest.
I hope this helps!
“Human life is sacred because it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstances claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being.”
People will often use compassion for the pregnant mother to justify the defense of abortion, often citing financial difficulty, physical imposition, interference with education, etc. However, nowhere within the Catechism are finances, physical comfort or education and a better “quality of life” referred to as “sacred.” The distinction between protecting what is sacred, even at the cost of some creature comforts, is integral to living a Catholic life.
If the pro-abortionists insist on some scientific reason, you can inform them that science shows that from the moment of conception, the fertilized egg is human life. Human DNA is present from the moment of conception. Nothing more needs to be added to allow the child to develop. Further, if the fertilized egg were not living, and therefore, not alive, it would not proceed to develop but, rather, would decay. Therefore, any attempt to argue on a scientific basis that the unborn child is not human fails as intellectually dishonest.
I hope this helps!
R
Rosalinda
Guest
Therese: Well do I understand your shock as I had a similar experience recently with the fellow in my church who reads the epistle every Sunday. He had been goading me for sometime as I am known in town for my letters to the editor. The man supports abortion because it makes economic sense and he feels fine with euthanasia too. I went to the Internet and printed up some graphic photos - one of which I held up to his face the following Sunday and asked him to dare and repeat to me, “Well, we don’t believe abortion kills children.” He was flabbergasted. Unfortunately, my parish priest who is pro-life decided against posting up the photographs on his bulletin board. It is fine to pray at every Mass to end abortion but obviously the parishionners are blind to the harsh reality abortion is. Maybe it’s time for our priests to explain the whole grizzly dismembering procedure abortion is so that Catholics can own up to this reality once and for all. How many of us, once this holocaust ends will repeat just like the Germans before us,“We had no idea”? Pro-lifers have been too polite, too nice and too soft spoken for too long. If my letters to the editor ferreted out another Judas than that was an opportunity of grace. Believe you me that fellow shakes in his boots everytime he sees me and so he should for in my baptism I was called to be a prophet. These are times in sore need of prophets not afraid to speak the truth. By the way, he is ‘my elder’ too.
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martino
Guest
First of all I would not be going to have coffee with a group like that! This guy knows what the Church teaches, you have no obligation to enter into some kind of argument with him. I would continue going to daily Mass but discontinue your extra ciricular association with him and the entire group.
The cross can be a lonely place, just ask Jesus!
The cross can be a lonely place, just ask Jesus!
H
Hopeful
Guest
Michelle Therese,
One of the 7 Spiritual Works of Mercy is to Admonish the Sinner. I don’t think it is wrong to engage this pro-abortion catholic in a discussion. It may be you were sent there to open some minds!! Grant it, older people are often set in their thinking. Pray for wisdom. God will send you the right words.
God Bless You!
I’m proud of you!! You have courage and conviction. :bowdown:
-----Hopeful
One of the 7 Spiritual Works of Mercy is to Admonish the Sinner. I don’t think it is wrong to engage this pro-abortion catholic in a discussion. It may be you were sent there to open some minds!! Grant it, older people are often set in their thinking. Pray for wisdom. God will send you the right words.
God Bless You!
I’m proud of you!! You have courage and conviction. :bowdown:
-----Hopeful
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PamA
Guest
I repeat…what has Bush done for you. Has he even tried to stop abortion? Why do you attribute all these fantastic, moral qualities to him? He and the republicans are taking advantage of your morality to stay in power…but THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING TO STOP ABORTION…where is the attempted legilation? He only SAYS he’s anti-abortion…but he and his republican hypocrites do NOTHING to stop it. Sorry. I agree with you about abortion, but I don’t believe for a moment that anybody on the republican, or the democratic side is willing to really fight, I mean really fight, to preserve life. What galls me is that at least democrats will legislate to take care of children…Bush and his side say they are anti-abortion, but do absolutely nothing to provide a safety net for those babies (most of whom are NOT wanted) once they are born. Sorry, you cannot have it two ways.
Now, what about the Bishops and the catholic hospitals providing abortion services? This is a very difficult issue…and calling me a nazi sympathizer only shows me your Christianity is not all you would like to believe it is.
P
PamA
Guest
My heart and my eyes are open…I repeat,** what has Bush done to change the abortion landscape? **
Yes, the catholic hospitals are in mortal sin (as are the doctors, nurses, and everybody else who has any contact with the procedure (my son is a doctor, so this issue is closer to my heart than you realize.) However, is it enough for the Bishops and medical personnel to be in mortal sin…awaiting God’s judgment…or should we not require the Bishops who wrote these sly, sneaky, irreconcilably un-catholic and disgusting “guidelines” going to be held accountable? Kerry does not compel anyone to have an abortion. But, as I see it, the Bishops are forcing doctors and other medical personnel to perform abortions…
they are not just in mortal sin…they are foisting abortions on innocent people who must work for a living, and believed that working at a catholic hospital would protect them from having to deal with this issue.
So, this is not quite like bad priests abusing children…this is forcing innocent people to commit the mass murder you (correctly) abhor.
Just don’t let Bush take your vote when he is as dishonest as the Bishops.
A
Augustine
Guest
Are they? Really? Banning partial-birth abortion changes nothing in the abortion landscape? If it didn’t, then why did Kerry vote against it? If it didn’t, then why is it being challenged in courts by liberals of all walks of life?
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Magster
Guest
President Bush’s best opportunity to change the abortion landscape will come when he is (hopefully) re-elected and is able to nominate some new Supreme Court Justices who will render decisions either directly overturning Roe v. Wade or placing barriers to obtaining abortions. It is difficult to counter judge-made law, such as Roe v. Wade with legislation.
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Scott_Waddell
Guest
I am amazed at these constant attempts to unsell us from voting for Bush. He may not fight as hard as he should on abortion, but the moral difference between him and someone who promotes it at every turn is astronomical. The only thing that explains it is rather tawdry attempts to split the Bush vote, or get us to stay home. The piling on is so out of proprtion that I suspect supernatural forces. Something evil gives speed to these creatures. Sets its will against us.
Scott
Scott
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Brad
Guest
Scott Waddell:
Kerry has now come out heavily promoting embryonic stem cell research. He supports same-sex unions/marriages. He supports euthanasia. He pours money into abortion mills world-wide.
The argument that Bush’s positions and actions on moral issues have the same or worse moral equivalency as Kerry’s positions is either an incredibly uninformed argument or one filled with deceipt.
This famous argument around here that Bush has done nothing to lessen abortion in this country is a nothing more than a distraction ploy from someone with a hidden agenda.I am amazed at these constant attempts to unsell us from voting for Bush. He may not fight as hard as he should on abortion, but the moral difference between him and someone who promotes it at every turn is astronomical. The only thing that explains it is rather tawdry attempts to split the Bush vote, or get us to stay home. The piling on is so out of proprtion that I suspect supernatural forces. Something evil gives speed to these creatures. Sets its will against us.
Scott
Kerry has now come out heavily promoting embryonic stem cell research. He supports same-sex unions/marriages. He supports euthanasia. He pours money into abortion mills world-wide.
The argument that Bush’s positions and actions on moral issues have the same or worse moral equivalency as Kerry’s positions is either an incredibly uninformed argument or one filled with deceipt.
P
PLAL
Guest
John Kerry stated he believes LIFE BEGINS at CONCEPTION.
He states he is personally against ABORTION but feels he should NOT impose his beliefs on others. Kerry said he therefore will not interfere with anothers “choice” whether or not to have (an) ABORTION.
Let’s substitute the other words for ABORTION like…
-What would Black People think of this statement if Kerry substituted the word SLAVERY for Abortion??
-What would the Jews think of Kerry’s statement if he substituted the word THE **HOLOCOST **for Abortion??
-What would the rest of the world think if Kerry substituted the word TERRORISM for Abortion??
-Let’s call Abortion what it really is and substitute the word MURDER for Abortion!
Here’s a few other words you can substitute: Euthanasia, Infanticide, Polygamy, Pedaphilia, Laws & Rules. Can you think of other words?
Let’s face it – Kerry has no guts, cannot stand by his moral beliefs and has no character!!
He states he is personally against ABORTION but feels he should NOT impose his beliefs on others. Kerry said he therefore will not interfere with anothers “choice” whether or not to have (an) ABORTION.
Let’s substitute the other words for ABORTION like…
-What would Black People think of this statement if Kerry substituted the word SLAVERY for Abortion??
-What would the Jews think of Kerry’s statement if he substituted the word THE **HOLOCOST **for Abortion??
-What would the rest of the world think if Kerry substituted the word TERRORISM for Abortion??
-Let’s call Abortion what it really is and substitute the word MURDER for Abortion!
Here’s a few other words you can substitute: Euthanasia, Infanticide, Polygamy, Pedaphilia, Laws & Rules. Can you think of other words?
Let’s face it – Kerry has no guts, cannot stand by his moral beliefs and has no character!!
- Status