Pro choice but not Pro Abortion

[kage_ar]

People have a different opinion on when they believe when it is actually a human being. They do not see it as killing a human with in the first trimester.

That, my friend, is the crux of the matter. Truth is truth.

What is a human being? Exactly what is something the day before “it” becomes human? Is it a porcupine? A racecar? Is it a carrot? Is it a lump of coal?

If this non-human something turns into a human, what day does “it” turn into a human? What is “it” the day before? What about an hour before? What about a millisecond before? What is “it” then?

I want to make it clear that I am taking everyones opinion to heart and am using this topic to learn from.

The most important thing to take into consideration is what does God teach on the matter? Everyone on this board could disagree with what God says, everyone on the planet could disagree with God, and God would still be right.

If you’re against abortion, then when is it right to kill someone? Are you for the war? Many innocent people have died. Are you for the right to own a gun? Guns are designed to kill, pistols are made for killing humans.

You have gone from the original discussion and are tossing out red herrings. For real debate to be productive, it is important to stay on one topic. You might want to start other threads to discuss/debate these topics.

People will kill one another based on their choice. If they want to kill and are willing to, they will whether our law permits it.

Law abiding people will obey the law. Criminals will break the law.

Slavery? I hope you take your opinion to heart and make sure everything you buy was not made by child slaves in china. Where is the outcry for this? People say its wrong, but continue to support companies that have been sued for this (wal-mart).

I believe that it is morally wrong for one human being to own another human being. To the best of my human ability I will not support people who own slaves.

Your claims against Wal Mart, could you please post links to proof that Wal Mart has been sued because of child slaves in China? If you cannot back up your claim, good debate requires you to retract.

I believe all of these choices come with personal responsibility.

Exactly.

 

[thelocke]

That, my friend, is the crux of the matter. Truth is truth.
What is a human being? Exactly what is something the day before “it” becomes human? Is it a porcupine? A racecar? Is it a carrot? Is it a lump of coal?

Opinions differ. That was my point.

If this non-human something turns into a human, what day does “it” turn into a human? What is “it” the day before? What about an hour before? What about a millisecond before? What is “it” then?

Not thinking or breathing? Lets not forget I dont PERSONALLY believe abortion is ok.

The most important thing to take into consideration is what does God teach on the matter? Everyone on this board could disagree with what God says, everyone on the planet could disagree with God, and God would still be right.

I believe God is right. Some believe he doesn’t exist.

You have gone from the original discussion and are tossing out red herrings. For real debate to be productive, it is important to stay on one topic. You might want to start other threads to discuss/debate these topics.

You compared what I said to things that were off topic. I did the same thing to you.

Well duh. It was just an example.

Your claims against Wal Mart, could you please post links to proof that Wal Mart has been sued because of child slaves in China? If you cannot back up your claim, good debate requires you to retract

There were headlines about this a few years back, so to find the actual article I read would be almost impossible. google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&hs=usM&q=walmart+chinese+child+labor&btnG=Search Take your pick. Im not trying to just call out wal-mart. I was just suggesting how current society in america is effected by some sort of slavery. I believe Nike was also accused of this practice. Im not telling you to ban these companies, you can look into it your self and decide. It was just used to help this discussion.

 

[1ke]

but who is to say everyone has my beliefs?

Again, let’s review the purpose of the law. The role of law is to protect society and its members, especially the weak and defenseless. The law supports the common good. Abortion is bad for society. It kills children, destroys women’s lives, harms families, and weakens society.

Killing children should not be legal, it should not be held up by society as a good.

 

[1ke]

People have a different opinion on when they believe when it is actually a human being. They do not see it as killing a human with in the first trimester.

I want to make it clear that I am taking everyones opinion to heart and am using this topic to learn from.

If you’re against abortion, then when is it right to kill someone? Are you for the war? Many innocent people have died. Are you for the right to own a gun? Guns are designed to kill, pistols are made for killing humans.

People (and countries) can defend themselves against an unjust aggressor. When a person becomes an aggressor, they cease to be innocent.

People will kill one another based on their choice. If they want to kill and are willing to, they will whether our law permits it.

Of course they will. They will also rape, rob banks, and drink while driving. Does that mean we should not have laws against murder, rape, theft, or drunken driving?

The law does not support murder, condone it, make it easy to commit, or give money to people who commit murder (as the government does to Planned Parenthood). Instead, the law states clearly that if you commit this crime you will be held accountable and face consequences.

Abortion does not deserve the protection of the law. Baby killing is wrong.

I believe all of these choices come with personal responsibility.

Then let’s not have any laws and leave every choice up to personal responsibility. I’m sure people will do the right thing.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Any opinion on this?

Yes. I disagree entirely. What is it about abortion that makes you personally against it? Is it taking a life? If it’s just a random collection of goop, then you shouldn’t have any problem with it either. If you search your soul, you’ll likely find that that the reason you’re against it, is the very same reason that a pro-life activist is against it. Because it’s wrong, and it is the taking of an innocent human life. (For convenience in 80+ percent of cases, no less). If you just look inside to find why you’re personally opposed, then you won’t be very far at all from figuring out why pro-life people are against it being a “choice” that a woman makes. Wrong is wrong. We don’t allow parents to shoot their 4 month old premie, correct? Because it has been born, and has a shot at a life, and the life is protected by the law. Yet, if that same 4 month old baby is crushed and vacuumed out of a woman’s uterus, we find no fault in this? That’s just a choice that a woman can make? Please pray about this, and think deeply. I believe that God will help you to see, if you only ask, and allow the answer to be what the answer is, even if it hurts.

 

[Belgarion]

Quite frankly, it does not matter what everyone else thinks is true.
Sorry.

They base the idea of abortion off of inaccurate “facts”
Did you know that?
I took AP biology and read in the textbook about abortion. It was discussing the beginning of life. Yet, they skewed away from the ACTUAL issue and went for a completely unrelated point, which was only “related” because of the term “beginning fo life”

They argued that all life is a fleeting continuation of the first living organism…yeah…

Let’s rephrase our point, shall we?
when does and individual’s life begin?
Medical textbooks say that and individual’s life begins at conception…HA!

Its funny how everyone ignores this. They also ignore the fact that unborn babies have unique DNA at 8 weeks, as well as functioning organs. The infant is just a small person.

I remember arguing with a guy who went to public school. He told me that a embryo of a human was no different than that of another creature. Basically, its only human because of its mother…WHAT?
Wrong. They have unique DNA, we’ve established that. You couldn’t put a human embryo into an animal, and have it come out an animal.
This just shows you how far the public is manipulated by places like PLanned Parenthood.

 

[thelocke]

Im off to work and I will get back to this. Thanks everyone for the replies. I have read some pretty good responses that I will get back to! This so far has helped me think deeper into what I had believed, and I think I have to agree with what most of you are saying.

 

[surfinpure]

If I bring a guest into my home, then decide the guest is an inconvenience to me, I may not murder him.

If I bring a child into my body and decide the child is an inconvenience, neither may I murder the child.

And neither do I support any woman’s license to murder the guest in her womb.

 

[briang72]

I would never ask for someone to get an abortion (if it came to it, I would even take care of the baby my self), but I still want other people to have that choice.

Any opinion on this?

So you would have been okay with your own mother having that choice and choosing to abort you?

By saying you want other people to have a choice means that you are pro-abortion. You are saying “Its okay for you to do that…”. Even if you add “…but it isn’t okay for me” onto the end of that statement, you have still shown your support of abortion.

If you believe that life begins at conception, then how would this be any different then saying that “I would never kill my dependent children, but I want other people to have that choice”?

 

[SirOscar]

One cannot be pro-choice, and be against abortion. The two go hand-in hand.

Pro Choice is all about abortion. It is the groundwork of being pro-choice. When one says they are pro choice they are admitting to themselves and the public that they think abortion should remain legal, and that every woman who becomes pregnant has a choice to either offer life or death to their unborn.

It is great to hear that you would never have an abortion. Stand up for what you believe in. Apply that same standard to all human kind because you know in your heart it is wrong. I know its hard when the moral majority state otherwise.

Abortion is taking the life of a human being and should not be legal.

One is either Pro Life or Pro choice.

The creation of life is a beautiful experience. It is truly a gift.

 

[puzzleannie]

It wasTo sum up what I was thinking last night; I would never want for anyone to get an abortion, but who is to say everyone has my beliefs?

obviously you have not read any of the answers. apply this loose and sloppy thinking to any other moral and legal issue:
I personally don’t believe in killing old people because they are old, it’s expensive to care for them and they smell funny, but hey I support your right to hold a pillow over granny’s face so you can collect on her insurance, because of course, you don’t share my beliefs and I can’t impose my standards on you.

 

[marietta]

** thelocke:**

For a real roller coaster ride on this topic, perhaps you’d like to refer to these recent posts - you will find 1268 posts which apply to your subject. You may find them here:

Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Social Justice:

“Pro-Choice folks, what are your reasons for supporting abortion?”

The thread was closed June 7, 2008.

Good luck supporting your position!

marietta

 

[thelocke]

I have re-thought the way I look at this. I guess I was looking for a way to not inflict all of my personal beliefs on to others. I don’t think killing a fetus is ok, and I was suggesting I was not taking responsibility of others choosing to take the route. I figured in a way they would have to pay a price for what they did in their life, and I did not have to be the one to make that choice for them.

I read every single post btw, so the few comments that mention I didn’t read, this statement is for you. Everything said makes sense.

 

[AmberDale]

I’m pro-choice… Yeah hear me out.

I believer that people have the right to choose whether they have intercourse or not. If a woman becomes pregnant, after choosing to have itercourse, then I believe it’s no longer her choice. She is no longer just thinking about herself, there is another human being that needs it’s voice heard before anyone should be able to make decisions for it.

So I’m a pro-choiceLIFER… does that make sense?

I’m really just pro-LIFE, I just believe it shouldn’t be our choice to kill anyone.

 

[AmberDale]

I don’t think killing a **fetus **is ok,

Try calling him/her a baby. It will change perspective

 

[marietta]

puzzleannie:

I personally don’t believe in killing old people because they are old, it’s expensive to care for them and they smell funny, but hey I support your right to consider holding a pillow over granny’s face so you can collect on her insurance, **and choosing not to. ** You *may not *share my beliefs. I won’t impose my standards on you.

marietta

 

[PaulinVA]

thelocke, here in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave, there is a long tradition of inflicting our views on other people.

It’s called the democratic process. I hold a view, and I try to get as many people to agree with me as I can and enact a law/ordinance, whatever, enforcing it.

The ability to obtain an abortion is possible because pro-choice people have made that happen by defeating laws restricting abortion.
Even though most people would never obtain an abortion, because they believe it is wrong, they refuse to fight abortion because it imposes “their beliefs” on others.

Well, if you believe abortion is killing an unborn baby, how can you NOT fight to end it?

 

[surfinpure]

thelocke, here in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave, there is a long tradition of inflicting our views on other people.

It’s called the democratic process. I hold a view, and I try to get as many people to agree with me as I can and enact a law/ordinance, whatever, enforcing it.

The ability to obtain an abortion is possible because pro-choice people have made that happen by defeating laws restricting abortion.
Even though most people would never obtain an abortion, because they believe it is wrong, they refuse to fight abortion because it imposes “their beliefs” on others.

Well, if you believe abortion is killing an unborn baby, how can you NOT fight to end it?

Very good post, Paul.

 

[KephasAugustine]

thelocke, here in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave, there is a long tradition of inflicting our views on other people.

It’s called the democratic process. I hold a view, and I try to get as many people to agree with me as I can and enact a law/ordinance, whatever, enforcing it.

The ability to obtain an abortion is possible because pro-choice people have made that happen by defeating laws restricting abortion.
Even though most people would never obtain an abortion, because they believe it is wrong, they refuse to fight abortion because it imposes “their beliefs” on others.

Well, if you believe abortion is killing an unborn baby, how can you NOT fight to end it?

:clapping:

 

[Pong]

Well, if you believe abortion is killing an unborn baby, how can you NOT fight to end it?

Easy. Not everyone believs that abortion is killing an “unborn baby.” There are many, like me, who see abortion as nothing more than the elimination of a foetus and no amount of sentimental lanuage will persuade us otherwise. My time on these forums have actually confirmed my beliefs about abortion and also my findings that the so-called “pro-life” group is doing nothing more than repeating the same tired cliches and arguments.