Pro choice but not Pro Abortion

[briang72]

briang72:

“Originally Posted by jwashu
‘Secondly, Yes you can be Pro-Choice and NOT Pro-Abortion, no one is Pro-Abortion (well almost no one). The issue is a woman’s right to choose.’”

Yes, this is absolutely correct. Neither you nor I nor anyone on this forum knows with certainty what the woman will choose. Strip her of the right to choose and you strip her of God-given free will. If her choice leads her to Purgatory or Hell, as you might imagine it could, she alone is accountable to God. I do not believe that you or I or anyone on this forum will be asked to escort her to Purgatory or Hell due to complicity

Pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion. Pro-abortion attempts to sway women to abort. Pro-choice allows women to decide for themselves.

…

marietta

Pro-Abortion: Favoring or supporting legalized abortion.

Pro-Choice: Favoring or supporting the legal right of women and girls to choose *whether or *not ** to continue a pregnancy to term.

You are changing the meaning of pro-abortion in your statement. Pro-abortion does not mean to encourage abortion, it simply means to support its legal availability.

When I read the definition of pro-choice, it is undoubtedly clear that you cannot be pro-choice without being pro-abortion. By being pro-choice, you support the legalization of abortion, which in turn means that you are pro-abortion.

The free will of a woman is not in question here. Just because I could choose to drive 80 mph in a 60 mph zone, doesn’t mean the law supports it. Unfortunately, even if abortion is made illegal in this country, the woman will still be able to choose whether or not to continue her pregnancy.

 

[estesbob]

Pro-Abortion: Favoring or supporting legalized abortion.

Pro-Choice: Favoring or supporting the legal right of women and girls to choose *whether or **not ***to continue a pregnancy to term.

.

A distinction without a difference. What results when , as you euphemistically put it the mother “chooses” not to carry her “pregnancy to term”?

The child still ends up dead and you still support its death regardless of what you want to label yourself. Someday you are going to wake up and realize the abject horror you support.

 

[briang72]

A distinction without a difference. What results when , as you euphemistically put it the mother “chooses” not to carry her “pregnancy to term”?

The child still ends up dead and you still support its death regardless of what you want to label yourself. Someday you are going to wake up and realize the abject horror you support.

I should add that the definitions of pro-abortion and pro-choice that are posted in my previous post are not my own. They are from a Google search that returned results from the American Heritage dictionary. I actually looked up pro-abortion and pro-choice on Merriam-Webster website, and the results are even more interesting:
Merriam-Webster:

pro-abortion
One entry found.

proabortion

Main Entry: pro·abor·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌprō-ə-ˈbȯr-shən\
Function: adjective
Date: 1972
: favoring the legalization of abortion

---

pro-choice
One entry found.

pro-choice

Main Entry: pro–choice
Pronunciation: (ˌ)prō-ˈchȯis\
Function: adjective
Date: 1975
**: favoring the legalization of abortion **

sources:
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pro-abortion
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pro-choice

According to Merriam-Webster, not briang72, they are one in the same.

 

[estesbob]

I should add that the definitions of pro-abortion and pro-choice that are posted in my previous post are not my own. They are from a Google search that returned results from the American Heritage dictionary. I actually looked up pro-abortion and pro-choice on Merriam-Webster website, and the results are even more interesting:

According to Merriam-Webster, not briang72, they are one in the same.

Sorry-I thought I was responding to marietta! You and I are in total agreement!

 

[rpp]

Easy. Not everyone believs that abortion is killing an “unborn baby.” There are many, like me, who see abortion as nothing more than the elimination of a foetus and no amount of sentimental lanuage will persuade us otherwise. My time on these forums have actually confirmed my beliefs about abortion and also my findings that the so-called “pro-life” group is doing nothing more than repeating the same tired cliches and arguments.

Pong, your profile says your religion is “Catholic”. This post clearly demonstrates that what you list in your profile is incorrect. You cannot hold this view and be Catholic at the same time. Please correct your profile. Better yet, please abandon this self-destructive belief, stop supporting mass murder and return to the Church.

And while you mull this over, for the sake of your immortal soul, please refrain from receiving Holy Communion until you believe what the Church teaches.

 

[Pong]

rpp- I will continue to list my religious affiliation as Catholic and there isn’t a thing you can do about it. I will also continue to hold these same beliefs regardning abortion and not lose a minute of sleep over it. My beliefs are neither self-destructive, nor do they support “mass murder” as you call it. I will never see abortion as muder so I would advise you to stop wasting your breath.

 

[duskyjewel]

Pong, now that you’re back, do you have any counterarguments to the ones I and many others have given as to why you’re wrong? Do you have answers to the questions we asked you?

 

[Calliso]

You know I still disagree that being prochoice automatically means that you are proabortion. Like the defination says Proabortions means FAVORING and supporting abortion. While prochoice simply means you support a womans right to choose. Many prochoice people including myself actually favor that a woman DOES NOT choose abortion. Now can one be prochoice but be proabortion in the sense that they think that women should have a choice but they prefer that they choose an abortion? Yes…but then there cuold also be proabortion people that are not prochoice in the sense that they do not think women should have a choice. Fortunately there isn;t many of those type of people.

 

[duskyjewel]

support = being in favor of, encouraging

right to choose = having either option completely and freely available

Therefore, pro-choice means you are in favor of a woman being able to freely choose to kill her baby. Supporting an unrestricted choice on this issue means you end up supporting the availability of abortion.

The logic is so flawed here… are you pro-choice about the murder of older children? I mean, the mother has to raise them, it’s such a burden on her, so she should be free to end the obligation, right? What about murder of adults? If they are in need of care from others, should those others have the right to decide it’s time for them to die?

What about armed robbery, rape, assault, embezzlement? Are you pro-choice on those issues? People should be legally and socially supported in choosing immoral activities? Where does this end?

IME, pro-choice but not pro-abortion is the preferred position of moral cowards. They don’t like the idea of abortion, but are too afraid to say that to people, so they say they don’t like abortion but don’t feel they have the right to take away others’ choices. How do I know this? I was that way once too, and unfortunately for me, my stupidity was immortalized in my high school yearbook. So 100 years from now, people will be able to see just how stupid I was at 17.

 

[estesbob]

You know I still disagree that being prochoice automatically means that you are proabortion. Like the defination says Proabortions means FAVORING and supporting abortion. While prochoice simply means you support a womans right to choose. Many prochoice people including myself actually favor that a woman DOES NOT choose abortion. Now can one be prochoice but be proabortion in the sense that they think that women should have a choice but they prefer that they choose an abortion? Yes…but then there cuold also be proabortion people that are not prochoice in the sense that they do not think women should have a choice. Fortunately there isn;t many of those type of people.

So you are not in favor of killing your child but are in favor of letting other people kill their child. Correct?

 

[Calliso]

So you are not in favor of killing your child but are in favor of letting other people kill their child. Correct?

Personally I am in favor of no one aborting their child. Unless of course it is a life or death situation in which case I pick the mother hands down everytime. Course in those cases most of the time the fetus is doomed either way. And I also think abortions should be done as early as possible, in the first trimester. I also would not have a problem even with making abortions past a certain time…illegal but for extreme reasons such as rape or threat to life. But as for a 8 week old fetus? I think it should be the mothers choice.

 

[estesbob]

Personally I am in favor of no one aborting their child. Unless of course it is a life or death situation in which case I pick the mother hands down everytime. Course in those cases most of the time the fetus is doomed either way. And I also think abortions should be done as early as possible, in the first trimester. I also would not have a problem even with making abortions past a certain time…illegal but for extreme reasons such as rape or threat to life. But as for a 8 week old fetus? I think it should be the mothers choice.

Lets rephrase getting rid of the euphanisms:

Personally I am in favor of no one*** killing*** their child. Unless of course it is a life or death situation in which case I pick the mother hands down everytime. Course in those cases most of the time the child is doomed either way. And I also think children should be killed as early as possible, in the first trimester. I also would not have a problem even with making killing children past a certain time…illegal but for extreme reasons such as rape or threat to life. But as for a 8 week old child?? I think it should be the mothers choice to kill her child.

 

[Belgarion]

I thought at 8 weeks its considered an embyro…

ITs quite funny and yet typical that people don’t know these things…

Anyways, the embyro, or fetus as you incorrectly put it, is a child, as I said before.

At 8 weeks, as I said before, it has facial features, a complete skeletal structure, a brain, and all of its internal organs. Its brain has an EEG, and its DNA is unique (though its always been that way)

This child, so wonderfully developed already, should not deserve to be killed.
Its ridiculous to think that the mother (who is as flawed as the rest of us human beings) the choice of “To kill, or not to kill”
She was given this baby’s life only to throw it away because of her own selfishness.
This child will never smell sweet roses.
This child will never roll around in the grass.
This child will never shower the mother in kisses.
This child will never feel love.
This child will never experience so many things, simply because the mother didn’t want to experience something called “parenting”

P.S. Pong, quite frankly, it does not matter what you think. The Church and the Pope (both infallible sources) condemn abortion. If you deny one Doctrine of the Faith, you deny them all. However, more specifically, you’re denying the infallibility of the Pope and the Church, which means you’re denying the very Catholic faith.
You are not Catholic.
If you want to be, turn away from your misguided ways, go to confession and beg for God’s forgiveness. Only then can you receive His Holy Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. If you attempt to again, you’re commiting sacrilege, and have therefore added another Mortal Sin to your soul. If something is not done about this, and you die while in this state, you will spend eternity suffering in Hell.

As a Catholic, I am obliged to inform you of this. Otherswise I may be held responisible for your fate. simply because I did not warn you.

 

[Calliso]

I thought at 8 weeks its considered an embyro…

ITs quite funny and yet typical that people don’t know these things…

Anyways, the embyro, or fetus as you incorrectly put it, is a child, as I said before.

At 8 weeks, as I said before, it has facial features, a complete skeletal structure, a brain, and all of its internal organs. Its brain has an EEG, and its DNA is unique (though its always been that way)

This child, so wonderfully developed already, should not deserve to be killed.
Its ridiculous to think that the mother (who is as flawed as the rest of us human beings) the choice of “To kill, or not to kill”
She was given this baby’s life only to throw it away because of her own selfishness.
This child will never smell sweet roses.
This child will never roll around in the grass.
This child will never shower the mother in kisses.
This child will never feel love.
This child will never experience so many things, simply because the mother didn’t want to experience something called “parenting”

P.S. Pong, quite frankly, it does not matter what you think. The Church and the Pope (both infallible sources) condemn abortion. If you deny one Doctrine of the Faith, you deny them all. However, more specifically, you’re denying the infallibility of the Pope and the Church, which means you’re denying the very Catholic faith.
You are not Catholic.
If you want to be, turn away from your misguided ways, go to confession and beg for God’s forgiveness. Only then can you receive His Holy Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. If you attempt to again, you’re commiting sacrilege, and have therefore added another Mortal Sin to your soul. If something is not done about this, and you die while in this state, you will spend eternity suffering in Hell.

As a Catholic, I am obliged to inform you of this. Otherswise I may be held responisible for your fate. simply because I did not warn you.

Darn I knew I should have gone with my first thought that an 8 week old was an embryo. But for some reason I thoguht well maybe it is not…and was making the post in a hurry so didn;t have time to look up the answer. But believe it or not my orginal thought was that an 8 week old unborn baby is an embyro. And yes I am aware of the other physical details.

 

[Calliso]

Lets rephrase getting rid of the euphanisms:

Personally I am in favor of no one*** killing*** their child. Unless of course it is a life or death situation in which case I pick the mother hands down everytime. Course in those cases most of the time the child is doomed either way. And I also think children should be killed as early as possible, in the first trimester. I also would not have a problem even with making killing children past a certain time…illegal but for extreme reasons such as rape or threat to life. But as for a 8 week old child?? I think it should be the mothers choice to kill her child.

I am not in favor of killing an already born child. If the mother doesn;t want the child once it is already born she has the option of adopting it out if she does not want to take care of it.

 

[Belgarion]

I am not in favor of killing an already born child. If the mother doesn;t want the child once it is already born she has the option of adopting it out if she does not want to take care of it.

Give me the difference between an unborn and a born child.

Is the child any less human before its birth?

 

[estesbob]

I am not in favor of killing an already born child. If the mother doesn;t want the child once it is already born she has the option of adopting it out if she does not want to take care of it.

So why does the day old child have a right to life it didnt have the day before?

 

[agapewolf]

rpp- I will continue to list my religious affiliation as Catholic and there isn’t a thing you can do about it. I will also continue to hold these same beliefs regardning abortion and not lose a minute of sleep over it. My beliefs are neither self-destructive, nor do they support “mass murder” as you call it. I will never see abortion as muder so I would advise you to stop wasting your breath.

Why in the world would you want to receive communion? Receiving communion is saying that you believe in everythign the Church teaches…that you are ONE with the church…and your beliefs are NOT what the church believes.

So you are lying when you receive. There is no integrity in that.

Please read this: Vegatarians for a free choice:

catholicity.com/commentary/coyne/vfc.html

Here’s a clip:

How can any father look his four-year-old son in the eye and tell him that he cannot be both a practicing vegetarian and a hot dog lover? Why should a working mom, who is deeply committed to the principles of vegetarianism, feel guilty simply for snacking on an occasional beef jerky? How can any movement or organization systematically exclude those who, for medical reasons, must eat a diet rich in poultry and beef?

For a long time these questions haunted me until one day I stumbled upon the answer - Vegetarians for a Free Choice. Tossing off the shackles of the traditional vegetarian movement, Vegetarians for a Free Choice seeks to bring “choice” back to eating.

For too long, an extremist group of anti-meat ideologues has attempted to dictate what defines vegetarianism. These extremists and their overly legalistic view of vegetarianism have discouraged many of us from joining a movement we might otherwise find appealing. In fact, recent polls indicate that over 72% of those who currently consider themselves non-vegetarians would consider becoming vegetarians if they were simply permitted to retain the right to eat meat.

By the very definition of being Catholic, one is pro-life. That is what is being Catholic means.

By the way, I was conceived in what could be considered a rape. I was given up for adoption. I’m sure my birth mother doesn’t think like you. Your stance insults everyone that lives and has ever lived, especially those adopted. Because that aborted tissue is someone like you or me.

 

[Calliso]

Give me the difference between an unborn and a born child.

Is the child any less human before its birth?

They are both the same amount of human dna wise. As for the difference well that depends on a lot of things. I mean the only difference between a 9 month old unborn and a born 9 month old is one is born one is not. Other then that there likely isn;t any other physical differences. However on a physical and even mental level a newborn is different from a 8 week old embyro. Btw I should also add that I am against late term abortions past viablity for any reason other then very grave ones. And I am pretty sure by the time you get to 9 monthes of age I am not really sure there is any medical issue that would put one in a life or death situation that one would have not known about at least a few monthes earlier.

 

[estesbob]

They are both the same amount of human dna wise. As for the difference well that depends on a lot of things. I mean the only difference between a 9 month old unborn and a born 9 month old is one is born one is not. Other then that there likely isn;t any other physical differences. However on a physical and even mental level a newborn is different from a 8 week old embyro. Btw I should also add that I am against late term abortions past viablity for any reason other then very grave ones. And I am pretty sure by the time you get to 9 monthes of age I am not really sure there is any medical issue that would put one in a life or death situation that one would have not known about at least a few monthes earlier.

So where do you draw the line and what moral or biological basis do you use to draw this line? Human life is taken regadless. Dont you think it is a bit arrogant for mankind to decide who deserves to live and who deserves to die? When we acpet aborton are we any different than those who decided blacks only counted as 3/5 a human or jews were sub-human?