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estesbob
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I dont think we need the Church to teach us that killing ones chid is wrong
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Calliso
Guest
Well I admit the whole pain thing is mainly my emotions coming into play, I admit it;s not really a purely logical thing. The viablity thing does influence my view more though. And yes even out of the womb the child cannot support it;self but it is also not directly taking from the mother anymore and living inside her. Once it is born though she has the option of adopting the child out. I mean I am pretty sure you can even set up an adoption before the baby is even born so as soon as it is born the adoptive parents take it.
And yes I mean kill the fetus/unborn child I mean I do realize something is being killed…I do not think a fetus isn;t living. Also it really has nothing to do with how human or unhuman the child looks. In fact it seems to me that many prolifers use the argument of oh it looks so human at such an early stage to try and sway people. At least in my experience.
Now while I donlt think early term abortions should be restricted…do I think that abortion should be the first choice people make when they are in a bad situation or what not? No I donlt…I think people should think hard on their decision and weigh their options. And personally I would encourage people to carry to viablity then give the baby up for adoption if they are not ready to be parents. I would also encourage them especially if the girl is unmarried to stop having sex…because they are taking a huge risk. And that if they are married they need to use some from of contraceptive or strict use of nfp if they do not want to get pregnant. But being that i am not even 100% sure what I would do if I were to get pregnant I do not think it is right for me personally at this point to say that women should not be allowed to have an abortion early term.
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BlestOne
Guest
It is really about fear of the unknown… you fear that it(childbirth) will hurt or that raising a baby will be too hard… do you not think even in planned pregnancies that the mother doesn’t have these thoughts? Of course we do! What kind of mom will I be? Can I afford to raise a baby? How much will childbirth hurt? Can I take the pain? How does this affect my other life plans? We all have these thoughts with at least our first pregnancy! But, we also recognize that God will provide! And God will be there every step of the way if we let him in!
The saddest part is that society has taught us that the easy way out is the best… it isn’t! As we fear the unknown it is easy to rationalize, justify and dehumanize the decision… when in truth the decision time is when we agree to have sex, not when we find out that life resulted!
The fact is that from conception a fetus is a human baby with it’s own unique DNA and all… The time for choice is when you are deciding to have sex, not when you find out you are pregnant! By the time you find out, that baby already has blood running through it’s body and in most cases, a heart beat can be heard.
Why shouldn’t there be laws restricting abortion? It is murdering the weakest most helpless of our society. As a society we recognize the need to protect our citizens especially the weakest and most helpless.
If a woman does not feel she can raise a child there are lots of women who would love to that can’t. Every child is conceived and born for a reason… not our reason… God’s!
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estesbob
Guest
Of course you can set up an adoption for your child before the baby is born -in fact the overwhelming majority are handled that way. You seem to put great stock in the location of the child as far as its right to life is concerned, in the mother’s womb its fair game. Move it a few feet outside her womb and it’s a capital crime to killd it. In neither case can the child support itself . What logic is there to this?
Yes many do point that out but that is to counter the pro-abortion mantra that it’s just a blob of tissue. Of course ones right to life should neither depend on how “human” one looks nor what stage of development they are in.
What possible difference can it make what stage of development we are in determining our right to life? Does a teenager have a greater right to life than a toddler? A day old baby more than a baby a day from being born. When dealing with something as sacred as life how can we possibly make
subjective judgements on who gets to live and who its OK to kill?
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm
So, if it is ok to break the 5th commandment in the name of “choice”, which other ones should we feel free to disregard?
Maybe I’ll tell my Catholic friend that it’s ok if she believes in more than one God, but it would be wrong for me to.
Or how about I tell me daughter that when she grows up it’s fine that her or her friends are disrespectful to their parents, it’s their choice.
Oh, I know! When my friend comes to me with her marriage troubles I’ll suggest adultery as an option. After all, she should have the right to choose her own path to happiness…who am I to stand in her way?
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- I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me. - You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain. - Remember to keep holy the LORD’S Day.
- Honor your father and your mother.
- You shall not kill.
- You shall not commit adultery.
- You shall not steal.
- You shall not bear false witness
against your neighbor. - You shall not covet
your neighbor’s wife. - You shall not covet
your neighbor’s goods.
So, if it is ok to break the 5th commandment in the name of “choice”, which other ones should we feel free to disregard?
Maybe I’ll tell my Catholic friend that it’s ok if she believes in more than one God, but it would be wrong for me to.
Or how about I tell me daughter that when she grows up it’s fine that her or her friends are disrespectful to their parents, it’s their choice.
Oh, I know! When my friend comes to me with her marriage troubles I’ll suggest adultery as an option. After all, she should have the right to choose her own path to happiness…who am I to stand in her way?
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estesbob
Guest
But only in the “early” years of her marriage…
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
**That’s true… I guess I should set a random time limit. Maybe if a marriage is 5 years or younger? Yeah, I like the sound of that
Oh, but wait, if the marriage or her husband is threatening her happiness or her health then adultery should be an option no matter how long they have been married.
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fix
Guest
I know you are being facetious here, but I think there are many who actually would claim adultery is acceptable if people are unhappy for certain reasons.**That’s true… I guess I should set a random time limit. Maybe if a marriage is 5 years or younger? Yeah, I like the sound of that
Oh, but wait, if the marriage or her husband is threatening her happiness or her health then adultery should be an option no matter how long they have been married.
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Calliso
Guest
Correct me if I am wrong but techinically isn;t the 5th commandment actually thou shall not murder? and murder is a legal term. I have read much, if not all of the old testament and it certainly doesnl;t seem to me that God is totally against any human killing period in it.
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water
Guest
If you think woman should have a choice to have an abortion, then you should think the little “woman” infant inside this woman should also have a choice.
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
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From my understanding it is in the translation… I pulled this off the Vatican website so I knew it would be the proper Catholic form. God is not against killing, just murder of innocents. But I am not an apologist so I will not get into a debate about that…
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jman507
Guest
Well that’s sorta the point with a large group of people who are against abortion. If you equate it to murder, it’s going to be really hard to justify it being properly a licit choice.
If you think it isn’t quite murder, such as killing your dog for respectable reasons, then one may feel it isn’t a great choice (possibly a bad choice among worse choices). One could still reason it could be a licit choice.
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duskyjewel
Guest
None of you pro-choicers have addressed this post at all, or any of the other LOGIC thrown your way. Care to anytime soon?
Why does she have less right to live, as a human created in God’s image, at one stage than at another? This has nothing to do with legality, it has to do with morality, and they are different things. The fact that you think it would have been perfectly acceptable for me to kill her at the time of the first picture, but not at the time of the second picture (last week) just shows how flawed your logic is.
These pictures show the SAME PERSON! The only difference between them is about six years of time.
Calliso… I am having a really hard time with your “an 8 week old fetus is no big deal” thing. Wanna know why? I have an ultrasound scan of one of my daughters at 6 weeks gestation. You can clearly see her head, arms, legs… at only 6 weeks.
Why does she have less right to live, as a human created in God’s image, at one stage than at another? This has nothing to do with legality, it has to do with morality, and they are different things. The fact that you think it would have been perfectly acceptable for me to kill her at the time of the first picture, but not at the time of the second picture (last week) just shows how flawed your logic is.
These pictures show the SAME PERSON! The only difference between them is about six years of time.
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Belgarion
Guest
One thing that my mother has encountered in her job is people who are shocked that she has 6 kids.
“Who would want SIX KIDS?!?”
Those people are usually the pro-abortion or “pro-‘choice’” crowd.
My mom has expressed her wish to take each and every one of her children up to those people and ask them:
“Which one of my kids do you think shouldn’t be alive?”
THAT’s what it boils down to.
Abortion is an act that prevents people from living. That is murder, the only difference is that you’re just doing it earlier.
How many beethovens and mozarts have they killed?
How many future peace-makers have they killed?
Abortions kill our future.
Anyways, Duskyjewel is right.
No one seems to want to try their hand at arguing against your logic. I myelf posted some nice points that no one seems to feel like arguing against.
Though it’d be hard to.
“Who would want SIX KIDS?!?”
Those people are usually the pro-abortion or “pro-‘choice’” crowd.
My mom has expressed her wish to take each and every one of her children up to those people and ask them:
“Which one of my kids do you think shouldn’t be alive?”
THAT’s what it boils down to.
Abortion is an act that prevents people from living. That is murder, the only difference is that you’re just doing it earlier.
How many beethovens and mozarts have they killed?
How many future peace-makers have they killed?
Abortions kill our future.
Anyways, Duskyjewel is right.
No one seems to want to try their hand at arguing against your logic. I myelf posted some nice points that no one seems to feel like arguing against.
Though it’d be hard to.
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duskyjewel
Guest
Belgarion, the daughter I showed above is the middle child of five. I get people at my PARISH who say I am nuts for having that many! Very few though. Usually we get older folks who reminisce about their large broods with us. 
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Belgarion
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Yeah well we’ve got a few nut jobs in our parish as well…mostly cafeteria Catholics.Belgarion, the daughter I showed above is the middle child of five. I get people at my PARISH who say I am nuts for having that many! Very few though. Usually we get older folks who reminisce about their large broods with us.
Old people are so much nicer!! They understand because they were around when large families where the norm.
Ever notice how they’re much happier than the other types of people?
My siblings can be a pain, but I wouldn’t give them up for the world.
I couldn’t imagine what its like to be a parent! ITs horrible that someone would wish to deny themself that feeling…
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Calliso
Guest
And the chances are just as high that the next dictator and mass murderer would have been one of the ones that has been aborted. Most people grow up to be nothing and do nothing trully important in their lives. That is a harsh thing to say but it is true. We need to stop saying well only if some miracle child will be born and save us all or whatever. Most if not all great people did not come out of the womb as great people…they had to make themselves that way.
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Calliso
Guest
Shrugs Not everyone feels that parenthood is for them. I do not feel denied or bad because I do not want to be a parent in the first place. And I admit I don;t understand sometimes why people want to be parents myself. But I can understand that for some people it is what they really want and is what makes them happy.Yeah well we’ve got a few nut jobs in our parish as well…mostly cafeteria Catholics.
Old people are so much nicer!! They understand because they were around when large families where the norm.
Ever notice how they’re much happier than the other types of people?
My siblings can be a pain, but I wouldn’t give them up for the world.
I couldn’t imagine what its like to be a parent! ITs horrible that someone would wish to deny themself that feeling…
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duskyjewel
Guest
Each and every person is a uniquely created and loved child of God, made in His image. Your opinion of their importance is irrelevant and based on worldly standards.
The little people are the ones who keep everything running, who make the backdrop for the great people. That’s important. Bill Gates wouldn’t have been able to build his techno-empire if he had to worry about growing his own food or building his own house.
And once again, you completely ignored my request to address and deal in the LOGIC that has been offered in this thread!
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