Pro-choice Catholics

[RobbyS]

He publicly advocated the pro-choice position. I don;t see where he ever publicly renounced any of the solidly pro-choice positions that he advocated. Quite the contrary. For example, he spoke out in support of President Bill Clinton’s veto of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act in 1996. So Father Drinan even advocated legalisation of partial birth abortion, and remained a priest in good standing in the Roman Catholic Church.

Because he had protectors in the Church. Our radically liberal abortion law is one of the major causes of division in the American Church. Very difficult to separate the sheep from the goats. I am reminded of the 4th Century Arian controversy. There was few open Arians, few Catholics, and lots and lots of Semi-Arians and the bishops, in large part because the emperor was a semi-arian. Ironically, the struggle was resolved in favor of the Catholics because the Emperor Julian “the Apostate,” withdrew his support from the Church and the bishops in power. It could be that the pro-abortion Obama will deny the pro-choice clergy any credibilty. His Notre Dame speech already forced a first ballot among the bishops, and it seem that the election of Dolan has been a second one. Nothing decisive, yet, but with God’s help, the equivocators will be persuaded to adhere to true doctrine.

 

[catharina]

Because he had protectors in the Church. Our radically liberal abortion law is one of the major causes of division in the American Church. Very difficult to separate the sheep from the goats. I am reminded of the 4th Century Arian controversy. There was few open Arians, few Catholics, and lots and lots of Semi-Arians and the bishops, in large part because the emperor was a semi-arian. Ironically, the struggle was resolved in favor of the Catholics because the Emperor Julian “the Apostate,” withdrew his support from the Church and the bishops in power. It could be that the pro-abortion Obama will deny the pro-choice clergy any credibilty. His Notre Dame speech already forced a first ballot among the bishops, and it seem that the election of Dolan has been a second one.

Nothing decisive, yet, but with God’s help, the equivocators will be persuaded to adhere to true doctrine.

A cause for much prayer.

 

[century153]

…the very word itself…Choice just proves the debate is kinda one sided.One always likes to hear that a ‘choice’ is posible…like going to the super market and having choices in produce. I handle this debate at presentations by explaining that choices are rare indeed…can one drive on either side of the street one wishes to or is the choice limited.Also why is the temporary host having the only ‘choice’…what of the daddy ,I am no biology major but I kinder think a male had something to do with this new creature appearing inside of this temporary hosts body…but he is never asked. What of future generations,how many of the 60 million developing babies killed here in the good ole US of A…would have maybe been a scientist discovering a cure for cancer or aids…get my drift…no choice of words there,the snow is really drifting outside…thank Gore for earth warming,imagine how bad this winter would be if not for this brilliant mans Noble prize discovery…I would never vote for a pro-abortion candidate for to me the right to life is numero uno or else does not matter . Pas

Another excellent post – although not backed by scripture. John - your post gave me a fleeting revelation about “choice”. The truth is that whatever choices we make are always going to effect others – you cannot make a choice to do or not do something without an effect. I read in another post about the Scott Peterson case and it brought back memories of how I just could not understand that he would be prosecuted and convicted of killing an unborn baby by killing the mother and still abortion continues to be legal. Abortion the way we know it today is so horrific that whatever Peterson did was far more humane. If you have checked out the website priestforlife.org you will be able to view some advertisements and videoes about abortion. They are doing as much as they possibly can to stop this terrible genocide. Pro-choicers close their ears and eyes to what is really going on when it comes to abortion, but I believe one day the pendulum will swing back. I pray it doesn’t swing too far – we need to be prudent about all things. You know, if we all lived according to the Word and God’s Way, we would never have any of these problems. But, alas, we are IN the world, not OF the world.

Thank you again for your post. I hope we can continue to debate this issue in a civil manner and try to shed some light on the subject of abortion without accusing one another but by gentle reproach and encouragement. So far, I have not seen where the pro-choice Catholics have backed up their belief with scripture or encyclicals etc. I have seen where pro-lifers have done so. This I want to say, that as Catholics we must obey what the church teaches, but if we have trouble with this we can go to confession and we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. He helps us by His Holy Spirit to discern what is right and what is wrong. If we truly seek Him and want to please Him, then we can go to Him in prayer and He will help us sort it out. And this goes for all things. For it is by grace we are saved and not of ourselves, lest any man should boast. And grace covers a multitude of sins – yes, even the worse sins of all – for He died to take our sins away.

Getting off the soap box – I just want to say that I believe that there are Catholics out there who truly believe that pro-choice is fine - but that is only because they do not know what pro-choice has caused. When they begin to see the effects of legal abortion has done by opening their eyes, they will soon change their minds. Once again Satan has reared his ugly head and lied to God’s people and convinced them there is no other way. But, just as murder is not legal, and rape is not legal, so also, abortion should not be legal.

 

[Newbie2]

I think abortion is a travesty. But the only abortion I would feel personal regret about would be my own. If I made that decision, if I terminated a pregnancy (read: KILLED A DEVELOPING HUMAN BEING) I would then have to take steps to reconcile that with my God: not you, not catharina, not edwest2, not any other living human being. Now if the father of the embryo/fetus was in the picture I believe we would come to terms about this before the procedure. And if apologies and amends were due, I would apply my energies, heart and soul to that endeavor.

But any other person who undergoes abortion is beyond my scrutiny. And when a life is lost/sacrificed, snuffed out/obliterated/aspirated/ended, that is between the woman and her God, and also perhaps the father if he is present.

***On a moral level, I am responsible solely for my own behaviors. *** I maintain my pro-choice stance: it is none of my business what other women do in the circumstance of unplanned pregnancy.

gen

I don’t really like to respond to a banned poster, as they cannot respond, but I think this needs a response:

That is a head-in-the-sand response that is contradicted in pretty much all of Christian teaching. We do not live in a vacuum, we live in a society and as part of that society we all carry a responsibility to the other members of that society…and as Christians to the entire human race as well.

Even from a pragmatic POV, the head-in -the-sand approach is bad. If we as a society (a country in this instance) were to have ignored Nazi Germany because to each and every one of us the atrocities were simply and only “between the individual Nazis and God”, think of where that type of thinking would have put us.

Abortion is not all that different. It is a societal matter as well as an individual one. It is my business and yours as well that Miss Unplanned pregnancy decides to kill her unborn son or daughter, in the same sense that it is our business that Miss Unplanned pregnancy’s dad goes over to Miss Unplanned pregnancy’s boyfriend’s house and lays a beating on him before shooting him. We have an obligation not to look the other way because it “doesn’t affect us”, because it affects us all.

We all have an obligation to help stop abortions. Our level of participation may be to help legislate against it, picket clinics, councel pregnant women, give money to pro-life organizations, or simply pray for the unborn…but we are obligated to participate at some level.

 

[century153]

I don’t really like to respond to a banned poster, as they cannot respond, but I think this needs a response:

That is a head-in-the-sand response that is contradicted in pretty much all of Christian teaching. We do not live in a vacuum, we live in a society and as part of that society we all carry a responsibility to the other members of that society…and as Christians to the entire human race as well.

Even from a pragmatic POV, the head-in -the-sand approach is bad. If we as a society (a country in this instance) were to have ignored Nazi Germany because to each and every one of us the atrocities were simply and only “between the individual Nazis and God”, think of where that type of thinking would have put us.

Abortion is not all that different. It is a societal matter as well as an individual one. It is my business and yours as well that Miss Unplanned pregnancy decides to kill her unborn son or daughter, in the same sense that it is our business that Miss Unplanned pregnancy’s dad goes over to Miss Unplanned pregnancy’s boyfriend’s house and lays a beating on him before shooting him. We have an obligation not to look the other way because it “doesn’t affect us”, because it affects us all.

We all have an obligation to help stop abortions. Our level of participation may be to help legislate against it, picket clinics, councel pregnant women, give money to pro-life organizations, or simply pray for the unborn…but we are obligated to participate at some level.

Excellent post. Thank you so much for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[beafedor]

So we have lost “genevievelives”. She said she is OK with abortion and she had one herself (that particular post has been removed). If you friends know anything about post abortion trauma, you must understand that she is hurting even though she is defending the right to have an abortion. It is pretty common to be ambivalent about abortion and to be angry at the world. We have failed her, we have failed to listen to her and to share the truth in a brotherly way. We have failed to extend Jesus’ compassion to one of our sisters.

You guys might not have had an abortion but you have committed other sins in your lives. What if somebody was condemning you for your gossiping, your overeating, your addiction to pornography just because your anger and self hatred transpire on these topics on a public forum?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I’ve told this story before…in high school, I guess about 25 years ago, a class mate had an abortion.

One day after the “procedure” she was in study hall. I saw her head on the desk, and she was trembling. I thought she was laughing about something.

Instead she was crying, and sobbing. She sounded like a wounded animal. She lifted her head from the desk, and was sayubg something over and over, she was saying, “It hard arms, it had legs” her aborted child.

I was 16, and totally unprepared on how to help her.

 

[Newbie2]

So we have lost “genevievelives”. She said she is OK with abortion and she had one herself (that particular post has been removed). If you friends know anything about post abortion trauma, you must understand that she is hurting even though she is defending the right to have an abortion. It is pretty common to be ambivalent about abortion and to be angry at the world. We have failed her, we have failed to listen to her and to share the truth in a brotherly way. We have failed to extend Jesus’ compassion to one of our sisters.

You guys might not have had an abortion but you have committed other sins in your lives. What if somebody was condemning you for your gossiping, your overeating, your addiction to pornography just because your anger and self hatred transpire on these topics on a public forum?

I beg to differ. Look at gen’s posts over the entire forum. We listened, we shared the truth in a brotherly way, but she kept arguing against it. It’s not our mission to water down the gospel, and I cannot help that she may be angry at the Church or angry at the world or angry at herself.

I’m all for anyone condemning my sins, aren’t you?

 

[beafedor]

I beg to differ. Look at gen’s posts over the entire forum. We listened, we shared the truth in a brotherly way, but she kept arguing against it. It’s not our mission to water down the gospel, and I cannot help that she may be angry at the Church or angry at the world or angry at herself.

I’m all for anyone condemning my sins, aren’t you?

Newbie, I was talking about people who condemn the sinner, not the sin. Some sins that we commit cause mental issues and spiritual wounds. I can testify that abortion is one of them. Using a little psychology and extending compassion doesn’t mean watering down our moral values.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

You hear the pain in her posts. I’m sure she’s hurting and I’m praying for her. I don’t know of anything that will heal someone like gen except falling in the arms of Jesus and Mary.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[traillius]

Thank God my mom is opposed to abortions. I was conceived one month almost to the day before the roe v. wade decision. I avoid labels. I am opposed to abortions, because they are intrinsically evil acts. I think abortion is always and everywhere the wrong choice. People my age are the first group of people to have our would be fellow 37-38 years be made into a targeted, legally unprotected class of humans.

 

[Newbie2]

Newbie, I was talking about people who condemn the sinner, not the sin. Some sins that we commit cause mental issues and spiritual wounds. I can testify that abortion is one of them. Using a little psychology and extending compassion doesn’t mean watering down our moral values.

I agree, but I don’t accept that we’ve “failed” her just because we didn’t recognize/diagnose her problem(s) that may exist.

Maybe she’s simply against Church teachings.

Anyway we shouldn’t take her position on “it’s not my problem”. Hopefully in toto we gave her something to think about.

 

[century153]

So we have lost “genevievelives”. She said she is OK with abortion and she had one herself (that particular post has been removed). If you friends know anything about post abortion trauma, you must understand that she is hurting even though she is defending the right to have an abortion. It is pretty common to be ambivalent about abortion and to be angry at the world. We have failed her, we have failed to listen to her and to share the truth in a brotherly way. We have failed to extend Jesus’ compassion to one of our sisters.

You guys might not have had an abortion but you have committed other sins in your lives. What if somebody was condemning you for your gossiping, your overeating, your addiction to pornography just because your anger and self hatred transpire on these topics on a public forum?

I have sent a private message to the moderator and am waiting for a response. I did not see the post that was removed, however, I thought as much. This is exactly why I started this thread – because I am sure there are many hurting women out there and although I have not had an abortion I can relate to them in some small way. I did not see any problem with what she posted that is still in the thread and I cannot speak for the moderator, but I plead with him to please let her back on. Somehow, please contact her and let her know we are here for her. Please, I beg you.

 

[century153]

So we have lost “genevievelives”. She said she is OK with abortion and she had one herself (that particular post has been removed). If you friends know anything about post abortion trauma, you must understand that she is hurting even though she is defending the right to have an abortion. It is pretty common to be ambivalent about abortion and to be angry at the world. We have failed her, we have failed to listen to her and to share the truth in a brotherly way. We have failed to extend Jesus’ compassion to one of our sisters.

You guys might not have had an abortion but you have committed other sins in your lives. What if somebody was condemning you for your gossiping, your overeating, your addiction to pornography just because your anger and self hatred transpire on these topics on a public forum?

And thank you for your post beafedor. You have hit it on the head.

 

[Newbie2]

I have sent a private message to the moderator and am waiting for a response. I did not see the post that was removed, however, I thought as much. This is exactly why I started this thread – because I am sure there are many hurting women out there and although I have not had an abortion I can relate to them in some small way. I did not see any problem with what she posted that is still in the thread and I cannot speak for the moderator, but I plead with him to please let her back on. Somehow, please contact her and let her know we are here for her. Please, I beg you.

She can still follow the thread even if banned.

 

[century153]

She can still follow the thread even if banned.

Are you saying that a banned member is able to logon? If that is the case, I would like to say to gen – send me an e-mail at century153@aol.com - I will be checking my e-mails for your response. Thank you, L

 

[catharina]

I agree, but I don’t accept that we’ve “failed” her just because we didn’t recognize/diagnose her problem(s) that may exist.

Maybe she’s simply against Church teachings.

Anyway we shouldn’t take her position on “it’s not my problem”. Hopefully in toto we gave her something to think about.

I agree that it’s sad she’s gone but I don’t think we bear responsibility for it.
Acc to many of her posts, she expected to be banned.
I guess she said something outrageous and got herself banned.

None of us know why she was banned.
I was surprised to see the ‘banned.’

We can still pray for her.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

I went to a pro-life mass today in rememberance of Roe V Wade. Then I went to a city council meeing in Council Bluffs, IA. About 300 people showed up to encourage the
city council to pass some zoning laws that would make Council Bluffs unattractive for LeRoy Carhart to start a late term abortion clinic. If you don’t know who he is…he is a late term abortionist that practiced in Nebraska until recently. You see when Nebraska passed a fetal pain law that prohibits abortion after the 22nd week, it put a big dent into his business. It is rumored that he is looking to start a late term abortion facility in Council Bluffs, IA. I live in Iowa (Iowa Mike) and don’t want him moving into my neighborhood (or anyone elses for that matter).

During the meeting a woman got up and spoke against abortion. I’d guess her age to be 60 - 65 years old. She spoke passionately and eloquently in opposition to abortion fueled by haviing had one when she was a young woman. The pain in her voice was palpable and she reminded me of the pain I ‘heard’ in gen’s posts. This lady was still full of guilt, she struggled, really struggled, to get her story out…she is an amazing witness. But she owned up to her mistake…she came back into the arms of the Church…she is an incredible witness to the horrific aftermath of abortion.

This is the problem I have with someone like gen…we are obligated as Catholics to speak the truth. I feel for this gen but she is in a dark place… I am prayinb for her and I ask everyone on the forum to do the same.

Please also pray for the conversion of LeRoy Carhart (even though I’d like to put my size 13 in a place that would get his attention).

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[etspiri2sanctus]

Catholics for Choice

catholicsforchoice.org/actioncenter/CatholicsforaFreeChoice-SpeakOut.asp

Call to Action

cta-usa.org/

Catholics for a Free Choice

catholicsforchoice.org/about/default.asp

All of the above websites deny the full authority of the magisterium on the subject of abortion. They misconstrue Catholic teaching, foment confusion and project the idea that each individual is a “god” in his/her own right. If one does not believe in Absolute Truth, which these websites do not, one has no lodestone to focus and centralize their thinking and beliefs. Much, much misinformation on these sites. I wouldn’t touch them with an eighty foot pole.

 

[etspiri2sanctus]

Catholics for Choice

catholicsforchoice.org/actioncenter/CatholicsforaFreeChoice-SpeakOut.asp

Call to Action

cta-usa.org/

Catholics for a Free Choice

catholicsforchoice.org/about/default.asp

This topic continues to rise and bloom through the parched land that is Conservative Catholicism - that is to say, true Catholicism. I’m not sure why posters continue to bring it up when it has been addressed and fought over time and again, as if forum members have suddenly found themselves on the battlefield at Antietam and the moderators are watching to see if anyone actually draws a Springfield Rifle-Musket.

There is no way a practicing conservative Catholic will ever agree with a pro-choice individual who is or has ever been affiliated with the Catholic Church. It’s a no-brainer. The true Catholic has a duty and a desire to believe all doctrine, all dogma, all ideology presented by the Magisterium. The once-and-perhaps-never-again Catholic, even though yoked by the Church’s teaching that he or she is once-and-forever a Catholic no matter what foul and evil deeds that person may have been involved in, will usually decline any invitation to return to the swaddling safety of the Church, and will go it alone. This person may be of the pro-choice persuasion.

I am pro-choice. The average CAF member may find others in the archives who have made strong arguments for the pro-choice side. It makes no difference what has been said or what will be said. It is all without purpose. What happens is you get to pontificate, and then the pro-choice folks head out on the battlefield with their sling shots, only to be brought down by the sheer numbers of muskets from the other side, the muskets that are allowed by the moderators because they are defending the fort. I’m not even talking about vitriolic posting or name calling. I’m just referring to the fact that the “Evil Other Side” is tolerated only so long, and then a shut-down judgment is made.

If you are not acting the gadfly here, just what do you hope to gain or learn by dragging us all out of our burrows one more time? I’m game, but I do not have the freedom to express the 360 degrees of my view because the threat is always there that the very UNCatholicness of my position may warrant a banishment. Or is that what you want?

gen

Abortion, has been compared to slavery many times, but I am going to bring it up once again. If we now lived in a nation in which some states permitted slavery, would we be for, or against slavery if we said “I personally am against slavery. I would never own a slave, but since the law permits slavery, others have the choice to do as they will?” For, or against slavery? I would say if one is not AGAINST slavery of all kinds, one is FOR it.

Child abuse. "I would never beat my child, but if others want to do so, that is their business’.
I would say one is FOR child abuse.

If we as a Christian people do not give sanctuary to every unborn child by raising our voices against abortion, by helping the mothers who are in serious straits and who think abortion is the only way out, we are pro abortion. No ifs, ands and buts about it.

'This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. Deuteronomy 30:19