Pro Life versus Pro Choice Debate

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If you are not informed why do you ask me to do your research for you? I did one simple Google search (which you could have done) and found this article immediately, however, if you listened or paid any attention to the campaign in 2008, the attacks on Sarah Palin specifically because she chose to carry her baby to term were to say the least plentiful, hateful, and narrow minded.

Abortion Advocate Gloria Steinem Attacks Sarah Palin:
Did you even bother to read that article? Note the part in bold:
“She doesn’t just echo McCain’s pledge to criminalize abortion by overturning Roe vs. Wade, she says that if one of her daughters were impregnated by rape or incest, she should bear the child,” Steinem claimed in the attack piece. “She not only opposes reproductive freedom as a human right but implies that it dictates abortion, without saying that it also protects the right to have a child.”
So, yes, I could’ve found the article quickly with Google, but there’s no search engine I can use to see things through a worldview that’s not based in reality.

Again: can you name one of your “very vocal pro choice voices” who actually criticized Palin for her decision not to abort her own child, and can you back it up with one actual source?
 
If Palin is just even 10% right, that would make the other side WRONG. This they fear.

Is Biden really Catholic??? Has a bishop spoken to him about his views on choice?
Does he go to communion? It would be interesting to know, because of his position of power.
 
Did you even bother to read that article? Note the part in bold:

So, yes, I could’ve found the article quickly with Google, but there’s no search engine I can use to see things through a worldview that’s not based in reality.

Again: can you name one of your “very vocal pro choice voices” who actually criticized Palin for her decision not to abort her own child, and can you back it up with one actual source?
There are none so blind as those that will not see……

Did you read the article? Were you on the planet during the campaign?

For the arch-feminist, Palin’s pro-life views – as evidenced by her decision not to have an abortion when she learned earlier this year her unborn child had Down syndrome – are the most worrisome.

Are you implying that they are not suggesting that she should have had an abortion?

Most of the pro choice people are too smart to directly attack Sarah Palin for not having an abortion when she discovered that her baby was a victim of Downs Syndrome, however, you do not have to be a rocket scientist (or even pro life) to see through the thinly veiled attacks. And to claim that this was not a motive for attacking her is disingenuous at best.

AGAIN, please do your own research. There are hundreds of articles out there confirming the fact the Sarah Palin was attacked numerous times specifically because of her failure to obtain an abortion. There are even whole web sites dedicated to ridiculing Trig because of his Downs Syndrome.

If you want to find an issue that I have stated wrongly, please believe me this is not the one you want. The pro choice group vehemently opposes Sarah’s choice to carry her downs syndrome child to term.
 
This sounds like “faith-based” political analysis. By what measure do you make that judgement?

This debate is silly. We have diverted the conversation from the pro-Life vs pro-abortion debate. We are now rehashing the last election. Much better that we put our efforts into assuring that we get a national health plan.
Just a thought, but by what judgement did Chris Mathews have a shiver running up his
leg when speaking of Obama? He said this on live TV, I believe. There is much at work in the political stadium. Joe Biden made stuff up as he spoke in the debate. No one said anything about that. Why not? If you read Michelle Malkin’s book, “Culture of Corruption,” you will find all this sort of thing documented with plenty of names and places of origin. Notes galore if that’s what people need. But no one seems to care. The women on “The View” don’t. They just keep blaming Bush. They had Michelle on their show and were very unprepared.

What else can be said regarding pro life and pro-choice? Does someone need to decide that it is a life, a person we are dealing with? Who would do that? Really, who would do that? Why not err on the side of caution? That is, if you are going to err.

Health plan? Would you sign a contract without reading it or understanding it?
I don’t think so.

Everything is somehow connected when you bring these issues up. Hard to avoid mentioning certain personalities and parties.
 
We are getting off subject, however, since Sarah Palin was brought into this discussion because of her courageous demonstration of what a moral person and society should do; let me say in her defense that the criticism of her abilities and fitness for public office are way out of line.

She accomplished more in her public life than Obama and Biden combined. As far as the interview with Katie Couric and Charlie Gibson was concerned, the way she was set up by them reflects more on them then her.

Anyone who thinks otherwise has either bought into the character assassination or just thinks women are not fit for public office. There have been numerous male candidates that were far dumber and accomplished far less than her that were never attack in the same manner. Obama and Biden are perfect examples.

The ability to fool people with a glib tongue does not alone make for a good public servant.
I didn’t vote for either major party candidate, so I don’t have a dog inthis fight. However, your comment that Palin accomplished more than Obama and Biden combined is ludicrous, and reflects a very partisan viewpoint from you. And seriously, you cannot possibly believe that Palin was “set up” by either Gibson or Couric. She was asked extremely softball questions that she could have responded to in any number of ways. The fact that she stammered and looked ridiculous is purely her own doing.
 
I didn’t vote for either major party candidate, so I don’t have a dog inthis fight. However, your comment that Palin accomplished more than Obama and Biden combined is ludicrous, and reflects a very partisan viewpoint from you. And seriously, you cannot possibly believe that Palin was “set up” by either Gibson or Couric. She was asked extremely softball questions that she could have responded to in any number of ways. The fact that she stammered and looked ridiculous is purely her own doing.
Lets drop it there, I am tempted to ask for a listing of Obama and Bidens accomplishments and start a comparison, however, as I mentioned previous, that political discussion is for another topic.
 
Lets drop it there, I am tempted to ask for a listing of Obama and Bidens accomplishments and start a comparison, however, as I mentioned previous, that political discussion is for another topic.
As stated, I didn’t vote for Obama / Biden, and I don’t identify with them politically, so I am likely not the best person to vouch for their accomplishments anyway.
 
Just an anecdote:

From my limited perspective, it seems the pro-life position is slowly winning. There is no guarantee that the trends will continue, of course, but there has been a definite and noticeable trend towards understanding that a fetus is a complete human life, not merely a potential human life, and so deserving of same treatment as other humans.

To take one startling example, a couple months ago I came into a discussion in the park among a group of anarchists about abortion. It was about 50% pro-life, 50% pro-choice. (Obviously the pro-life anarchists would support only nonpunitive solutions and not legal restriction, but the law is a separate issue logically and morally which I have no intent to argue here.) If the people in our society who identify as radical-left are so far from their former unanimity on the issue, then we may expect a “sea-change” is coming in public opinion, if all the efforts are continued. The moderates spend less effort than the radicals in thinking about principles and ideals, so they will take time to follow, but they can’t help but be influenced by those more consistent than themselves, in which case there is now pro-life propaganda coming at the moderate left from both ends!

I agree with the originator of this thread. It all comes down to whether the fetus is one of us, a human, or something of a different kind.
 
I suspect that this is a never-ending debate.
you are here, posting because you were not aborted. The debate is between sanctity of life and the indifference of excusion “by any means necessary.” To suspect a draw in this debate indicates ambivilence in your mind.

Maybe your issue is not so much about choice, Maybe it is about a notion of perceptual inconsequence of unexpected or inconvenient life. Pregnancy changes people. Contemporary, ever changing norms of the mom and dad in light of recognizing a real baby, versus the euphamistic lie of POC (unwanted tissue like a tumor or cyst)==is the foundation of your question. I hope you find peace. love, m…
 
Maybe your issue is not so much about choice, Maybe it is about a notion of perceptual inconsequence of unexpected or inconvenient life. Pregnancy changes people. Contemporary, ever changing norms of the mom and dad in light of recognizing a real baby, versus the euphamistic lie of POC (unwanted tissue like a tumor or cyst)==is the foundation of your question. I hope you find peace. love, m…
If that’s the case science has the answer. Science says the unborn is human. Here is one website that shows that, sfuhl.org/g_what_has_science_shown.htm .
 
you are here, posting because you were not aborted. The debate is between sanctity of life and the indifference of excusion “by any means necessary.” To suspect a draw in this debate indicates ambivilence in your mind.

Maybe your issue is not so much about choice, Maybe it is about a notion of perceptual inconsequence of unexpected or inconvenient life. Pregnancy changes people. Contemporary, ever changing norms of the mom and dad in light of recognizing a real baby, versus the euphamistic lie of POC (unwanted tissue like a tumor or cyst)==is the foundation of your question. I hope you find peace. love, m…
If you are interested…I am quite at peace. 🙂

I’m just being realistic with my comments about this being a never-ending debate. How many pages are in this thread? I suspect that two of the posters on this thread - ‘gearhead’ and ‘gakroeger’ - could go back and forth on this issue for months and still not have convinced the other of anything.
 
Just an anecdote:

From my limited perspective, it seems the pro-life position is slowly winning. There is no guarantee that the trends will continue, of course, but there has been a definite and noticeable trend towards understanding that a fetus is a complete human life, not merely a potential human life, and so deserving of same treatment as other humans.

To take one startling example, a couple months ago I came into a discussion in the park among a group of anarchists about abortion. It was about 50% pro-life, 50% pro-choice. (Obviously the pro-life anarchists would support only nonpunitive solutions and not legal restriction, but the law is a separate issue logically and morally which I have no intent to argue here.) If the people in our society who identify as radical-left are so far from their former unanimity on the issue, then we may expect a “sea-change” is coming in public opinion, if all the efforts are continued. The moderates spend less effort than the radicals in thinking about principles and ideals, so they will take time to follow, but they can’t help but be influenced by those more consistent than themselves, in which case there is now pro-life propaganda coming at the moderate left from both ends!

I agree with the originator of this thread. It all comes down to whether the fetus is one of us, a human, or something of a different kind.
I think this is true, that science seems to be showing that a fetus is indeed human. And I would not be surprised to, very slowly, see changes in the law that reflect this, because as you said, to most people to be human is the point. But I actually think that we might have to be careful on that point - is humanity the issue, or what it means to be human? If a person doesn’t believe in the soul, or the immortal soul, will he think shared humanity is anything more than a taxonomic distinction?

There is a school of thought which believes that humans are no different than other animals, do not have more intrinsic worth. Many such people are inclined to animal rights, and also pro-life positions at least for older fetuses. But another faction has more of a “law of the jungle” approach which would not see the humanity of the fetus as relevant in the discussion. These are the people who don’t believe in souls. However, so few people think this way, and it is so different than what most others think, I don’t see it being a political issue.

But, I see some stumbling blocks to political action.

I think it is much more difficult to convince people that the humanity of the embryo or zygote or soul exists in any meaningful way in early pregnancy. (I think this is where the distinction between being human and having a soul can be an issue.) The Church can teach this through faith, or through theology. But there isn’t an easy way to teach it to secular society because their secular education is often not good enough to understand the theological/philosophical language (who studies philosophy in public school these days?,) and they obviously won’t accept it as a matter of faith.

There is a tendency, which is by no means universal, for some pro-life groups to want all or nothing. So some groups won’t support political action that might put some limits on abortion because it leaves too much open. I think though that what we can expect politically is that things will change slowly, if they change, and one step will pave the way for others. The anti-smoking lobby is a group which has done this very effectivly.

I also think other life causes play into this - for example, if people die because they can’t afford medical care and the state doesn’t take action, it sets up a certain vision about what the state thinks about the worth of the lives of it’s citizens. If we think the unborn are also citizens, than we can expect similar thinking about them, and a similar way of valuing them.

And I think that there is a tendency among some pro-life people to not want any truck with those who they consider pro-choice, even when they agree on a particular issue. So when there actually might be a political force to recon with they are fragmented within themselves. So many who oppose abortion in any other instance think in extreme medical situations it should be up to the mother. And many others agree that third trimester abortions are wrong but perhaps don’t feel the same way about first trimester ones. Finding a way to work with such groups for common goals seems a good idea to me, but, it would mean not alienating them.

As long as the population is really fragmented on abortion, it is very difficult for politicians to take any action.
 
To take one startling example, a couple months ago I came into a discussion in the park among a group of anarchists about abortion. It was about 50% pro-life, 50% pro-choice. (Obviously the pro-life anarchists would support only nonpunitive solutions and not legal restriction, but the law is a separate issue logically and morally which I have no intent to argue here.)
If they didn’t support legal restrictions on abortion, then I’d say they’re pro-choice. Despite what people here have claimed, pro-choice really isn’t “pro-abortion”; it is “pro-choice”: it’s about allowing women the option to choose whether to have an abortion or not. It’s not a question of whether you think that abortion is a good thing or whether you’d have one yourself; it’s a question of whether you think that the law should prohibit abortion for everyone.

There are plenty of pro-choice people who would not get an abortion themselves, but still support the idea that the law should allow women who do choose them to receive them.

In a way, this is similar to the idea of freedom of religion. I have a feeling that many of the members here would say that any religion or denomination other than the Catholic Church is “correct”, but I strongly doubt that there would be very many people here who would seek to outlaw those other religions.
 
You know, something occurred to me. I’m not sure how I feel about it, but I thought I should throw it out there for discussion:

The Church is very strongly anti-abortion (obviously). The vast majority of practicing Catholics would not get an abortion themselves under any circumstance, regardless of the state of the law. The same is true for the members of a number of other mainstream Christian denominations.

This means that the “babies” that would be “saved” by making abortion illegal would be predominantly raised not by Catholics, and likely not by members of any other Christian denomination either.

These children will probably not have an upbringing in any sort of church that you see as “correct”, not receive any of the sacraments, and not be brought up to have faith in God or Christ.

If we take as given the whole of Catholic theology and not just its position on abortion in isolation, doesn’t this mean that most of the “children” whose lives would be saved by the anti-abortion movement would go on to lose their *souls *to Hell?

In your minds, does this factor into the abortion debate at all?

Again, like I said, I’m not sure how I feel about this. I’m just throwing it out for discussion.
 
You know, something occurred to me. I’m not sure how I feel about it, but I thought I should throw it out there for discussion:

The Church is very strongly anti-abortion (obviously). The vast majority of practicing Catholics would not get an abortion themselves under any circumstance, regardless of the state of the law. The same is true for the members of a number of other mainstream Christian denominations.

This means that the “babies” that would be “saved” by making abortion illegal would be predominantly raised not by Catholics, and likely not by members of any other Christian denomination either.

These children will probably not have an upbringing in any sort of church that you see as “correct”, not receive any of the sacraments, and not be brought up to have faith in God or Christ.

If we take as given the whole of Catholic theology and not just its position on abortion in isolation, doesn’t this mean that most of the “children” whose lives would be saved by the anti-abortion movement would go on to lose their *souls *to Hell?

In your minds, does this factor into the abortion debate at all?

Again, like I said, I’m not sure how I feel about this. I’m just throwing it out for discussion.
The right to life is a fundamental right of all people.
 
You know, something occurred to me. I’m not sure how I feel about it, but I thought I should throw it out there for discussion:

The Church is very strongly anti-abortion (obviously). The vast majority of practicing Catholics would not get an abortion themselves under any circumstance, regardless of the state of the law. The same is true for the members of a number of other mainstream Christian denominations.

This means that the “babies” that would be “saved” by making abortion illegal would be predominantly raised not by Catholics, and likely not by members of any other Christian denomination either.

These children will probably not have an upbringing in any sort of church that you see as “correct”, not receive any of the sacraments, and not be brought up to have faith in God or Christ.

If we take as given the whole of Catholic theology and not just its position on abortion in isolation, doesn’t this mean that most of the “children” whose lives would be saved by the anti-abortion movement would go on to lose their *souls *to Hell?

In your minds, does this factor into the abortion debate at all?

Again, like I said, I’m not sure how I feel about this. I’m just throwing it out for discussion.
No, I don’t think you could conclude that. It might be the case that some of those individuals might indeed make such choices later in life, but some won’t. And in the end the same is true of people brought up in households which have catholic religious values - the choice still will belong to the individual. But the opportunity to make that choice is one of the very primary gifts God gives to human beings.

Of course we are shaped in ways we don’t even know by our environment, especially as kids. And it seems to me that people are often restricted in some way by their experiences - an abused child may end up with something like BPD and never be able to fulfill his full potential in making his choices. I think God understands these limitations we find in ourselves though, and accounts for them.

We are, I think, culpable when we make choices that create such limitations in others.
 
You know, something occurred to me. I’m not sure how I feel about it, but I thought I should throw it out there for discussion:

The Church is very strongly anti-abortion (obviously). The vast majority of practicing Catholics would not get an abortion themselves under any circumstance, regardless of the state of the law. The same is true for the members of a number of other mainstream Christian denominations.

This means that the “babies” that would be “saved” by making abortion illegal would be predominantly raised not by Catholics, and likely not by members of any other Christian denomination either.

These children will probably not have an upbringing in any sort of church that you see as “correct”, not receive any of the sacraments, and not be brought up to have faith in God or Christ.

If we take as given the whole of Catholic theology and not just its position on abortion in isolation, doesn’t this mean that most of the “children” whose lives would be saved by the anti-abortion movement would go on to lose their *souls *to Hell?

In your minds, does this factor into the abortion debate at all?

Again, like I said, I’m not sure how I feel about this. I’m just throwing it out for discussion.
Hell is an interesting question to bring up. But it’s not our job to predict an outcome.
That can only put people in stasis. And possibly produce an Anthony Adverse effect. It would be “hellish” to live in a world where at every turn someone is promulgating every free action with “Yes, but…”

Also, for a believer, God’s mercy is alive and active. Only He knows the final outcome.
 
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selylidne:
To take one startling example, a couple months ago I came into a discussion in the park among a group of anarchists about abortion. It was about 50% pro-life, 50% pro-choice. (Obviously the pro-life anarchists would support only nonpunitive solutions and not legal restriction, but the law is a separate issue logically and morally which I have no intent to argue here.)
If they didn’t support legal restrictions on abortion, then I’d say they’re pro-choice.
Oh, they’re definitely not. Just note the term “anarchist”, which implies not seeking state-based solutions. So they’d prefer other methods of dealing with abortion and other crimes besides the use of prison and punishment, such as moral censure, shunning/ostracization, restitution, rehabilitation, etc. They’d also take direct action to prevent an abortion or other murder from taking place. There’s nothing pro-abortion-choice about that.

Many of the ladies I know from church who work with battered and vulnerable women take a very similar position. They’re some of the most active pro-life workers around, and they think it’s about rescuing children and women, and not about getting revenge or punishing women to teach them a lesson! Your definition of pro-choice is much too broad and seems calculated for rhetorical purposes to disguise the fact that so very many “pro-choice” activists are in fact pro-abortion.
 
Oh, they’re definitely not. Just note the term “anarchist”, which implies not seeking state-based solutions. So they’d prefer other methods of dealing with abortion and other crimes besides the use of prison and punishment, such as moral censure, shunning/ostracization, restitution, rehabilitation, etc. They’d also take direct action to prevent an abortion or other murder from taking place. There’s nothing pro-abortion-choice about that.
Except for the fact that they leave room open for a person to choose to have an abortion, so long as they’re okay with the societal fallout that results.

IMO, I would say that most anarchists, by definition, would probably be properly classified as “pro-choice”, despite their moral views on abortion. They may not be “pro-abortion”, but they probably are “pro-choice”, in the sense that they don’t support legally restricting the right of women to get abortions.

Edit: woudn’t you agree that the fact that they don’t support legally restricting people in any sense implies that they’re don’t support legally restricting people on the abortion issue specifically?
Your definition of pro-choice is much too broad and seems calculated for rhetorical purposes to disguise the fact that so very many “pro-choice” activists are in fact pro-abortion.
Regardless of whether you dislike my definition or not, it’s accurate. The pro-choice camp includes both people who think that abortion can be a positive thing and people who view it as generally negative but don’t want to impose their view on others through the law.

People who are pro-abortion would mostly fall into the category of “pro-choice”, but not always. For example, anyone who advocates eugenics through abortion of the “unfit” would certainly not be pro-choice.

From the pro-choice side, it really is about the woman’s legal right to choose, despite the rhetoric from the opposite side.

Edit: it occurs to me that the labels “pro-choice” and “pro-life” aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. A person who considers abortion to be wrong but doesn’t support legal prohibitions on it would probably be both pro-choice and “pro-life”.
 
You know, something occurred to me. I’m not sure how I feel about it, but I thought I should throw it out there for discussion:

The Church is very strongly anti-abortion (obviously). The vast majority of practicing Catholics would not get an abortion themselves under any circumstance, regardless of the state of the law. The same is true for the members of a number of other mainstream Christian denominations.

This means that the “babies” that would be “saved” by making abortion illegal would be predominantly raised not by Catholics, and likely not by members of any other Christian denomination either.

These children will probably not have an upbringing in any sort of church that you see as “correct”, not receive any of the sacraments, and not be brought up to have faith in God or Christ.

If we take as given the whole of Catholic theology and not just its position on abortion in isolation, doesn’t this mean that most of the “children” whose lives would be saved by the anti-abortion movement would go on to lose their *souls *to Hell?

In your minds, does this factor into the abortion debate at all?

Again, like I said, I’m not sure how I feel about this. I’m just throwing it out for discussion.
Fascinating point. I would put it this way. Catholics win by default if they follow their own teaching (we know that many who claim to be, or are baptized Catholic do not follow Church teaching) because they are the ones left populating. Kind of like the Israelites in Egypt. The Pharoah got worried that they were becoming too populous and would eventually rise up and take over.

This is somewhat the scenario in Europe with the Muslim population. They will eventually just out-populate the non-Muslims if things follow the current trajectory. Which also goes to show what is really going on with Catholics in Europe with respect to following Church teaching.

However, the children of non-Catholics, if they are born, are offered the same opportunity to receive the sacraments as children of Catholics. That is the point of evangelization, that is the meaning of the term “gospel”. Whether they accept the good news is their choice, also Church teaching, but they are not written off per se just because they are not born into a Catholic family. If that was the case there would be no Church today at all, because the Apostles would not have preached, and the Roman empire would passed into pagan oblivion without Christendom arising out of the ashes.

Church teaching on the innocence of the child (voluntary acts, not original sin) is also played out in the fact that any immoral act of the parents is not held against the child. This is an extension of the same teaching. That is to say, throughout history, a child born out of wedlock (the result of an immoral act in the eyes of the Church) is welcome to be baptized on condition that the child will be raised in the faith, by either the single mother or some other guardian. All baptisms of infants are supposed to be done on that same principle, by the way, recognizing the fact that the infant has not attained the age of reason. But although they have not attained the ability to feed themself or think rationally for themself, they are still a human person by virtue of their human soul and therefore can receive baptism, and clearly cannot be killed.

And that also gives the Catholic case for pro-life added authenticity in my opinion. It is not just about us vs them and preserving our group, because we believe in the sanctity of human life even if that human being grows up to be an atheist humanist, a Muslim, an agnostic or whatever. That individual person’s intrinsic value is their humanity, right from conception. On that, the Church is consistent and adamant. And by human we mean that unique, integrated body and soul, unlike any other living thing in heaven or on earth, and each unique individual case of that humanity which we call person.

(refering back to other posts) That is why the chromosome discussion is relevant to the extent that it is the scientific biological description of the individuation that we know physically as a person, although the personhood also contains that integrated soul which differentiates it as a human person as opposed to a hair, which is human, in the sense of a human artifact, and biologically unique to one human being. Personhood depends upon more than chromosomes, as you have pointed out, but it is the biological indicator that differentiates the child from the parents as a unique individual.

Leaving aside the question of the soul for a moment it is still disingenuous to compare that zygote shortly after conception to any other human artifact based upon the chromosomes, because left alone, that is a fetus, a baby, a child, a girl or boy, a woman or man. Left alone, a human hair is still a hair. The point is, there is a continuum from that point right to adulthood, and the continuum is that of a unique human person, however you define it. At any point along that continuum prior to adulthood, that adult, that autonomous rational human being is there in potentiality, whether it seems obvious or not. Thus the zygote, the fetus, the baby, the child are all the same adult in potentiality. It is a unique organic self-contained developing unit, all of its life. If it is not a human person in the womb at any point, it is not a human person as an adult. If it is not OK to kill it for our own convenience as an adult, it is not OK to kill it at any point along that continuum except prior to when it became that unique human individual. That point is conception because we know that is when the continuum started.
 
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