Pro Life versus Pro Choice Debate

[gearhead]

There are various levels of culpability, however, yes it would be immoral for a Catholic (or anyone else) to take a pragmatic position like “I am opposed to abortion, but it’s not a battle I can win right now”. They may not be required to take extra ordinary steps to fight abortion; however, to support it in any way either by voting for a pro choice candidate or verbally expressing their concurrence is a serious sin.

Even that I’m not so sure of.

I’ve never heard of an election where abortion was the only issue. If it came down to (as I think it has in recent years) voting for a candidate who is anti-abortion but in favour of a large-scale unjust war, or a candidate who is pro-choice but against the war, I don’t really see how someone could say that voting for the pro-choice candidate is clearly a serious sin.

Likewise if the choice is between two candidates whose claim to be “pro-life” and pro-choice, but are only paying lip-service to the abortion issue and neither one has any intent of changing the law, whatever the law happens to be.

That being said, in order for an individual to be guilty of serious sin they must know it is a serious sin and do it anyhow. As has been stated on this thread before, the way pro choice Catholics including Catholic politicians who support abortion have gotten around this is to claim they do not believe it to be wrong. This is an extremely dangerous position IMHO, God will be the judge. They are certainly defying Catholic Church teaching.

Would “defying Catholic Church teaching” be considered a serious sin itself?

 

[gakroeger]

Even that I’m not so sure of.

I’ve never heard of an election where abortion was the only issue. If it came down to (as I think it has in recent years) voting for a candidate who is anti-abortion but in favour of a large-scale unjust war, or a candidate who is pro-choice but against the war, I don’t really see how someone could say that voting for the pro-choice candidate is clearly a serious sin.

Likewise if the choice is between two candidates whose claim to be “pro-life” and pro-choice, but are only paying lip-service to the abortion issue and neither one has any intent of changing the law, whatever the law happens to be.

Would “defying Catholic Church teaching” be considered a serious sin itself?

If you truly want to understand, you need to read the information i give you. You answered so fast that you could not have possibly read the Catechism links I sent you. Please read them and then ask your questions.

 

[gearhead]

If you truly want to understand, you need to read the information i give you. You answered so fast that you could not have possibly read the Catechism links I sent you. Please read them and then ask your questions.

I’m interested in your arguments, not a list of links.

If the material in them isn’t important enough for you to phrase into a discussion, then I usually won’t consider it vital for me to chase after.

 

[gakroeger]

I’m interested in your arguments, not a list of links.

If the material in them isn’t important enough for you to phrase into a discussion, then I usually won’t consider it vital for me to chase after.

You need to read the rules on this forum. It would have been much easier for me copy and paste the Catechism paragraphs into the post, however, this is against forum rules. If you are not interested enough in facts and truth to read what is presented and you merely want to engage in circular argument (look back thru the previous posts most of your questions have already been addressed) I will not participate in that kind of debate.

If you want to read the Catechism paragraphs and you still have questions I will be glad to try to answer them.

 

[Worthy5]

You need to read the rules on this forum. It would have been much easier for me copy and paste the Catechism paragraphs into the post, however, this is against forum rules. If you are not interested enough in facts and truth to read what is presented and you merely want to engage in circular argument (look back thru the previous posts most of your questions have already been addressed) I will not participate in that kind of debate.

If you want to read the Catechism paragraphs and you still have questions I will be glad to try to answer them.

I looked at it. It is pretty clear that the Church teaching is that all abortion must (the word is used) have a penal penalty but does not elaborate on that. But nothing in there says that for one to be a faithful catholic you have to actively support or agree with the Church’s opinion on how the US law should treat all abortions. There is not enough there about what it means to one personally. Now there may be other areas of the CCC on that, if you have them great. I have a copy but no time to look now. Thanks

 

[Caramel]

Of course it is. The fact that you personally consider it an unacceptable choice doesn’t mean that the choice doesn’t exist.

Edit: by your statement, I assume that you oppose the Catholic Church’s positions on war and capital punishment, right?

I am glad she had me. I’m glad she had the choice to do it.

My mother was diagnosed with epilepsy as a teenager (incorrectly, as it turns out, but anyhow); in another place and time, she might’ve been forced to have an abortion. I’m certainly glad she had the freedom to have me.

My mother was diagnosed with Type I diabetes and told by her obstetrician to abort me. I am certainly glad that she was prolife 100% and that I was NEVER in any danger of induced abortion.

When I was pregnant with my daughter I was told by the obstetrician on duty to abort her as she would probably be born with serious birth defects. I felt extremely comfortable with the prolife position. Of course I would NEVER kill a child of mine. I didn’t hesitate for one second. I said “NO!!” Unfortunately she expired before birth, BUT AS A HUMAN BEING. SHE WAS A PERSON AND IS NOW A SAINT IN HEAVEN and there was nothing wrong with her. It was MY physical condition that caused the spontaneous abortion. Her life may have been brief but she still brought joy to my husband and myself, although we could never hold her in our arms, only in my womb and then in our hearts. She was always wanted and always loved and always considered precious. By us. The hospital personnel dissected her without our consent and then discarded her like a piece of trash.

 

[Benadam]

No, pro-choice really is pro-choice

.
If it were there wouldn’t be unwanted pregnancies.

 

[Caramel]

Come on Caramel, you are not typing that with a straight face. If you cannot see the legal issue at this point then no further discussion would matter. It is just a discussion.Thanks for your time and God Bless.

Thank you!! Thanks for your time and God bless you too!!

 

[Worthy5]

My mother was diagnosed with Type I diabetes and told by her obstetrician to abort me. I am certainly glad that she was prolife 100% and that I was NEVER in any danger of induced abortion.

When I was pregnant with my daughter I was told by the obstetrician on duty to abort her as she would probably

Your efforts and decision should be praised.

 

[Caramel]

Caramel

The only argument the pro choice people have is a legal argument. This is why they keep pushing to argue legalities, when debating the moral aspects of abortion they do not have a leg to stand on. Since many laws are immoral or being interpreted as immoral, arguing legalities is a losing battle for pro life. The law could (as abortion is) be legal but still wrong. This is why I keep trying to avoid the legalities of abortion.

I think you are correct and I have been trying to defer to your position as you are the OP. It doesn’t seem to make any difference. I personally am quite interested in the legal aspects but I am not prepared to debate them. I really wish someone would start a thread on the legalities because I would read the posts with great interest. I am not here to play games and make jokes, although I have been accused of that. I not only want to express my views; I am here to learn.

 

[gakroeger]

I think you are correct and I have been trying to defer to your position as you are the OP. It doesn’t seem to make any difference. I personally am quite interested in the legal aspects but I am not prepared to debate them. I really wish someone would start a thread on the legalities because I would read the posts with great interest. I am not here to play games and make jokes, although I have been accused of that. I not only want to express my views; I am here to learn.

Why don’t you start one?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Legal murder and ppl wonder why so many ppl cannot discern morals anymore.

Nevertheless; scriptures tell us that God knew us before we were in the womb. And they tell us HE knit us in the womb.

What more proof do you need that we were meant to be ~
and NO ONE BUT GOD has the choice to end our life?

It’s scary…

 

[WarriorAngel]

My mother was diagnosed with Type I diabetes and told by her obstetrician to abort me. I am certainly glad that she was prolife 100% and that I was NEVER in any danger of induced abortion.

When I was pregnant with my daughter I was told by the obstetrician on duty to abort her as she would probably be born with serious birth defects. I felt extremely comfortable with the prolife position. Of course I would NEVER kill a child of mine. I didn’t hesitate for one second. I said “NO!!” Unfortunately she expired before birth, BUT AS A HUMAN BEING. SHE WAS A PERSON AND IS NOW A SAINT IN HEAVEN and there was nothing wrong with her. It was MY physical condition that caused the spontaneous abortion. Her life may have been brief but she still brought joy to my husband and myself, although we could never hold her in our arms, only in my womb and then in our hearts. She was always wanted and always loved and always considered precious. By us. The hospital personnel dissected her without our consent and then discarded her like a piece of trash.

Aww, I am so sorry…
But God has your baby. So sorry they did that.

 

[Caramel]

Why don’t you start one?

Because I am not an attorney nor am I an expert in law. Maybe in a month, maybe in two months I can start to debate the legalities. But I’m not ready. I am reading some books about law in the abortion controversy but I haven’t gotten far enough into them to do a good job of discussing them. And I don’t think it’s fair to anyone else if a person who can’t debate a subject starts a thread on a subject.

Not you nor anyone else could ever understand how important the abortion issue is to me. I have had loved, wanted, precious life literally slip through my fingers into a toilet. Does anyone understand what that feels like? The tears and the sorrow and the pain, both mental and physical because when one loses a preborn child they must still deliver her.

I can’t do it now. I will do it when I can. And I’m sorry to post this but I will. I am typing now with tears running down my face because I miss my little girl - the little girl that I never got to raise to be a fully independent adult. I’ll never be able to hold her children. I know she is in heaven with God and I thank Him from the bottom of my heart for that. But it is just so so so hard to love someone and want someone and need someone so much and have her die so young. It broke my heart and I have never healed, not even after almost thirty years. The saddest thing of all is that she was an abortion. A spontaneous abortion, true, but still an abortion. That is what she was called. Not Elysia. She was trash, disposable and cut apart and dumped. But I carried her inside me and I knew her. I pray that I will see her in heaven and beg her forgiveness for not being healthy enough to carry her to term.

I believe in the sanctity of human life. I reel in horror from what I know is going on around me, even in this little town where I live. There is so much death when there could be so much love. All children are precious.

That is why the issue of abortion is so important to me. And that is why I won’t take the chance of starting a thread on a topic that I am not ready to discuss.

 

[gakroeger]

Because I am not an attorney nor am I an expert in law. Maybe in a month, maybe in two months I can start to debate the legalities. But I’m not ready. I am reading some books about law in the abortion controversy but I haven’t gotten far enough into them to do a good job of discussing them. And I don’t think it’s fair to anyone else if a person who can’t debate a subject starts a thread on a subject.

Not you nor anyone else could ever understand how important the abortion issue is to me. I have had loved, wanted, precious life literally slip through my fingers into a toilet. Does anyone understand what that feels like? The tears and the sorrow and the pain, both mental and physical because when one loses a preborn child they must still deliver her.

I can’t do it now. I will do it when I can. And I’m sorry to post this but I will. I am typing now with tears running down my face because I miss my little girl - the little girl that I never got to raise to be a fully independent adult. I’ll never be able to hold her children. I know she is in heaven with God and I thank Him from the bottom of my heart for that. But it is just so so so hard to love someone and want someone and need someone so much and have her die so young. It broke my heart and I have never healed, not even after almost thirty years. The saddest thing of all is that she was an abortion. A spontaneous abortion, true, but still an abortion. That is what she was called. Not Elysia. She was trash, disposable and cut apart and dumped. But I carried her inside me and I knew her. I pray that I will see her in heaven and beg her forgiveness for not being healthy enough to carry her to term.

I believe in the sanctity of human life. I reel in horror from what I know is going on around me, even in this little town where I live. There is so much death when there could be so much love. All children are precious.

That is why the issue of abortion is so important to me. And that is why I won’t take the chance of starting a thread on a topic that I am not ready to discuss.

Caramel

You are correct, no one can know your personal pain, however, this is the human condition, everyone has their own crosses to bear just as Christ did. Our first child was miscarried and I still remember that tramatic experiance even though it was 50 years ago. It was much worse for my wife then it was for me I think because she wanted that baby so badly. But God was good to us and we had 5 more children (4 boys and a girl). But even here there is pain, 3 of our children have remained faithful to God and their parents but two have abandoned us to the world, I have been praying everyday for many years to have them reconcile to their faith and their family and I am sure that some day God will resolve this pain one way or another, however, it is God’s will not ours.

 

[Benadam]

Not you nor anyone else could ever understand how important the abortion issue is to me. I have had loved, wanted, precious life literally slip through my fingers into a toilet. Does anyone understand what that feels like? The tears and the sorrow and the pain, both mental and physical because when one loses a preborn child they must still deliver her.

 

[gearhead]

You need to read the rules on this forum. It would have been much easier for me copy and paste the Catechism paragraphs into the post, however, this is against forum rules.

I said I was interested in your arguments. You copy-pasting stuff you didn’t write is not your argument. It’s one thing to cite supporting documents; it’s another to use them as a substitute for actually having to make your own points.

If you are not interested enough in facts and truth to read what is presented and you merely want to engage in circular argument (look back thru the previous posts most of your questions have already been addressed) I will not participate in that kind of debate.

Frankly, in retrospect I’m not really that interested. I was a bit curious about what spectrum of opinion might be considered to be “allowed” by the Church, but when it comes right down to it, the idea that supporting the pro-choice cause (which in the Catholic view includes not just therapeutic abortion but also clearly beneficial things like in vitro fertilization and stem cell research) is somehow immoral is IMO an indefensible and immoral position.

 

[Caramel]

Caramel

You are correct, no one can know your personal pain, however, this is the human condition, everyone has their own crosses to bear just as Christ did. Our first child was miscarried and I still remember that tramatic experiance even though it was 50 years ago. It was much worse for my wife then it was for me I think because she wanted that baby so badly. But God was good to us and we had 5 more children (4 boys and a girl). But even here there is pain, 3 of our children have remained faithful to God and their parents but two have abandoned us to the world, I have been praying everyday for many years to have them reconcile to their faith and their family and I am sure that some day God will resolve this pain one way or another, however, it is God’s will not ours.

I am so sorry for all your losses; sometimes it seems that hurt and pain are inevitable. But I really wish that we just did not have abortion - that it didn’t exist except in cases of risk of life to the mother. I wish that people would not hurt their children while they are hurting themselves. On another forum a proabort activist wrote a post to me in which she stated that there has never been a case of a woman mourning her lost child after having undergone an abortion. And I know that isn’t true. I’ve read a post from a woman who had undergone an abortion and then realized what she had done - she had killed her own child. She was literally in agony. She didn’t know what to do. She wanted to die but she knew that suicide would not solve her problems. She was so desperate and she was on the wrong forum because she needed help badly and wasn’t getting it there. I wish she had been on this forum. I think about her every now and then and I say a prayer for her. Abortion: One dead, one maimed.

We think we are so modern and smart and we become smug. Abortion is seen as a necessary evil. It’s seen as a form of birth control. It’s a tool used by unethical doctors who never believed in the Hippocratic Oath but just want to line their pockets with lots and lots and lots of money. It is seized upon by teenage girls who didn’t know what they were getting into when they had sex much too early in life and are afraid to tell their parents they are pregnant. It shows such a callous disregard for human life. It’s a trap and it’s a slippery slope. Now some people say they should have the right to kill a born infant or a toddler. I really don’t understand why this happened. But sometimes I think we are not going forward but instead backward in our morality. We are just so ^%($* smart that if we, as a people still don’t understand what human life is or what it is worth.

I am very tired. It has been hard for me to post what I did. I hope I didn’t give the impression that I am discounting anybody else’s pain. Spontaneous abortions and ectopic pregnancies, teratomas, etc…So much pain and death. Why do we add to it by intentionally snuffing out the lives of our own children?

Abortion is a terrible thing.

God bless you! You and your lost ones will be in my prayers tonight.

 

[CWBetts]

I said I was interested in your arguments. You copy-pasting stuff you didn’t write is not your argument. It’s one thing to cite supporting documents; it’s another to use them as a substitute for actually having to make your own points.

Frankly, in retrospect I’m not really that interested. I was a bit curious about what spectrum of opinion might be considered to be “allowed” by the Church, but when it comes right down to it, the idea that supporting the pro-choice cause (which in the Catholic view includes not just therapeutic abortion but also clearly beneficial things like in vitro fertilization and stem cell research) is somehow immoral is IMO an indefensible and immoral position.

Do you know why Embryonic Stem Cell research is so heavily dependent on federal funding? It is because the medical industry has recognized it as a dead end, and private funding can’t be found. Anything that required the death of innocents to further research is not acceptable. What if there was research that promised cures developed the brain stem of adults? Would it be OK to kill adults to harvest the cells. The Church draws no distinction between the two deaths, except that the unborn infant is truly innocent. IVF has multiple problems. One is that it separates the procreation from the sexual union, which is not how God intended us to reproduce. Another is that unused babies are killed, making this practice absolutely opposed to the moral law.

 

[Caramel]

Caramel;5858008:

My ex-wife was four and half months pregnant she said something was wrong , that something had changed with the baby she just couldn’t pin down or articulate what it was. A little later she told me she hadn’t felt the baby move in a while. We sat down on the couch to discuss whether or not what was happening was normal. I put my head against her belly and embraced it with my arm to feel our baby but I could only tell the there wasn’t activity in there. As we waited for movement or eneogh time to know we weren’t over reacting she drew in a quick breath as if she had just seen a car wreck. I asked , what!!! My stomach just went flat…I embraced her stomach again and the usual pressure was gone. That moment seemed suspended in time and meaning. I hadn’t been conscious of the feeling of my child’s presence untill I felt it pass away. I really experienced my baby’s soul here with us , on earth, and then rapidly become distant like a bird that flies over the horizon and out of view. Then our child was gone. Gone. It wasn’t just our pain of loss but I experienced what felt like a goodbye from her. She rapidly grew faint and distant , away, inclined upward, growing ever more far away in the sky. Then she was gone. Gone. I had never lost a child and even though I didn’t get to know this one when she passed I knew what it felt like to lose a child. Caramel my heart reaches out to you because I know how much more the loss must be having to experience your child’s passing physically from your body as well as from your presence.

Oh Wow. I am so sorry. My heart goes out to you and your wife. I just don’t know what to write here. I’m amazed at your experience of being aware of her soul. You know of course that while it felt like a goodbye it was really kind of “see you later in heaven.” It will be a wonderful day when we are reunited with those we have lost, not just our children but our parents and siblings and friends. It gives me comfort to know that Elysia is in heaven and is not hurting and will never die again, just like your daughter. But, as you are well aware, it still hurts…

God bless you!!