"Pro-Lifers are Hypocrites"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sbee0 said:
I’d say the number of pro lifers who “only care about children before they’re born” is quite close to zero.
Click to expand...
The problem is that “pro-life” from a religious standpoint is NOT the same as “pro-life” from a Republican standpoint.
For example, the Catholic Church supports universal health care. It is a fundamental component of pro-life. So is welfare, food stamp programs, foster care programs, etc.

Here’s why I became “limited” pro-choice:
  1. The Catholic platform of pro-life is both illogical and unsustainable. For example, being against contraception and against abortion are mutually contradictory positions. Such a platform cannot succeed. If the Church changed and supported sex education and contraception and family planning, and lobbied for major increased funding of foster care and adoption assistance, we may start to get somewhere.
  2. The Republican platform of pro-life is hypocritical and laughable. It is a scam to get the votes of the religious. Just read the history of the moral majority and the Republican party. Who can seriously kill healthcare and be called pro-life? What a scam. Just look at the statistics - abortion rate of change INCREASES under Republican administrations.
The reason I say “limited” pro-choice is because I don’t support abortion. We should do everything we can to stop it - but making it illegal without appropriate supporting alternatives is not going to solve the problem. You don’t want to go down the same path as Prohibition. That is where we are headed.
 
goout said:
The pro life community is the one doing the hard work of adoption and social justice.
The accusation of non-compassion is a tired canard.
Click to expand...
Do you support universal healthcare or not?
Do you support increased funding of welfare and social programs or not?
Do you support environmental regulation for safe drinking water and food or not?
 
LateCatholic said:
The Catholic platform of pro-life is both illogical and unsustainable. For example, being against contraception and against abortion are mutually contradictory positions. Such a platform cannot succeed. If the Church changed and supported sex education and contraception and family planning, and lobbied for major increased funding of foster care and adoption assistance, we may start to get somewhere.
Click to expand...
There are other solutions that can be used instead and the Church isn’t bound to support this one option if something else is just as suitable. Now depending on what Sex Education means in detail it isn’t necessarily opposed.
 
Last edited:
goout said:
The pro life community is the one doing the hard work of adoption and social justice.
The accusation of non-compassion is a tired canard.
Click to expand...
Just stop. So wrong you are embarrassing yourself.

How many unwanted babies have you brought into your home as foster children?
How many have you adopted?
How many unwanted, special needs or mixed race children have you brought into your home?
What have you ACTIVELY done to support the adoption and foster care process?
How many at-risk pregnant women/families have you directly worked with to support their journey both during pregnancy and afterwards?
How much money have you donated or given to DIRECT support of pregnant women at risk?
How many adopted/foster pre-teens do you DIRECTLY support as they go through the emerging psychological challenges of being given up by their biological parents?

I am pro-choice, and I will put my answers to the above against ANYONE.
 
midori said:
They’re super-easy to care for before they’re born! 😛 They’re super-portable, they’re on an automatic feeder, you don’t have any diapers, their wake/sleep schedule doesn’t affect you too much…
Click to expand...
With all due respect, you perhaps have not dealt with at-risk pregnant mothers. IE, drug addicts, those in poverty, violent boyfriends/fathers, etc. Not so easy taking care of the unborn in those cases.
 
LateCatholic said:
How many unwanted babies have you brought into your home as foster children?
How many have you adopted?
How many unwanted, special needs or mixed race children have you brought into your home?
What have you ACTIVELY done to support the adoption and foster care process?
How many at-risk pregnant women/families have you directly worked with to support their journey both during pregnancy and afterwards?
How much money have you donated or given to DIRECT support of pregnant women at risk?
How many adopted/foster pre-teens do you DIRECTLY support as they go through the emerging psychological challenges of being given up by their biological parents?
Click to expand...
These are not things just any random person can do NO MATTER HOW BADLY THEY WOULD LIKE TO because not everyone is given the gifts needed to fulfill the roles. I say this as a teacher, bio mom, adopted mom, and foster mom. If someone who does not have the gifts needed to fulfill those roles attempts to take them on, often things go very poorly and lives are greatly harmed.

There are reasons that foster and adoptive parents are thoroughly screened and many are rejected. It is not for everyone. I honestly believe even more people should be vetted out than currently are.
 
Last edited:
VanitasVanitatum said:
So, by sex education what exactly does that mean in your terms.?
Click to expand...
Well, obviously there’s plenty of “don’t have sex until you are married” in Catholic schools. The problem is that the REST of the sexual landscape is so avoided and/or ignored that the message of abstinence is completely lost because kids do not respect the Church’s message.

True story: In 7th grade, we read a short paragraph on homosexuality in health class. It was declared immoral and wrong. Don’t do it. It was honestly new to me. My parents avoided sexual discussions like the plague. I was fascinated. So you are telling me that there are boys that like boys, and girls that like girls, the same way I as a boy like girls? But…I can’t help the way I feel, so clearly they can’t. I mean, why would a boy want to like another boy, unless they couldn’t help it? So, Sister Mary Francis, why is homosexuality wrong?

I kid you not, the good sister began to cry and didn’t say anything. The next day I was called down to the principal’s office and my mother was there. I shouldn’t ask such questions. At that point in time I knew then and there that these people have no idea what they are talking about.

– That was obviously quite some time ago. However, from what I am told, it has gotten far worse, specifically because of the concern for any misconceptions and legal risk regarding the pedophilia scandals of the past decades.

We need REAL sex education. All of it.
 
13pollitos said:
These are not things just any random person can do NO MATTER HOW BADLY THEY WOULD LIKE TO because not everyone is given the gifts needed to fulfill the roles. I say this as a teacher, bio mom, adopted mom, and foster mom. If someone who does not have the gifts needed to fulfill those roles attempts to take them on, often things go very poorly and lives are greatly harmed.
Click to expand...
But if a person cannot take on the above responsibilities, for whatever reason, don’t you see why it angers others when those people preach?
Being pro-choice is not being pro-abortion, and pro-choice is not anti-life.

It is easy to tell an at-risk mother to carry her baby to term and change her entire life. But it is hard to respect such preaching if the person doing the preaching isn’t willing to step up and help.
 
LateCatholic said:
We need REAL sex education. All of it.
Click to expand...
Maybe back in your day, but things have changed now. I’d be surprised if most teens would be that ignorant with the internet and all. When I was in school, they talked about such frequently and our classes did go through the “REST” in health class.
 
Last edited:
VanitasVanitatum said:
they talked about such frequently and our classes did go through the “REST” in health class.
Click to expand...
That’s good. But I think with the pedophile scandal and the disdain for homosexuality and policies against contraception, messages of abstinence are not taken seriously.
I think the biggest issue is contraception.
I mean, to claim that condoms are evil just makes the Church’s message laughable. Really.
If the Church had a realistic approach to family planning, people would take the message more seriously. Don’t 98% of Catholics disagree with the Church on contraception? If so, does anyone really think the Catholic position is respected?
 
Last edited:
LateCatholic said:
I mean, to claim that condoms are evil just makes the Church’s message laughable. Really.
If the Church had a realistic approach to family planning, people would take the message more seriously. Don’t 98% of Catholics disagree with the Church on contraception? If so, does anyone really think the Catholic position is respected?
Click to expand...
Being pro-life isn’t limited to Catholicism so whether the Church’s stance is respected or not, one can arrive through the same conclusion on abortion through different means.
 
LateCatholic said:
But it is hard to respect such preaching if the person doing the preaching isn’t willing to step up and help.
Click to expand...
There is a huge difference between unwilling and unable. Most people are willing to do all they can, but as anyone who is involved in foster and adoption care knows, going beyond your abilities is more damaging than learning to say no. You have to know your on limits before you can teach anyone else to set limits.

Most people are more than happy to help someone find the resources they need and to be there for them in ways they are able. Most of the at risk moms I’ve met do not want foster or adoptive parents for their babies. They want to parent themselves, and that is exactly what should be encouraged. Helping them find the resources they need to make that happen is about all most people are able to do. I don’t know any pro life person that purposefully turns their back on someone in need. Most will at a bare minimum make phone calls to agencies to track down whatever help is needed.

Most moms do not want foster or adoptive parents for their children. They want to parent themselves and that should be supported and encouraged. Adoption and foster care are not ideal at all. Most moms that opt to carry their babies go on to parent themselves. That is another reason I question the calls for foster and adoptive parents to step up to take babies in response to abortion. It’s been my experience that the vast majority of kids in the foster/adoption eligible community were not “nearly aborted” kids. Most of Their mothers didn’t consider abortion for them. They were often very much wanted, even if they were unplanned. Often the problems that lead to them being taken into states custody had nothing to do with poverty or lack of resources. Often it is mental illness, abuse by a step parent/live in boyfriend, addiction, etc. Most foster kids will be reunited with birth family/extended family.

The moms that choose adoption for their newborns rarely think of abortion first. Most knew from the beginning abortion wasn’t an option. Many go back and forth between adoption and parenting, but abortion doesn’t cross their minds. Abortion and adoption are normally completely unrelated.
 
13pollitos said:
The moms that choose adoption for their newborns rarely think of abortion first.
Click to expand...
The challenge is the moms that think abortion first.
I’m not sure what you are trying to get across.
To reduce abortions:
  1. Provide and promote family planning
  2. Provide and promote financial aid, healthcare and support for pregnant woman AND mothers
  3. Provide and promote financial aid for adoption as an alternative to abortion
Catholics do not do the first.
Republicans do not do the second.
Neither Catholics nor Republicans do the third.

Before you challenge the last statement (the first two are obvious), if you were a foster or adoptive parent through Catholic Family Services, how much did it cost you? If you were a foster or adoptive parent through the state, how much did it cost you?
 
LateCatholic said:
To reduce abortions:
  1. Provide and promote family planning
  2. Provide and promote financial aid, healthcare and support for pregnant woman AND mothers
  3. Provide and promote financial aid for adoption as an alternative to abortion
Catholics do not do the first.
Republicans do not do the second.
Neither Catholics nor Republicans do the third.
Click to expand...
I am not convinced that any of those things listed would end abortions. I am not even completely convinced that they would significantly reduce abortions.

Catholics do promote family planning, even if it’s not with the methods you prefer. Natural Family Planning is what Catholics promote. Most non Catholic prolife advocates promote other forms of birth control. So there are options from pro lifers when it comes to that.

I am not sure what you mean specifically about financial aid. I know of many places that provide free diapers and wipes, baby equipment, clothing for mom and baby, toys, formula, bottles, baby food, etc. Some of those places are Catholic, most or interdenominational programs. St. Vincent de Paul is a Catholic organization that helps with bill pay, rent, etc. as well as low cost and often times free households goods. I have known the Knights of Columbus to provide services such as plumbing, home repairs, yard work, and much more free of charge. The council at one of the local parishes even gives scholarships for schooling (college, trade or certificate programs) a few times a year. The scholarships are renewable as well.

Depending on where a person lives, there are many options for free or reduced price healthcare. A community I used to live in had a group of catholic doctors that opened a free clinic for the uninsured. They partnered with the Catholic hospital to expand services that were available to their patients. These were mainly the working poor that fell through the cracks. They didn’t qualify for medical cards but could not afford insurance. They are still in operation. Apparently Obamacare wasn’t enough to help the ones most in need of healthcare. County health departments also provide healthcare on a sliding scale fee. Most partner with hospitals that make payment plans and often forgive amounts owed for those that cannot afford to pay.

Financial aid for adoption for the birth mom or the adoptive parents? The mother never pays to place her child. Are you suggesting she should be paid? I’m not sure I understand.

I know some couples will arrange private adoptions for infants. Often the adoptive parents pay all the costs of pregnancy and sometime provide for housing costs. I don’t know much about private adoptions. I do know there are far more people seeking to adopt newborns than there are babies waiting to be adopted. We didn’t adopt newborns so I don’t know about the process or fees that go along with that. But there are already so many waiting that will never get a baby, so how is that preventing abortion? Having more waiting will help how?
 
LateCatholic said:
Before you challenge the last statement (the first two are obvious), if you were a foster or adoptive parent through Catholic Family Services, how much did it cost you? If you were a foster or adoptive parent through the state, how much did it cost you?
Click to expand...
My kids were adopted through the state. We have never dealt with any private or Catholic agency so I cannot speak about that. I’m sure you different states have rules that differ from other states. I have fostered in two states and adopted in a third. Full disclosure—my kids were a relative’s children and we adopted when her rights were terminated. We had them for a couple years before they were officially adopted. It did not cost us one cent, but we also never received financial help from the state for taking them either.

The non relative fosters have also been through the state. These were not adoption eligible placements and all returned to their parents. We were planning to adopt again but were surprised with two biological babies we thought we couldn’t have. So adopting is on hold. We are moving to another state next month and have not decided yet about fostering there. After we settle in we might apply.
 
I sometimes muse over the deep cynicism of the word “family planning” when actually it is about not having a family, killing your family even.

When I cut my grass, I say I’m doing forestry planning.
When I brush my teeth, I’m doing tooth decay planning.
When I pay into my pension fund, I’m doing old age poverty planning.
When I talk to my financial adviser from my bank, I’m doing bankrupcy planning.
When I encourage my children to work hard at school I’m doing life failure planning.
When I cook or eat, I’m doing starvation planning.
When I do sports, I’m doing obesity planning.
 
Last edited:
Cirdan_XII said:
I sometimes muse over the deep cynicism of the word “family planning” when actually it is about not having a family, killing your family even.
Click to expand...
Cynicism? I guess. Of course the loving and morally perfect God of Christianity that hates abortion has murdered 37 million people according to the Bible.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top