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Ruthyankees
Guest
also, the title of this thread couldn’t be more true now.
- Status
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Debora123
Guest
You are quick to jump to conclusions and assumptions about me and what I believe, and I sense hostility, zealousness, arrogance, and mockery towards me on your part. Thus I will no longer respond to your posts.
I have made my stance clear and you disagree… which is fine, we can agree to disagree.
Good bye.
PS - I don’t go by “deb”. Huge pet peeve of mine, actually.
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Debora123
Guest
I’m sorry to hear that, but I pretty much don’t blame you. Hopefully you will find a more positive experience with Catholicism elsewhere.
I guess I should bow out of this thread before I get too involved and end up behaving in a way I will regret. You definitely don’t need to witness anymore of that type of behavior from Christians.
God Bless.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Ruth, just to clarify:
Practicing Catholics who know their faith are supposed to be guided by their Church’s interpretation of both Hebrew and Christian scripture.
Thus, that’s why you may hear Catholics refer to ‘private interpretation of scripture,’ which is something that is not practiced in observant Catholicism, but is practiced, allowed in Protestant traditions. (I know you’re not Protestant! )Here are some authentically Catholic discussions of the Onan references:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5481214
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=36172
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9704chap.asp
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CEM5
Guest
in Deut 23:1 God condemns sterilization and those who do so will not be allowed into the assembly of the Lord
1 No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord.
Any form of “mutilization” was wrong, and today so many people “mutilate” their bodies with the contraceptive practice of ‘sterilization’.
As for Onan, Debora, you are mistaken:
Gen 38:9-10
9 But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. 10 What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.
He was put to death not for unfulfilling his obligation, but for purposely spilling his seed in vain - a form of contraceptive practice of “coitus interruptus”.
See, in Deut. 25, it states that if the man refuses his obligation to his dead brother’s wife, he will not be put to death, rather, he will be disgraced.
5 When brothers reside together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband’s brother shall go in to her, taking her in marriage, and performing the duty of a husband’s brother to her, 6 and the firstborn whom she bears shall succeed to the name of the deceased brother, so that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. 7 But if the man has no desire to marry his brother’s widow, then his brother’s widow shall go up to the elders at the gate and say, “My husband’s brother refuses to perpetuate his brother’s name in Israel; he will not perform the duty of a husband’s brother to me.” 8 Then the elders of his town shall summon him and speak to him. If he persists, saying, “I have no desire to marry her,” 9 then his brother’s wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, pull his sandal off his foot, spit in his face, and declare, “This is what is done to the man who does not build up his brother’s house.” 10 Throughout Israel his family shall be known as “the house of him whose sandal was pulled off.”
So, Onan could have refused marriage to his sister-in-law, but he instead married her and thought to refuse the obligation of giving her a child by using this contraceptive (deceptive) method instead. Therefore, God put him to death for spilling his seed in vain.
NFP does not separate the full marital embrace of the married couple. There is always the chance that a child will be produced, and the couple should be open to this possibility. Onan was not open to this and proved it by his actions.
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roads152
Guest
We read and understand novels and their likes. They are for entertainment. Their authors’ purpose is to amuse readers.
We read and understand codes or laws and their likes. They are meant for our guidance in intermingling with everyone in society.
We read, understand and meditate on the Word of God. God’s Word is meant for our guidance in our relationship with God and with our fellow human beings. It is for this reason that the account about Onan was not recommended for mere reading but rather for meditation in my first post in this thread.
Ruth’s disappointment can probably be traced to lack of meditation on the Genesis account regarding Onan.
We read and understand codes or laws and their likes. They are meant for our guidance in intermingling with everyone in society.
We read, understand and meditate on the Word of God. God’s Word is meant for our guidance in our relationship with God and with our fellow human beings. It is for this reason that the account about Onan was not recommended for mere reading but rather for meditation in my first post in this thread.
Ruth’s disappointment can probably be traced to lack of meditation on the Genesis account regarding Onan.
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Good_Daughter
Guest
Ouch on the pneumonia in August, a summer cold is bad enough! Here’s hoping you’re feeling better soon. I’m probably going to regret posting this too…
There’s nothing inherently wrong with preventing births. Catholicism sometimes considers prevention prudent for married couples as part of responsible parenthood.
Catholic theology doesn’t rely on scriptural proof texts, but it is good to see how scripture is consistent with Catholic teaching.
Repetition tends to indicate importance in scripture. Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, And Ephesians 5:31 all talk about marriage, saying that a husband and wife ‘become one flesh’. Of course, there are many levels to this kind of union (spiritual, emotional, physical, etc.). The physical aspect of this ‘one flesh union’ is something Catholicism seeks to protect by prohibiting physical contraception. In other words, contracepting physically violates the physical aspect of the union that God intends husband and wives to share.
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John_oxios
Guest
hello RuthY,
First of all I wish a speedy recovery. Even in the Church there are issues in which the community can’t agree, that’s why we appeal to our hierarchy.
But you started out with “I’m probably going to regret posting this…” so you knew what to expect. I meant no harm towards you, I tend to get immersed in what I post, my apologies. We can agree to disagree… Your a Jew for Jesus, and you have your way of interpreting scripture (that is by the way your Tradition) And our Church as teaching authority has it’s.
The beauty of these discussions is to dig deeper into scripture, and learn from each other. For some they can’t see it on a page spelled out, spiritual blindness, others see shadows or trees that look like men… and then we begin to see clearly.
We are all on different points on the path towards Salvation, and if you don’t understand something Well? It don’t hurt to start a discussion you’ll probably regret…The importance of it we all learn. I can’t bring you faith, I can’t get you to change your religion (nor you mine) That the Holy Spirit does… but we can reason it out the scriptures and learn to understand Our Religions.
By the way In Judaism , medieval times it was a grave sin for a man to waste his seed, but rabbinic law allowed the woman to practice contraception with a ‘moch’
God bless,
John
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Soldier_Of_God
Guest
That’s not the same as abortion in some people minds. From a modern perspective, they are not equivalent, even to some Catholics. There are a number of scriptural passages that support this difference. For instance, here is a passage from Exodus:
Uhhh… thy shall not kill???
And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot… (Exodus 21:22-24)
It would appear the that causing death to a fetus is not a serious crime when compared to causing significant injury or death to another person.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
For Ruth: I forget to add another thread discussion to my list in post 143. (This one is recent.)
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=226388
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=226388
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John_oxios
Guest
Hi Deb,
Spoken like someone who’s only heard the pro-abortion side of Christianity, not Catholicism. Are you Catholic?? Or do you follow a different church theology? Contraception? not biblical? Now abortion? not biblical??? You have a twisted view of the Bible. ** All life is Sacred.**
What you describe as pro abortion biblical excuse, is taken totally out of the context it is written in/ for.
This Law is for an accidental injury, as in a woman falling down a flight of stairs not intentional!!! In fact the context of Ex 21: 12- 32 is about personal injury, so** the fact that the law is written as ‘causing a miscarriage’ and a judgement is to be made they considered a crime to injure a woman while pregnant and causing a miscarriage.
**
The fine/ punishment made by the judges hasn’t been stated, they reserved judgment on a case by case basis. but he shall ‘Surely be Fined’ because he has done harm… today we call it compensation. Eye for an eye is not a literal ‘eye for an eye’ it never was nor was it ever to be. It’s about making good for the life you have taken… compensation for a loss in accidental cases. People not in the know use this expression to justify revenge.
There was capital punishment for murder, and that’s because the murderer was found guilty of not recognizing the image of God in the person he killed, therefore he acted like a beast and was sentenced as such.
Even to some Catholics? Like the politicians who say their catholic so they can ‘get’ your vote?
Life begins @ conception,
- The Bible teaches that human life is different from other types of life, because human beings are made in the very image of God.
The prophet Amos condemns the Ammonites “because they ripped open expectant mothers in Gilead” (Amos 1:13).
Amo 1:13 Thus says the LORD: "For three transgressions of the Ammonites, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment; because they have ripped up women with child in Gilead, that they might enlarge their border.
- The Bible teaches that children are a blessing.
“Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward” (Psalm 127:3). - The Bible teaches that the child in the womb is truly a human child, who even has a relationship with the Lord.
God knows the preborn child. “You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret” (Psalm 139:13,15). God also helps and calls the preborn child. “You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God” (Psalm 22:11-12). “God . . . from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace” (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).
- Scripture repeatedly condemns the killing of the innocent.
Read some more
get the Catholic view
ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/PFLBIBLE.HTM
God bless,
John
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John_oxios
Guest
Hi Debra,I’m sorry to hear that, but I pretty much don’t blame you. Hopefully you will find a more positive experience with Catholicism elsewhere.
I guess I should bow out of this thread before I get too involved and end up behaving in a way I will regret. You definitely don’t need to witness anymore of that type of behavior from Christians.
God Bless.
He’s no witness for Catholics… We were the original Jews for Jesus.
He’s just trying to dump his Traditions and impose them on us.
The Bible says :
Eph 3:10 **that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers **in the heavenly places.
and that we learn how we ought to behave in
1Ti 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
it’s not an individual but the Church, bible says if you see someone acting unlike Christ, get a buddy and speak with him, and if that avails nothing bring the matter to the Church.
Mat 18:15- 17 "If your brother sins against you,** go and tell him his fault**, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
A protestant will tell you where two or three are gathered that’s like a church… but that’s not biblical… Biblically to a Jew “where two or three gathered theTorah was there in the midst of them.”
The only positive experience he’ll have is when he studies Church history and converts.
To Know Church history, is to cease to be protestant." (Cardinal Neuman)
God bless,
John
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John_oxios
Guest
Hi Debra, (or ought I say,'Quien no Sabe, aka ‘the lone Ranger’)
Code:
Actually all Church's taught the same till 1930, they changed, Catholicism held to the truth. All you need to do is read the Jewish Commentary on Gen 38, they are the original teachers of the Hebrew Scriptures, and the Church is in agreement with that teaching, 1900 yrs later our protestant influenced Govn't. persuaded their peers to change their minds and influence their congregations. But as Catholics we answer to a higher authority.
Here we go applying today's technology with a 3,800 yr. old biblical lesson.and not as accurate as today more modern method. You had to predict when what day you were most likely to ovulate, When used imperfectly there was an 84% of pregnancy. and let’s face it nobody’s perfect!
That’s a monumental difference in 1800 yrs.
God bless,
John
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John_oxios
Guest
Code:
Biblically it is a sin for man to waste his seed.Strong’s #H7843 ‘shachath’
- to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay
a) (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt, be injured, be ruined, be rotted
b) (Piel) - to spoil, ruin
- to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
c) (Hiphil) - to spoil, ruin, destroy
- to pervert, corrupt (morally)
- destroyer (participle)
d) (Hophal) spoiled, ruined (participle)
AV — destroy 96x , corrupt 22x ,** mar 7**x, destroyer 3, corrupters 2, waster 2, spoilers 2, battered 1, corruptly 1, misc 11
to ‘waste’ or ‘destroy’ are pretty strong words for something held as insignificant, as in the context of these ex same word used in Gen 38:9:
Gen 6:11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen 6:12 And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
Gen 6:17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to** destroy** all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die.
Gen 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and saw that the Jordan valley was well watered everywhere like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, in the direction of Zo’ar; this was before the LORD** destroyed** Sodom and Gomor’rah.
Gen 18:28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking? Wilt thou** destroy** the whole city for lack of five?" And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.”
Gen 19:29 So it was that, when God** destroyed** the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in which Lot dwelt.
The Onan destroying his seed by wasting it, is seen in the same biblical light as destruction of whole cities communities and even the planet when destroyed by thegreat flood…
I can use about another 150+ vss. as other examples. It was a grave seen for a Jew under Jewish Law until the last 50 yrs, or so, for a male to waste his seed. and then???
why the Change?? Under Torah/ Talmud today a Jewish couple has fulfilled their obligation to go forth and multiply with a male and female child.
Wouldn’t a man or a woman in a marriage find it deceptive, even offensive, if they pretended to want to have a child and doing everything they could to prevent it without the others knowledge? that would be a wrong, Correct???
My Bible says all wrongs are sin
1Jo 5:17 'All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal."
God bless,
John
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John_oxios
Guest
This would be your opinion, not sound reasoning of Biblical words, based on Hebraic meanings… everybody has an opinion that’s why ‘sola scriptura’ does not work. Biblically and historically everyone who claimed to be a prophet had to prove that it was God who sent the message, when a prophet spoke in the name of the Lord it came to pass. Christ left a teaching authority to stand in his earthly place until His return, so we would not be like sheep without a shepherd.
There are men and women of God who have sacrificed their lives to the study of the Bible in the solitude of the Church for all the centuries since Christ… your opinion is going against some of the most learned and holy people since Christ, me I’m gonna have to side with the Church. By 2002 I have logged over 4 thousand hrs of biblical study, (no degrees, but stopped counting) but nonetheless… I’ve done lots of listening, research, study and plenty of homework, and, I, don’t consider myself an authority… the more you learn about the Bible, is to realize how much you don’t know about the Bible, or will ever know… it’s ongoing lesson and journey.
Just when ya think ya got it… the Holy Spirit opens another door!
Rumor has it that the knowledge of God you possess here is the only thing you get to take with you… Paul writes about receiving five crowns (rewards) in heaven… That’s what I’m aiming for!!!
see Num 27:15 - 23,
and compare with Matt 16:13-20, also JoHN 21:17-19, and Acts 1:17-26
God bless,
John
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CopticChristian
Guest
Try this. I have heard her before. She is easy to listen to and draws good conclusions.
catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&event=6839&date=2011-07-15
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CopticChristian
Guest
The Bible and Birth Control by Charles D. Provan, written by a Protestant takes you through a Biblical perspective against Birth Control.
The Following website has numerous bible passages that relate.
scripturecatholic.com/contraception.html
Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful (“fertile”) and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God’s plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.
Gen. 28:3 - Isaac’s prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.
Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground.
Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God’s command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.
Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.
Gen. 38:9 - also, the author’s usage of the graphic word “seed,” which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan’s death.
Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God’s plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.
Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).
Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.
Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God’s Revelation, but the moral and natural law.
Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.
1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring “not your will God, but my will be done.”
Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God’s precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.
Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.
Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.
Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God’s will. With contraception, a couple declares, “God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no.” Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.
Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.
Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God’s ability to “join” together. Just as Christ’s love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife’s love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.
Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.
Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.
1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.
1 Cor. 7:5 - this verse supports the practice of natural family planning (“NFP”). Married couples should not refuse each other except perhaps by agreement for a season, naturally.
Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.
Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.
There is more, however 6000 character is the limit
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CopticChristian
Guest
Then you haven’t seen my response and you haven’t read The Bible and Birth Control by Provon, a Protestant like yourself.
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CopticChristian
Guest
You respond in many posts that you are a jew. The question is about contraception. You deny being Protestant or Orthodox, just a Jew. You asked the question you thought you would regret. I regret to ask you what your understanding of contraception is as a Jew?
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John_oxios
Guest
Now you’re playing semantics, no it doesn’t say ‘Contraception’ which is ** the deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation by any of various drugs, techniques, or devices; birth control.**
Biblically it says we are to pro-create, where does that include contraception???
Confession not in the Bible??? Than what was the purpose of sacrificing animals for sins committed as a guilt offering??
Your like the pharisee who stands in the front thanking God he’s not like that sinner in the back, and the sinner in the back is beating his chest, in sorrow for his sin, and feels the guilt of it by remaining in the back feeling unworthy to approach the front of the Temple.
Did you or did you not confess Christ as Lord, God’s Word incarnate??? That’s a confession, but if you did not announce it, or tell someone/ share that then it is nothing. Like a lamp under a bed? or a lamp without oil?
Jhn 7:4 For no man works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.
Our secrets make us sick, Jesus abhorred the hidden things Your sin will find you out
Num 32:23 But if you will not do so, behold, you have sinned against the LORD; and be sure your sin will find you out.
better too confess than to wait and get caught.
here’a a some biblical verses;
Lev 5:5 When a man is guilty in any of these, he shall confess the sin he has committed,
Lev 5:8 He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first the one for the sin offering
Num 5:7 he shall confess his sin which he has committed; and he shall make full restitution for his wrong, adding a fifth to it, and giving it to him to whom he did the wrong.
the Psalmist writes:
Psa 38:17 For I am ready to fall, and my pain is ever with me.
Psa 38:18 I confess my iniquity, I am sorry for my sin.
Code:
Unconfessed sin makes our hearts hard, and guilt can carry over to bring on mental and physical ill health... confession biblically is good for the mind, body and soul..Eze 12:16 But** I will let a few of them escape from the sword**, from famine and pestilence,** that they may confess all their abominations among the nations where they go, and may know that I am the LORD."**
Sorry, but you don’t have a leg to stand on stating Confession to a priest is unbiblical!
And by the way, we don’t confess to the priest, we confess to God through the priest, and the priest is there to help us celebrate God’s forgiveness in the absolution of our confessed sin.
God bless,
John
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